MM7: Rogue: Hardest basic promotion in the game?

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UndeadHalfOrc
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MM7: Rogue: Hardest basic promotion in the game?

Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Jan 27 2008, 15:44

After finishing the game 7 times, (and having buffed the monsters numerous times in a mod), I still think that the Rogue promotion quest and Warlock promotion quest are the hardest at their level.

Warlock goes without saying (as even Invisibility won't help much to get you thru those narrow tunnels), but Rogue is the hardest basic promotion for this reason:

- You can't run or hide from those Master crusaders and they hit FAST & HARD (compared to the slowish attacks of a certain blue dragon)
- The dungeon is too small to maneuver around them
- You need to complete an additional dungeon (sewers) to even get the quest


Comparison with the other 8 basic promotions:
- Crusader promo: Generally considered the hardest, but I found that Wromthrax is relatively easy if you're level 15+ and know what you're doing. I successfully defeated him in melee (using heal spells), at range (with wands or bow) and it wasn't THAT hard. Lots of space to dodge. I play real time. Water Resistance helps a lot.
- Warrior Mage: Extremely easy to deal with Medusas if you have a Priest (thx to Protection from magic). If not, gather all those potions lying around and save the game often.
- Priest promo: the easiest promotion after Hunter. Only thing is having to kill a few Zombies and Harpies in Deyja, then Skeleton and Thieves in the pirate cavern. Made harder if you have no one able to cast Water Walk (in which case you need Water Breath potions or Water Walk scrolls)
- Initiate: Barrows are a relatively easy dungeon if you take some notes on a paper and know which sections you've done.
- Cavalier: Tougher than the Barrows, but smaller and less confusing dungeon.
- Great Druid: Avlee stone: Dodge those wyverns then jump off the cliff and run back. The second stone: dodge some trolls then jump off the cliff. The third stone: complete the easy Priest promotion quest first (which is made easier because the Druid can cast Water Walk)
- Wizard: Long, but easy if you take your time and know what you're doing. Good Head: no need to cast the fly scroll, just scale the cliff in NE Bracada. Avlee: Water Walk + Water Resist pedestral + Run. Tatalia: Water Walk. Two Legs in Deyja: Some harpies to kill. You may want to use the Fly scroll there. Barrow Downs: Just outside Stone City.
- Hunter : easiest by far. I added buffed-up female Elven Archers in the dungeon in my mod for more fun.

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Re: MM7: Rogue: Hardest basic promotion in the game?

Postby Avonu » Jan 27 2008, 16:27

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:Warlock goes without saying (as even Invisibility won't help much to get you thru those narrow tunnels), but Rogue is the hardest basic promotion for this reason:

- You can't run or hide from those Master crusaders and they hit FAST & HARD (compared to the slowish attacks of a certain blue dragon)
- The dungeon is too small to maneuver around them
- You need to complete an additional dungeon (sewers) to even get the quest

Warlock promotion is easy - cast Invisibilty in Land of Giants and grab eggs. Of course you have to go there first but Tunnels to Eeofol are not difficult - they are only game time consuming (slow spell is excellent for behemoths plus they can't fallow team in most of corridors - behemoths are too big).

Thief quest is difficult but with Invisibility spell (scroll can be purchase or found in some shops/chest - if you are lucky) it's not too hard. You only have to be patient - in some moment guards will get out from your way and give you access to vase.
But if you have paralyze wand (from Morcarack's or Wromthrax's body or from shops) you can clear entire dungeon without problems.

And my personal ranking of first promotion quests:
1. Hunter - as explain above
2.1 Great Druid - need only to vistit three place with some easy (bows rules!) monster
2.2 Crusader - after Morcarack, Wromthrax is easier (and if I don't kill this first red dragon, blue dragon is still easy - only I have kill him a little longer)
3.1 Initiate - just because I don't like to exploring barrows and Barrows Down area
3.2 Priest - only problem is waterwalk
3.3 Calvalier - same as Initiate plus fight
3.4 Wizard - you must visit nearly all lands in continent to find all pieces of golem
4.1 Thief - Invisibility spell requaried
4.2 Warrior Mage - Protection from Magic requaried or Invisibility or just run through mines (I don't like that style of game - I love to explore and clear all areas)

2.1, 2.2 and so on means that these quest are equal in difficult for me.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Jan 27 2008, 17:20

The Thief Promotion quest can be done without Invisibility. I think (it's been a while) that there are Day of the Gods and Heroism Pedestals in Tatalia, as well as the +AC well. Haste, Slow, and a little luck with the bed (useful for having to face only a few at a time), and you can do it. :)

I agree, though, it is the hardest. Why so many promotion quests require abilities unavailable to the class in question is beyond me. :|
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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Jan 27 2008, 18:03

Bandobras Took wrote:The Thief Promotion quest can be done without Invisibility. I think (it's been a while) that there are Day of the Gods and Heroism Pedestals in Tatalia, as well as the +AC well. Haste, Slow, and a little luck with the bed (useful for having to face only a few at a time), and you can do it. :)


There are no Day of the Gods pedestral in Tatalia, but there is indeed Heroism, PLUS Stone Skin pedestral, PLUS the +AC well.. but even with all that AC those crusaders hit you most of the time. :(

And yes, I also like to hide between the bed and the south wall :) And it's the only time in the game when I actually use turn based mode (to allow me time to use Red potions).

Bandobras Took wrote:I agree, though, it is the hardest. Why so many promotion quests require abilities unavailable to the class in question is beyond me. :|


Not only that, but Knights get a fixed reward in their promotion dungeon that boosts Spirit magic... yet can't use it!

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Postby Kareeah Indaga » Jan 27 2008, 18:06

Bandobras Took wrote:I agree, though, it is the hardest. Why so many promotion quests require abilities unavailable to the class in question is beyond me. :|


To encourage the use of a balanced party. (Actually that’s just a guess, but it makes limited sense…limited because these are the PROMOTION quests…maybe NWC just came up with all their quests in advance and picked out some for the promotions.)

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Jan 27 2008, 18:13

I would have liked it much more if to get your THIEF promoted, you actually had to use the STEAL ability unique to that class.

What if that vase was in possession of a lone (but very powerful) plate armor guy? You could use the Steal ability (would require a low enough Steal score, to be able to get your Thief promoted early on if you have one in your party) or KILL the guy later on when your party is strong enough (if you don't have a thief). In my MM7 mod anyway, only the thief is even allowed to use the skill at all.

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Jan 27 2008, 18:16

Kareeah Indaga wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:I agree, though, it is the hardest. Why so many promotion quests require abilities unavailable to the class in question is beyond me. :|


To encourage the use of a balanced party. (Actually that’s just a guess, but it makes limited sense…limited because these are the PROMOTION quests…maybe NWC just came up with all their quests in advance and picked out some for the promotions.)


My last game was Knight-Monk-Paladin-Cleric. Light side.

Having no elemental caster I had to come up with many interesting solutions sometimes. Walls of Mist was TOUGH (had to rely on my healing skills). I have to admit though that in my mod, I also allow all classes to learn and master ANY secondary skills (except Armsmaster and Stealing)

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Postby Edwardas 3 » Jan 27 2008, 23:17

You can kill everybody in turn-base.
You must use the table between you and Masters of Sword
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Postby Tress » Jan 28 2008, 11:47

When i play usualy rogue is first or second promotion i do. Its completely easy with invis and can be done without too with spells like charm or berserk (altough dont really remember if it worked, not 100% sure but it should) and dont tell we are doing game without ego magic ( well its possible but doing that will make some other promotions hell).
Imo hardest promo is pala if you dont just dodge his bolts and shoot what takes at least solid 5-8 min also what isnt realy intended imo. Mage promotion aint too easy either since it requires pretty high disarm skill and some chest are in bad places. archer q is easy if you just run past medusas while kiling medusas at that level is tricky.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Jan 28 2008, 15:01

Though being able to attack targets from a distance without them responding was intended. Steagal Snick for the Sniper promotions says "You'll have to act like a sniper" in order to take on Titans, i.e. shooting from a distance and killing them before they can react.

That being said, I've usually collected enough wands by the time I get to the Paladin promotion cave to make it a piece of cake.
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Postby CoffeeGnome » Jan 28 2008, 23:19

UndeadHalfOrc - in the thief quest, I recommend standing as close to the west door as possible and opening it instead of the east and then going into turn-based mode. Use spells or scrolls of berserk to cause those masters of the sword to attack each other. They may strike swift and hard but they also strike swift and hard against eachother as well and they are vulnerable to mental attacks. You will have to spin around a few times to have your meele-guys deal with those goons that will be coming up your rear but it beats trying to sneak past them in those tight crevases.
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Postby Justice » Jan 29 2008, 15:42

It's not too hard to evade monsters in the Thief quest and the Tunnels to Eofol. In the Thief one you just run straight at the vase the shortest way before the mosnters can mvoe too much and in the Tunnels you just evade one group of Behomoths at a time.- Sooner or later, usually sooner, they gather on one side and you can run past them via the walls.- Last time I got a shock because there were so many huge Ancient Behomoths, but only had to stop once :D

I usually do all the promo quests but the Hero and knight ones before I go above lvl 5 :devious: just spending horse shoes and skill points on air and do the Wizard quest first.- No need for water walk in Tatalia (no problem getting over the ocean before you die) and you usually find one or two fly scrolls for Avlee with the Bill of Sale :D

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Postby accabear » Jan 30 2008, 2:20

I don't recall the thief quest being all that hard... I remember being able to muscle my way through that quest several times. Turn based mode and then beserking one of the swordmasters works... and once one finishes killing the other you can either run away or you can paralyze one and melee him until he is dead.

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Postby CoffeeGnome » Jan 30 2008, 16:37

accabear wrote:Turn based mode and then beserking one of the swordmasters works... and once one finishes killing the other you can either run away or you can paralyze one and melee him until he is dead.


Hard to find paralyzation scrolls or have this spell before this quest. I usually have this quest done well before the war or having to choose good or evil. Like you said, berserk works well here and you are far more likely to have the spell or scrolls when it comes time for this quest.
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Re: MM7: Rogue: Hardest basic promotion in the game?

Postby Baduum » May 10 2009, 23:42

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:After finishing the game 7 times, (and having buffed the monsters numerous times in a mod), I still think that the Rogue promotion quest and Warlock promotion quest are the hardest at their level.

Warlock goes without saying (as even Invisibility won't help much to get you thru those narrow tunnels), but Rogue is the hardest basic promotion for this reason:

- You can't run or hide from those Master crusaders and they hit FAST & HARD (compared to the slowish attacks of a certain blue dragon)
- The dungeon is too small to maneuver around them
- You need to complete an additional dungeon (sewers) to even get the quest



Just did the rogue promotion quest today as my first promotion quest, with a level 5 party consisting of: Knight, Thief, Cleric and Sorcerer.

Heres how i did it: First buff up heroism+stoneskin pedestal + AC well. I also buffed me with bless and regeneration.

Trick most use/know i reckon to make it easier: Dont open the sidedoors until you have killed the two guards in the starting room. They arent hostile, doesnt prevent you from attacking them tho. These 2 guards (think they are initiates of the sword) will be the thougest fight in the manor. I managed to take down one and then flee to temple, came back and killed the other.

Now, open the door to the right, (the left door will then also open), quickly kill the 2 or so swordsmen and position yourseld between the bed and the wall at the right side of the room. Wait for the 2 crusaders from the left door to come attack you, then jump over the bed (works manually with the x button, dont need the jump spell). Now the idiot crusaders wont reach you and you can kill them easily. Rince and repeat for the master of the sword+champion of the sword in the "hidden" treasuer room.

So you can run and hide from most of them. Still its kinda cheesy to exploit bad AI pathing. I agree that its the hardest first promotion, but you dont need invisibility to steal that vase.
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Postby Deyja » May 11 2009, 9:48

The Thief quest so easy just jump on the bed right of the room then thy can't harm you but you can kill them, Then when all are dead take the vase :devious:

You could do this on the lowest level possible haha ;)

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Postby Bandobras Took » May 11 2009, 13:53

Deyja wrote:The Thief quest so easy just jump on the bed right of the room then thy can't harm you but you can kill them


I've never been able to reach a spot like that on the bed -- mind giving us a screenshot?
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Postby Baduum » May 11 2009, 16:01

Bandobras Took wrote:I've never been able to reach a spot like that on the bed -- mind giving us a screenshot?


Im also curios as i have never found a safe spot on the bed, but you could always use the trick i described in my last post on the other side of the bed.
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Postby Deyja » May 11 2009, 17:39

Baduum wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:I've never been able to reach a spot like that on the bed -- mind giving us a screenshot?


Im also curios as i have never found a safe spot on the bed, but you could always use the trick i described in my last post on the other side of the bed.


O Well i have too instal M&M7 again then. :D
But yes it depence what the guards do if thy stay at the back of the bed you can use the bed, But if thy go sideways then you have go on the side of the bed just like Bandobras said.

hmm you people could test it i sure it will work, becouse i done it many times :devious:


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