Might and Magic X proposal from a diffrent point of View

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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White Wizard
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Postby White Wizard » Dec 26 2007, 21:12

First of all happy hollidays,and here i am with a bigger update called "character creation" and a minor adjustment "class inventory"

@Ed Robinson:I didn't really like dark messiah either,at least not the content.Because you must follow a road wether you like it or not,little decision making was involved,xana was the only amusing character present :pOveral the game was rather dissapointing.Not much games interrest me either except for M&M,as they all are some kinda clones,with nothing really new/original/exciting....recently I bought a game that was a poor clone of oblivion "two words"...few games to look forward to too(drakensang,king's bounty:the legend(has some roots in the homm series and looks promising),spore(for once kinda original concept) and perhaps sacred II and diciples III)

Character creation :

some points to spend on

Might
vitality
flexibility
Intelligence
endurance
accuracy
dexterity
speed
luck

you can give characters any name,like it always has been.

creation:will be very open
shape faces and body parts,colour hair,eyes,lenght, every bodypart can be costumized..
condition(fat-average-atletic-fit-slim) affects things like endurance,vitality,flexibility..
there will be some standart characters available(like in previous M&M games) if you want to skip this part.
Each race will have a standart male-female model to make editing a bit easier

as characters are very costumizable perhaps races should be very open too?chosing from pixies,orcs,demons too?
There will be lots of voice choices,most of the time related to the personality.

PERSONALITY (for each character seperately,works with kinda procent bar or bar between two possibilities.)
Each race will have some standard settings wich could be costumized.

social
cheerfull
courteous
sympathic
sarcastic
shy
sadistic
honest
hysterical
hypercinetic
aggressive
rightreous
addiction(alcohole,...)
faith(in life,oneself,others)

and the point personalities(leaning more towards or set in the middle,..)
good---------evil
sane------------crazy
smart---------dumb(in behavior)
clear----------dim
realistic----------naive
serene-----------drama queen
graceful----------clumsy
expansive--------kept back
altruism---------ego centric
believable-----------ambitious(goals in life cyclus will be more effective)
friendly-----impolite
humble-------------arrogant
involved-----indiffrent
mature------immature
modest------vain
optimistic------pessimistic
serious-----silly
encourage whats necessary-----------convenient
dynamic------------passive
open for improvement--------self satisfied
develope self (how able the character is to change personality during game)---------stays the same(during whole game)

There will be a character "looks" screen with visible equipment like in previous games,
but also each character will also have a "biological body screen" with visible organs,skeleton and recieved body specific damage and stuff

flesh colour means: everything functions properly
Golden(means that part is very active)brains:when very intelligent for instance,heart and or lungs when you have a good shape,genitale area when fertility is high and attracted to someone,...some are permanent,others periodical...
yellow:lightly damaged/in no good condition
green:poisoned,diseased
grey:a rare condition,virus,if you're character becomes an undeath or vampire too
red:badly damaged,malfunctioning
black:inactive,disabled,broken(when it's an important organ it can result in death if you wait too long to heal)
totally black when dead

Also transformations sometimes gain new body parts,organs(or they lose some of them)... a quest is involved for transformations or curing viruses.

Condition of the body affects diffrent kinda things,for instance,if your lungs have colour yellow you'll get exhausted more quickly..
When you resurrect a character the black parts will return to yellow,and it will take time to fuction with full capacity again/needs to recover,but if it was golden(very active) it will eventually become golden agian if it wasn't a temporarly effect but because of a characters attribute.Gaining beter armour and more hp/strenght,some skilltypes decreases the chances your body will get damaged quickly.Some herbs/potions in the game can make certain organs and body parts very active temporarily,increase condition etc....

NEEDS
in previous M&M games there were only the need to sleep/eat.
Now also the age you'll chose for a character makes diffrence because every phase of growing up will have needs,"goals" and gain extra skill points or bonuses if those are satisfied...some can unlock new quests or even new possibilities ingame!

Childhood till 13 year (growing up and improving)
Teenager till 18 (excitment and adventure)
Young Adult till 25 (responsability,mating,indipendence)
Adult till 50 (wealth,romance,carreer)
Elder 50+ (knowledge,faith,social contact,environmental satisfaction:older characters will gain a bonus if it goes to their likings)

Turn on's and turn offs(set fetishes)
When your character reaches the age of a young adult/or starts in this phase
you're character will be able to select 3 turn on's and turn offs
A specific personality,experience,specific type of clothes/armour,a specific class type,objects,make up,race types,rich peoples,older/younger,gendertype,undeath,...everything is possible.this will determine who or what your character is attracted to.
Making children will be possible as well(if the situation you chose allows it) you'll have a bonus like self-confidence,proud when having a relation,and when making a child you will be aknowledged as a worthy civilian in that society/amongst that race.
You can make the home of your partner a personal Headquarter,or conquer a guild or castle(in different manners)
to make it your personal HQ,and home for your family(ies) you can have more than one HQ and abandon/sell it at any time.

You can buy special gifts to "seduce" someone.you can start a relation with someone in the party as an npc.
A relation in the party will have some advantage for your party preformance
A relation with an npc will have advantage for your reputation in a society.

A character his child will get some personality and "special gifts" of the father and the mother.
you can take them with you during travels but they can't really function in combat,but they can give some bonuses,take care of the HQ,become an important figure in a society,...A woman character in your party who gets pregnant will suffer some penalties (the child will drain some hp for instance,especially a child from an overlord will drain alot..)and your character will always take a passive and defensive stance(aggresive,teritorial too) in combat during that period.so if it's your female fighter who normally leads the fights,does the most damage...it could be a big disadvantage to become pregnant.You'll need a HQ if you wanna keep the child alive afterwards.
children are an expensive investment.

birthsigns(some have good bonus boosts for mage,fighter,thiefs,..sometimes also
a disadvantage is connected to it..some signs are kinda neutral,or for any character type good)
Every month a specific sign will also get a small bonus,penalty,or there will be a special event...

party:starting bonus choices

problem solving/public aknowledgement
teamworking/innovation
moral/obsession
open minded/small minded
luck/timing

---------------------------------------------------------
Update to class:

Class inventory options:

Knights:a place to sharpen weapons
thief:lockpicks can be used in the disarm traps and lockpicking section
Ranger:dig for objects(some rare objects are buried and can only be attained with a ranger
cleric:extra place to bless/curse items
Druid:teleport items to HQ
Sorcerer:enchanting items and magical experiment/mess with the effectivness of items

some promotions gain other inventory options
like the smuggler gains extra storage room,the alchemist a alchemy bench,the witchdoctor an kettle...

Inventory:upgrade items in your inventory with the same item types you found will be possible.
---------------------------------------------------------
notes: 6 characters better as 4?if the characters are possitionable this would add depth...why not?

later the spellbooks and this will be added.
Thats it for now...

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Postby klaymen » Dec 27 2007, 13:36

White Wizard wrote:Now also the age you'll chose for a character makes diffrence because every phase of growing up will have needs,"goals" and gain extra skill points or bonuses if those are satisfied...some can unlock new quests or even new possibilities ingame!


are you trying to make The MM Sims?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."
-Ahzek Ahriman

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Postby White Wizard » Dec 27 2007, 17:17

I'm not trying to make the M&M series sims..(although that might be a better alternative spin off compared to dark messiah&crusaders of might and magic,think about it,the old M&M world,costumizable as you advance, with characters like queen catherine...her long-lasting diarrhoea and your mission to save the kingdome,...)

Glad you mention that game cause it has a rather powerfull character creation tool compared to other games,together with oblivion the best ones yet i think...appart from that,the sims series aren't very exciting,it just reminds me of daily life.So I didn't play that game for a long time,not that the game design is bad,just not really my cup of thee.

I'd like to give the characters in M&M more personality,facial expressions,make them more biological correct as well...
The detailed age progression because I thought it's a pitty giving an age to a character without it having an effect in the game.In a good Rpg everything you do should have some kinda consequences.

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Postby accabear » Dec 27 2007, 20:57

You are totally correct there. Good character creation makes you actually feel the characters 'are yours' or that you have worked upon them and they are your own creation of sorts. Very satisfying in the end I'm sure you'll agree. The Oblivioin character creator is a very powerful customizing tool, lurid options afforded to the player including custom classes and the ability to choose whatever skills you want. Anyone know of a totally imbalanced skill selection for Oblivion? ;) I wouldn't mind knowing it though I'm not going to create a new character to use it or anything. Honest. I'm just abit curious.

Anyway that character creation sounds quite broad there. Oh yeah and know I'll finally stop procrastinating and perhaps help out with the writing. No seriously. I've stopped playing Command and Conquer 3 excessively and it's holidays so I have a month or so of free time.

Anyway happy holidays all of you and you're developing plenty of good ideas there White Wizard. By the way what was the B grade game you purchased?

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Postby White Wizard » Dec 28 2007, 12:40

two worlds
I was doubting between purchasing the witcher and two worlds.
Lots of people now say the witcher is a better choice..cause it has a solid story and every action you take has an effect.Two world is a poor clone of oblivion and whats also a big problem in two worlds:all quests look very alike,it gets dull quickly,making the game not replayable at all(if you even have the endurance and nerve system to finish it)
Actually lots of the recent RPG have this problem.thats why i'm going to get a bit into details here for the proposal.

The usual quests in recent RPG's most of the time are:
deliver/get something
kill someone
get object(s)
playing some kinda messanger:see if everything is alright,talk to that persone,then return...

by doing so nothing really changes,most of the quests doesn't have consequences or a great impact and won't change things in a way you can't just go back to one of your save games to make your little "mistake" undone...
Second,a quest isn't always the right and only option...Who says the one who provides "the quest" is also to be trusted?
You should have the rights to "investigate".Then chose the way you'd solve the quest in whatever way you want.
With the belonging consequences.Whatever way you chose you won't(and can't)fail "the quests" as you chose the way to solve them.
you can only fail in reaching your "goals",by dying,...
Sometimes your choice of solving "ends" something.But without realizing it ,you're maybe helping a better/more powerfull Npc,will meet a better purpose by doing so,that could get you further ingame.Ofcourse what is good and right depends on your own purpose.And you never know for sure...
What you want your characters to be,decides whether a quest is solved "right" or "wrong" Ofcourse it changes the way the game will end as well.but nothing really "ends".A Rpg must have a story,but you write the "ending"...Besides that story and its multiple endings, you have your characters of your own,as you made them out of clay...during the game you developed an opinion what you like and dislike in the gameworld,dreaming about what you'd like to change and do about those things.you can keep making changes to the gameworld:for instance you could become the leaders of a nation and start wars and controle things in a society,or become notorious guild leaders/found a society/magetower/creature farm/necromancers palace to let your ambitions rule the gameworld even after the "end" ...everything possible from maggots t'ill kings and leaders....

So the game will not only be replayable,it will still stay a "living" world even after you ended the main quest,were your characters "count"
Ofcourse the way you progress in the story also has it influences so how the world "lives on" is never the same,but you'll be able "to shape" it.Becoming leaders of certain nation/race isn't that simple,isn't just done by poisoning the king or queen...
takes more strategic moves than that.Once you become one you get a city controling mode besides the normal m&m mode.
you party should first enter a building,for instance the throneroom..

Types of quests added to usual ones :
-some are class/race specific and require special skill(s) to be accompliced.
for instance someone could ask your gadgeteer to build a hot air balloon,or an inkeeper could ask your bard to perform...
when yo perform well that character can become famous,a way to get in contact with Npc's who have more powers.
-some were you don't know if they are right or wrong or even "true",quests with betrayals,...Some Npc's wanna help you,others wanne trick(with ambush,posoined gifts,...)
-some to get to a place only known from tales/sometimes those places exist:and then there are unique things ,creatures,objects,herbs,...to get there will then only be possible if you build the hot air balloon for instance.
for other places you need a specific druid promotion,in the end it is impossible to get to all those rare places in the same game.
-puzzle quests;need a piece of one quest to solve the next/other one.
-quests with a time limit.
-investigations
-strategical quests
-promotion quests
-quest were you have responsibilities:to organize an event,were you lead a project....
other types?

The point is there should be enough quests types/specific path quests/sub quests... in order the game to be replayable and to keep the player entertained while playing the game.

party members:stays 4
if you have 6 you can have every class in the same game,wich isnt good at all

for the character creation there will be more humanoids.to let your creative mind go its own way and allow funny character creations
as a gladiator pixie.

The costumization tool of Oblivion was meant for 1 character and therefore could permit such an open class costumizer easily.
For M&M there need to be classes for character deviation,and to let the promotion systems and ingame things work properly.otherwise there would be a mastery level problem,as there is no specific class that could excel in a certain skill.
however,It could be possible to have a class costumizer were you could even name your own class.but the game wouldn't be very m&m-like anymore i think.skills could be very open to characters,but mastery level dependent...

I could really use a hand in writing caus even for me it's a bit chaotic now
time to arrange things,but i leave that for next time,as for the "detailed world map"
greetz

Note:a new minigame besides acromage will also be machiavelli..

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Postby accabear » Dec 29 2007, 2:23

Yeah I must quite agree with everything you've been saying about quests. Isn't The Witcher based on some Polish folk tale? Heard it was very good, excellent storyline. Unfortunately it didn't make it too well into the mainstream market. Everyone was probably distracted by the marvel that was Assassin's Creed...

Quests are meant to be immersive and reflective of everything that an RPG is. It creates a situation where you must come to an understanding of what is happening before applying your own decision or making your own judgment. Acting as a Fed Ex courier is NOT a quest. Also quests are meant to assist in defining your character, ie. evil, neutral. I think the cosmetic customization tool in Oblivion is quite cool, but like you said a custom class creator is abit imbalanced. No one needs plate wearing wizards wielding a spear and sword as well as using armsmaster...

Unique class specific, guild specific, race specific quests would really add abit more depth as well as creating a more repayable game. I think game longevity is really falling. Unlocking just bonuses is not fun in my opinion.
"Look at me! My character had a pair of pants that are RED! Yes RED!"

Alternate quest endings and resolutions are a total must-have as we already discussed.

Anyway I'll get cracking on writing. I shall copy paste all your notes here into a word document, print them out and then get a better feel for your ideas. Yes that's right I have finally ceased my procrastination.

For the time being here's a sample writing, on my blog. The first chapter of a book I have been writing. Well it's kind of unrelated but yeah it's there... http://charybdia.wordpress.com/2007/09/ ... t-chapter/

Oh yeah and Happy New Year everyone, three more days! Hope everyone had a good Christmas!

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Postby accabear » Dec 30 2007, 4:24

A progress report for you White Wizard. I have copy pasted about fifty pages or so of our discussion here. I am now proceeding to go through all fifty pages examining and approving or adding suggestions in. I might be able to finish about half of it by the end of today. I'll tell you when I am done and then send you the gargantuan stack of notes. You've certainly thought up and wrote far more things than I had thought prior to starting this.

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Postby accabear » Dec 31 2007, 3:15

I have completed my analysis. It took quite awhile... fifty pages of text isn't fun... anyway I have colour coded and looked into each individual idea and mention you made. Post up a reply to this so that I know you are still around and about and haven't fallen down a well. Anyone interested in this can ask for a copy of this analysis although if you haven't been keeping with this thread then you'll find it ever confusing.

Goodbye 2007! Happy New Year everyone!

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Postby White Wizard » Dec 31 2007, 12:49

Happy newyear
50 pages,really? wow
could write a small book from that :p
Anywayz i appriciate your help writing and look forward reading.
Looks like you write alot,i myself do poetry but it's in dutch

Maps :
A detailed, clear (world)map is actually an encyclopedia of info gathered through the years.
it contains up to date info(as far as people know) before there were satellites and stuff.
It took a very long time for maps to become accurate as they are those days.
A map is never perfect and completly accurate ,"showing the way" isn't the only purpose they could have.
back in medieval times you couldn't always trust maps..

So the worldmap in M&m will give an idea of the world,not accurate (with seadragons and other drawed stuff upon it)Kingdome maps you can buy at shops.(with every place that society knows about,places they could reach in the area)
the rest will be like a like big puzzle,so you won't have townmaps at the start,maybe a npc provides you with the first piece to get on the road...

-some pieces are given by npc's to show you something(for example the thiefguilds location if he/she trusts you)

-you'll have to explore (the locations of ancient treasures,dungeons,illegal associations,...)
(sometimes you just have an indication and you'll have to find the place)
as you find locations sometimes you can be rewarded for it.(kind of bounty hunt,provide society map update)

-political maps(territorial borders,war plans,..) if you can get your hands on them you can start blackmailing,or increase/decrease reputation with societies.

-you can you can produce diffrent maps with diffrent locations for others
-you can take notes
-you(and others) can mark things on your map and share the "upgrades" with a society to help them improve or trick them with false locations(can also be you who's tricked in any case you'll be able to remove the locations afterwards)

-architect plans(can unlock new styles,stronger buildings and you also know the weakness of a building by them)

____________________________________

-design panel:make your own architect plan (design a machanical thing(hot air balloon till gaint gollem)/buildings at the location you would like to build it,sketch the tunnels of a dungeon to provide this information to others who might need it.when your building is finished you can bring the paper to the townhall and they'll make up the price and stuff.
if the building is not promited bij the society you can always contact some kinda illigale association.for instance the necromancers for a necromancers palace.smaller upgrades,like the torture room,throne room can be added later
it could be anything;house,shop,castle,tower,a bar...
In some cases you'll need deeds to hold the place,how you get them,by force or honnest...
____________________________________

journals/stories

they could lead to something or give the right information of someone.
others are just to entertain,a bard could "use" them.
____________________________________

thats it for now
the normal always known M&M RPG mode
And mode with RTS elements(i'll get into detail here later)
note:still have to perform a bigger update on the general proposal

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Postby accabear » Jan 5 2008, 3:50

Right sorry about the long delay editing and rechecking. Have been extremely busy. I'll get it to you in the next day or two...

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Postby accabear » Jan 6 2008, 11:15

Alright everything ready. I have kind of gone through the compilation and am ready to send it to you. Just give me shout, just so I know you haven't fallen into a Belgian chocolate well.

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Postby White Wizard » Jan 8 2008, 12:45

I reorganized the proposal on the first page,added some stuff,removed some stuff,moved some parts to a proper part,...some parts are still unfinished.Like the goblin abilities and weakness,the transformation section,...
the orc is now a transformation for the human
The naga for the dark elf...
The maps and this RTS part i've been writing will be added in a later stage.
I'm also looking forward to read your compilation accabear,with a big chocolate bar if needed...

Now this new RTS mode is optional to play
Wich means you can play M&M without really using the new rts mode/even knowing it's there..
If you chose to play it or not:during the game you'll still get in contact with the rts part used by more powerfull and prominent npc's.
however,this mode allows you to play a detailed role in society,emanate authority,...play m&m in a diffrent way..
The most important thing in this M&m RTS mode is your goal.
the strategic part of the is reaching that goal with the methode you're using(there will be plenty of)
Originality in reaching that goal will be rewarded.
You can only start the RTS mode with succes if you have enough money or with a "sponsor"
unless you're leader of a society you can't controle a society directly(with armies,buiding,products,...) but only take part in it.
To switch to this mode your party must enter a building/throneroom,....

Every class type hass a speciality in the RTS mode in wich they excel
The skills and mastery level they earned in the normale m&m mode will also contribute to the rts mode:how able,good,succesfull they are in the rts at certain roles.
the specialities in the RTS for every classtype:
Knight(authority)
thief(negotiation)
ranger(investigation)
cleric(reputation)
druid(creation)
sorcerer(manipulation)

you have to think about what class is best for the job to reach your goal easily,wich isn't always an easy choice.
cause different factors will be important in reaching a goal.Its better to think before acting.
sometimes if your character gets promoted in a way that the society doesn't like/opens a shop that isn't tollerated, it has a negative effect and its better to set someone else on the job or to inform what the townpeople need before starting a shop.Besides an Inventory and quest log,there will be a "contracts list" with all ownerships,deeds,citizen documents,...and that kinda stuff visible for every character you "activate" in this RTS mode.having multiple projects in multiple societies will be possible,but need even more strategy for a goal to succeed.

You're have to switch now and then between the two game modes:to "set something right" or to get something for the shop/building yourself in some cases,you could sell products from the society wich goes automatic,or decide to chose everything that will be sold(the ones you find)

Each race also has a speciality concerning building improvement (mentioned before)
how willing they are to help you improve depends on reputation with them
ofcourse you can bribe if you're rich...

-Dwarfs:renovation and defences
-Human:Improvement of buildings
-Elves&Dark elves:decoration of buildings
-Goblins:traps for buildings
-pixie:building luxery assesoires and "natural environment" gardens,...

types of homes and HQ

-castle(a castle can be a polis of all kinda buildings in a deffended environment)
upgrades like throne room,keep,gatehouse,ballroom,stock,wine cellar,kitchen,hall,training grounds,barracks,bedrooms,dining hall,canons,...
-guild(upgrades concerning the guild)
-house(how big and beautifull you can build it depends on how good the reputation is,and ofcourse how much you can spend,wich eventually has effect on how much you can upgrade the house)
cave and hideout:another option if you like it cheap
(For some characters as the thief and villian it has lots of advantages,upgradable with torture room,smoggler hole(could have public sales in another society),thieftoolshop for instance)

some buildings to emanate authority and/or have influence:
-Castle
-court
-guild
-church
-Mage tower
-temples(moon,sun,...)
-necromancers palace
-pit
-shadow forge
-dryade forrest
-the thief related hideouts

Buildings to create and enforce effects;
instead of selling items you could start your own shop,wich sometimes make you earn way more money,
and you can earn respect (shop has some kind of reputation) and if you're very good you can earn a honour title
for example:perfumerie:pixies can gain the title fairy godmother
shop(blacksmith,alchemist,giftshop,parfurmier,thiefs toolshop,butcher,bakker,magic shop,liberary,mines)
-academy
-tavern
-obelisks
-shrines:moon,sun,magical,nature,order,chaos,sacrific,...
-witch/druid,... circles
-demongate
-creature dwellings(druids)
-mystic pond(enables the pegasus pet)
-griffin nest(enables the griffin pet)
-elemental planes

buildings to improve transportation
To ability to move fast is very important for lots of diffrent reasons.
Also for a good functioning society.by starting a business like this you controle how fast a society can "act" towards other societies and stuff like that.With good or bad intensions.

-shipyard
-stable
(you can also discover new ways to travel,a mage could share his townportal skill eventually to benefit the shop,or a gadgeteer could design a hot air balloon or caravan to use for the business.so in fact finding ways to improve is important for the shop to gain aknowledgement.

the most important thing is the Goal:
for instance:you want to eliminate a society
you could start a perfumier shop in that society,if business is doing fine ,
you can eventually develope an illigale perfume with the effect that people can't stop dancing/sleeping
meanwhile you invade with your ally race and slay them all..
-if you like a society you could increasing the population, you're parfumier could create massive dosis of sex pheromones

and for subtile killing the queen..
you start a bakker,and make such delicious "special heartattack" cakes she will get so fat that she eventually dies a fatal heartattack,
or you could make a vomit cake,if she eats it she will lean over the balcony vomitting,thats were your sniper moves in to shoot an arrow trough her head,or you could have a relation with her,ruin her reputation,...

you could still reach some goals with the old fashioned M&M way and kill everyone is still an option but your whole reputation will be ruined,killling everyone shouldn't also be that easy..

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Postby accabear » Jan 9 2008, 2:36

Uh this 'RTS' mode seems abit over the top. I think you should only create this thing on a 'broad' scale. This perhaps might mean none of your elaborate insane heart attack foods and mustard gas perfumes. Sure that would mean heaps of possibilities but I think the feasibility of it all is abit skewed. I've sent you the compilation in your e-mail inbox. I would seriously not try to include an RTS element within Might and Magic, the objective of the game is to progress through the story, not become a megalomaniac ruler bent on wrecking and killing and destroying every last city and town. I think operations such as invading and attacking perhaps targets like opposing guilds should be carried out in the normal first person view, with the player directing and getting directly involved in the conflict.

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Postby White Wizard » Jan 9 2008, 12:30

@accabear:
I have received your email and i'll see what i can change,things still need to be discussed over,...
Now I was going to get more detailed for this RTs actually.
Some parts of the RTS look a bit overdone but those were just examples :p
The story of M&M will be non linear with very little linearity...
So their won't be a clear objective(you'll have to discover,the end is surprising) as their will be multiple endings as well.thats also why you'll have more participation in the "story" with this RTS mode.You can also keep playing a sensational game even after "the end".You can meet the "leader" of a society in a later stage of the game,so the rts mode will be balanced enough you can't "screw up" the story.A big part I forgot to mention is that NPC's will also have roles and powers in the RTS,if thats a powerfull role it won't be easy to take that role and you don't want to have trouble with a powerfull npc in early stage.Becoming ruler is just one goal:you can also become notorious thieves,psycho archmage,just involve in a conflict,...
When speaking about wars,guildwars,... You'll still be able to get on the battlefield in the normal M&M view or you can get in the throneroom( or wathever) to watch the work being done for you.
Perhaps ranged partymembers could have some fun on the balcony with the others beside scoffing grapes,cheese and chocolate,saying things like "there is one" "quickly,kill it" "right on" " oh..that was a close one" (pretty much like watching a good footballgame with a group :p) anywayz what i'm trying to say is there will be more ways to get involved,the old fashioned way still included if you prefer a direct approach...

As you have the possibility to shape every detail of your party members:
means you actually can "design" the group to be good or bad,neutral,a mixture of good and bad characters.
Should creating a good/bad designed party directly affect the way the game starts?were a game starts?how npc's will act when they meet you?how npc's will act toward certain party members in case of a mixed party?
And when you're going for the mixed party:should those good and bad characters have kinda confict?
In this case,should there be something like "party devotion"
If the points for party devotion are high they care more about other companions
If the points are low the fellow companions couldn't die quickly enough for them...

When reading other topics I see lots of people would like to have elements of the old might and magic universe.
Thats why a "M&M construction set" will be available as well..
Some parts of constructions will be ingame like the "design panel" for the gadgeteer,the character creation,magical experiments(spell design with variable mana costs),also the RTS mode will have elements of the construction set "buildings" etc.But there will be an editor to make your own buildings,world/society too,create and shape the npc's just like your own characters(so you can reconstruct characters).share all your creations over the internet.

A semi ingame "creature gene mixer" and a creature editor will make it possible to create everything your heart desires.the way the creature moves(walk,swim,fly,crawl,...) depends on how you design them,as well as their speed,endurance,...
-creature genes and tissue can also be used to improve immune system,create potions with permanent effects,discover a weakness/habbit of the creature,...
Experimenting with this is very dangerous,you'll be able to find some experimental notes with results in laboratoriums and alchemy related buildings to help.

-A building can be created during or seperately from the game.
when you finished the design you can transfer it ingame as an architect plan.
when you created a creature you can bring it to the game only if you have a druid.

the creature is in the M&M world can die if the environment is wrong.
there will be more stages for the creature
eventually it can become a society or race of its own.
there will be more "cultured buildings(tents,stone houses,sky buildings,greek,egyptian,norse,chinese like cultivated building...)" in the gamefolders as the ones that appear in the game.so you have more design options to create the right feeling for the creatures culture you create.-creating a creature and bringing it into the world could change the biotope/monster respawning,or in the worst case war and/or a plague in a race/society.But creating a new creature could have advantages,like you could for instance get ingredients/special treasures from the sea/normally unreachable places if you create a creature that becomes a society in that area.and if you get friendly with them...eventually find a way to that dimension yourself...

Npc's will react to everything you do.

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Postby White Wizard » Jan 10 2008, 13:16

i've gone trough whole accabears compilation
Things I already changed using this compilation.

party:2 Villagers/mercaneries can travel with you.
First companion section was removed earlier..mayhaps will be rewritten in other form.

clothes:
"Perhaps particular items correspond to each other to make an outfit of some sort? IE. Erathian royal plate armour, Erathian royal guard’s gauntlets, Earathian royal guard’s halberd etc." ("racial uniforms" have been added)

Monster droppings:
-You can upgrade items with the same item type
-creature bodies have images of carrying items,so that you can easily judge if there is anything worthwhile upon the body.
-1 mouseclick:just collect money
-2 mouseclick:examine it's body...(not only to collect, i'll get into detail later)

Self guild will be one guild with 3 kinda self magic mind,spirit,body

New game difficulty:
Insane: Monsters do extra damage, monsters scale slightly higher than your level. (added)

Character creation:speed and flexibility removed.

Associations have been subgrouped from guilds earlier..

Racial ability was edited allot earlier...

Party starting bonuses were removed earlier...

clearly mentioned:Only high ranking members of a guild are given the privilege of transformation.

Item Values:
The value of items will be balanced enough you can't get extremely rich in short period.
The value of common items you find alot in M&MX will be lower,Buying those will be a little bit more expensive.
Upgrading items with the same item type will increase the value a bit.
Rare and Valuable items are not easy to find and can't be upgraded
Creating a more long term way of the player managing his money,adding more strategy in using the money
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Things that still need discussion:

speaking about the item values,i'd like to get a detail system for the bank
should the money you deposite bring in more money
should a bank and stuff be able to be robbed
.....
accabear wrote:
"Yeah. Better defined bodies and shapes. I think though, that we shouldn't be able to pause or go into turn based mode though. It would just make combat too easy. Especially with the ability to leisurely target and damage creatures. The game should have a quicker pace, get in quick and do your best to aim and pummel the creature. Body specific damage that may stun/disable creatures would be nice too.(Undecided)"


I dicided to have "body specific damage" as a skill(not yet known wich skill and for who) with X procent change of succeeding.Turn based is not too easy,it's just not really neccesary to use it if monsters are too weak.But it can actually gives you time to think,strategically,before acting if you encounter (alot)strong monsters,strong ranged monster could kill you before even knowing whats going on.Also for spells like meteor,starburst,spells with area effect turn based is a must.And ofcourse to maintain the "m&m spirit" ..No one will force you to use turn based,but it must stay an option in my opinion
guilds:

accabear wrote:
Well, we had sort of merchant guild in MM - you can trade items between towns (brandosk pulp in MM8), get rewards for creatures tropheries (wivern's horn) or simple get bounty hunt from town council. So, you only need to widen out town council authorities. After all, merchants nearly always were conected with towns representatives (in one or another way).


what about making more of those "town activities", class connected?like the one above would be for the ranger..?

pets:
the dragon,titan,demon overpowered..?
@accabear:just like any other pet they would have a level up system.
Also have to think about the time it takes to obtain pet,some will take more time as others.
Perhaps they will have diffrent strong and weak points...thats true
But the somewhat stonger looking pets might have a "own will", if your connection with them isn't good enough they will not always listen to you.

Mit babies?yes or nono...
childhood,yes or nono..

accabear wrote:
Next - warrior guild - well, here is problem. If you chosse for your character promotion to Dark Knight and another for Paladin, I don't think that these two warrior can coexist in one guild (characters can somehow fight arm to arm). I think that better is simple not creating that kind of guild but gave some quest to people/warriors/rulers of different lands/country. (Further discussion needed)

getting more facilities depending on your rank within a guild sounds super, they will have quests to increase the rank/loyalties.The idea of guilds at war is great too and i think guild loyalties won't be much of a problem.Since every town from humans,elves,dwarfs,necromancers,... will have different cultivated warrior guilds,mage guilds(though they will all have the same basic stuff)Not all guildleaders of the same guildtype will be best friends over the world..So When entering a guildwar(between different or same guildtype)and you chose a side of a specific cultivated guild,you will automatically get banned by the opposite specific guild/attacked by its followers when entering it in that town.however entering such a guildwar is your own choice.If we take M&M7 for instance and asume their are warrior guilds in each town.the black knight promotion would be available in deja with a loyal servant of the warrior guild from that town to promote you,the paladin would be available in celestia.So you can't have for example the paladin/black knight promotion in the same guild.(at least not in the same town) one choice will also disable the other.so you can't have both extremes in one party at the same time. you'll only be able to join guild depening on your class.
the facilities/rankings available in a specific guild depends also on the band you have with that leader.
the band leader of the same guildtype have with each other,affects how powerfull a specific guild will be opposed to other guilds.you can try to restore order to a guildtype or make more conflicts between the diffrent country guildleaders and drop it in total chaos.

(Further discussion required…)


How it is in the proposal at the moment:
"Enough quests will be given to people/rulers and diffrent associations,so not everything will depend on guilds.
Only in magic guilds you can be trained to expert and master level (to be GM you mast find teacher/leader in the world). apart from paying the price for teaching you must complete a special quest sometimes"

So the black knight in this case would be someone in the gameworld,not connected to a guild(if connected to anything it would be an association)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
things that will be refined:

-promotion(attributes) refining the table abit and even up some of the classes
to answere some questions about atributes:Some of the attributes are skills with level up,other are just abilities that won't level up
- transformation(banshee doesn't fit for dark elf?...)discussion&refining

Transformation special ability:still under constructen
-I like the idea of transformations "going wrong"
for example the overlord turning into a creature instead depending on his/her expertise in fire magic.

Guilds...

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Postby accabear » Jan 13 2008, 10:51

Sorry was away for a couple of days. Good to see you have read through my compilation. I'll evaluate your first post today. Then your second post tommorow.


@accabear:
I have received your email and i'll see what i can change,things still need to be discussed over,...
Now I was going to get more detailed for this RTs actually.
Some parts of the RTS look a bit overdone but those were just examples :p
The story of M&M will be non linear with very little linearity...
So their won't be a clear objective(you'll have to discover,the end is surprising) as their will be multiple endings as well.thats also why you'll have more participation in the "story" with this RTS mode.You can also keep playing a sensational game even after "the end".You can meet the "leader" of a society in a later stage of the game,so the rts mode will be balanced enough you can't "screw up" the story.A big part I forgot to mention is that NPC's will also have roles and powers in the RTS,if thats a powerfull role it won't be easy to take that role and you don't want to have trouble with a powerfull npc in early stage.Becoming ruler is just one goal:you can also become notorious thieves,psycho archmage,just involve in a conflict,...
When speaking about wars,guildwars,... You'll still be able to get on the battlefield in the normal M&M view or you can get in the throneroom( or wathever) to watch the work being done for you.
Perhaps ranged partymembers could have some fun on the balcony with the others beside scoffing grapes,cheese and chocolate,saying things like "there is one" "quickly,kill it" "right on" " oh..that was a close one" (pretty much like watching a good footballgame with a group :p) anywayz what i'm trying to say is there will be more ways to get involved,the old fashioned way still included if you prefer a direct approach...


I'll leave this RTS project for you to develop abit more.

As you have the possibility to shape every detail of your party members:
means you actually can "design" the group to be good or bad,neutral,a mixture of good and bad characters.
Should creating a good/bad designed party directly affect the way the game starts?were a game starts?how npc's will act when they meet you?how npc's will act toward certain party members in case of a mixed party?
And when you're going for the mixed party:should those good and bad characters have kinda confict?
In this case,should there be something like "party devotion"
If the points for party devotion are high they care more about other companions
If the points are low the fellow companions couldn't die quickly enough for them...


I think integrating such a system into the game will be difficult. My proposal is that the dialogue choices you choose, will correspond to ONLY the character portrait highlighted at the time. So some characters will appear bad individually. Others will appear good individually. Pick pocketing people will only go against the particular thief in your party, not everybody, although the others will have to bail their friend out of trouble otherwise the guards will just kill your whole party without regard.

When reading other topics I see lots of people would like to have elements of the old might and magic universe.
Thats why a "M&M construction set" will be available as well..
Some parts of constructions will be ingame like the "design panel" for the gadgeteer,the character creation,magical experiments(spell design with variable mana costs),also the RTS mode will have elements of the construction set "buildings" etc.But there will be an editor to make your own buildings,world/society too,create and shape the npc's just like your own characters(so you can reconstruct characters).share all your creations over the internet.

A semi ingame "creature gene mixer" and a creature editor will make it possible to create everything your heart desires.the way the creature moves(walk,swim,fly,crawl,...) depends on how you design them,as well as their speed,endurance,...
-creature genes and tissue can also be used to improve immune system,create potions with permanent effects,discover a weakness/habbit of the creature,...
Experimenting with this is very dangerous,you'll be able to find some experimental notes with results in laboratoriums and alchemy related buildings to help.

-A building can be created during or seperately from the game.
when you finished the design you can transfer it ingame as an architect plan.
when you created a creature you can bring it to the game only if you have a druid.


That would be a post game development but that does sound like the kind of thing people would like. The druid transfer thing seems abit far off, I think it should be for anyone. It's a modding thing, canon game law shouldn't apply EVERYWHERE.

the creature is in the M&M world can die if the environment is wrong.
there will be more stages for the creature
eventually it can become a society or race of its own.
there will be more "cultured buildings(tents,stone houses,sky buildings,greek,egyptian,norse,chinese like cultivated building...)" in the gamefolders as the ones that appear in the game.so you have more design options to create the right feeling for the creatures culture you create.-creating a creature and bringing it into the world could change the biotope/monster respawning,or in the worst case war and/or a plague in a race/society.But creating a new creature could have advantages,like you could for instance get ingredients/special treasures from the sea/normally unreachable places if you create a creature that becomes a society in that area.and if you get friendly with them...eventually find a way to that dimension yourself...


No I think this in-game creature creation is just too distant and hard to integrate. Especially the algorithms to determine if the creature can survive. You are asking for alot there. I think that through various stages in the game, yes cities should evolve and change throughout the game, perhaps some might be utterly destroyed or be integrated into other states/cities due to invasions? These kind of events probably should be part of the storyline.

Npc's will react to everything you do.


Yeah that seems the standard for most games now...

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Postby White Wizard » Jan 14 2008, 1:42

Designing a party to be good and bad,affecting were the game would start etc wouldn't be simple to implement,true..
I like the idea of party members turning up for each others actions with the most funny excusses you could ever think of...
Only if your actions are inexcusable,if they"catch your party in the act" it will directly affect the reputation
Someone might accuse your party of a crime,and maybe there could be a trail in court,or eventually you could even lead sadistical trails too,wich could also be an example of a "proffesion" in the rts element...I'll try to get a clear state on the rts element soon.
Reputation is just an interpretation,they don't know the "real you"..so basically you could be "evil" while your reputation is "loved"
or in the other way...hiding crimes..smashing...

Also a part of "body examination" besides looting by the way...

Perhaps those good/bad characters may sometimes suggest something(like the little angel/devil speaking in your head)...
like getting tipsy in a bar(wich gives an endurance boost,but accuracy penalty for instance)
Then you could surprise the gaurds in the front gate or wherever...
I just love when they're like "whats going on" and a few seconds later aaarggh..
with your party going hysteria..pushing off cliffs,on sharp objects,slice troats,using surround objects(like in dark messiah) should be possible too.Perhaps you could create a banner,guildsign,...that gives this surprising invasion thingy an extra "powerfull" though.
It could also be for guild devotion as purpose or...

Maybe some "battle styles" for the party" sneaky,aggressive,defencive,sadomasochistic :p ...or select a few party members who fight together at the same time(use their turn at the same moment to increase the chance to "affect" the target) for instance...

Your right about the creature creator,the modding thing won't be connected with the druid ingame...
This is an a creator not during the game...
But during the game there will be design tools ..
Besides the character creation,magic creation,rts mod,gadget creator i've been thinkin about the ability to "order"
you're armour,clothers,other wearings...to let your equipment be costumized by the shop
you'll have a design panel were you can add things hundreds of things,change colour,..
Those things will cost extra money,the more you add,the more you pay...
You can use stronger armour you find to costumize/improve your personal created armour.
Maybe some of you think looks are not that important to me, they are...
It gives a personal though to your characters.it's not fun to be a "chosen" one,but it's also not pleasant to stay an avarage peasant during the whole game.As said before people must "feel" their characters.
"there goes the black knight means so much more if your character has the right equipment,
if you can create a distinctive look for your character that feels right to you.
Maybe this could have influence on how npc's act as well.

Modding tools are a post development issue,at least the ones that work appart from the game.

Creature changins ingame,no good idea i agree with you..
Though for creating the right feel more culturale buildings should be in the creator as in the game.
Perhaps a pet tool to give a pesonale feeling to your pet..

accabear wrote:
cities should evolve and change throughout the game, perhaps some might be utterly destroyed or be integrated into other states/cities due to invasions? These kind of events probably should be part of the storyline.

Part of the storyline indeed.
The Rts has a kinda role too,2 important roles in fact...
The Rts element is part of the AI system of the npc's while you're in the normale m&m mode during most parts of the game.
-It intensifies the feeling "the world changes",that things happen around you ,city wars,evolvings,expansions,integrations,events,..
It helps defining the npc's roles better.(If we see rts from the "npc's view")
-For the player:especially to participate in the story..to reach a "goal" or compete to/eliminate npc's,take their role a bit,or totally.. possible(other npc's will act according to the role)..when you think the time is right,and you think to know what you should "support" ,you know what the purpose is...you could start rts yourself.It's a mixture of the old m&m view and "rts".
You could have a temporarely role in the rts(building a house n small stuff) or a permanent (perhaps functions with autority)

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Postby accabear » Jan 14 2008, 3:48

Alright I'll address your second post.

Monster droppings:
-You can upgrade items with the same item type
-creature bodies have images of carrying items,so that you can easily judge if there is anything worthwhile upon the body.
-1 mouseclick:just collect money
-2 mouseclick:examine it's body...(not only to collect, i'll get into detail later)


That sounds like a brilliant solution.

Item Values:
The value of items will be balanced enough you can't get extremely rich in short period.
The value of common items you find alot in M&MX will be lower,Buying those will be a little bit more expensive.
Upgrading items with the same item type will increase the value a bit.
Rare and Valuable items are not easy to find and can't be upgraded
Creating a more long term way of the player managing his money,adding more strategy in using the money


Yeah I found in some games of Might and Magic I would have heaps of cash, and the shops sold dirt crap equipment compared to what I had. Glad to see we both agree on long term management of cash.

Things that still need discussion:

speaking about the item values,i'd like to get a detail system for the bank
should the money you deposite bring in more money
should a bank and stuff be able to be robbed


A bank system hmm... perhaps. I still think all banks should be 'inter-joined' as they were in all Might and Magic games. I also think there should be a safe deposit box to place valuables, the advantage of storing these items in banks is that they are available in every major city, not just in one place like in the case of your guild or your home/castle/stronghold. Problem with an interest system is it would be just really dry and boring. It would basically be meaningless. Nothing really would affect the interest rate, IE make it fluctuate. I say scrap it. I think being able to rob the bank with your party would be quite cool. It should be abit like Oblivion, you can break in at night, although it will be a tad difficult with guards, traps and locks. Also yes the bank should be able to be robbed, and all your money lost. It should become a sort of quest actually, have to find the robber and recover the stuff for the bank.

accabear wrote:
"Yeah. Better defined bodies and shapes. I think though, that we shouldn't be able to pause or go into turn based mode though. It would just make combat too easy. Especially with the ability to leisurely target and damage creatures. The game should have a quicker pace, get in quick and do your best to aim and pummel the creature. Body specific damage that may stun/disable creatures would be nice too.(Undecided)"

I dicided to have "body specific damage" as a skill(not yet known wich skill and for who) with X procent change of succeeding.Turn based is not too easy,it's just not really neccesary to use it if monsters are too weak.But it can actually gives you time to think,strategically,before acting if you encounter (alot)strong monsters,strong ranged monster could kill you before even knowing whats going on.Also for spells like meteor,starburst,spells with area effect turn based is a must.And ofcourse to maintain the "m&m spirit" ..No one will force you to use turn based,but it must stay an option in my opinion
guilds:


Yeah you are right we need to have a turn based system. I don't know about having a body specific damage system as a skill. I just don't think it works out. I'm totally open to any other suggestions to fix this problem. Maybe make it you can target certain body parts to do more damage but it depends on your accuracy to hit those parts. IE you will need better accuracy to hit some guy in the head with a bow, but if you do you will score more damage.

accabear wrote:
Well, we had sort of merchant guild in MM - you can trade items between towns (brandosk pulp in MM8), get rewards for creatures tropheries (wivern's horn) or simple get bounty hunt from town council. So, you only need to widen out town council authorities. After all, merchants nearly always were conected with towns representatives (in one or another way).

what about making more of those "town activities", class connected?like the one above would be for the ranger..?


Sorry but that wasn't my post there. I generally capitalize proper nouns and have slightly better spelling (no offense to the person who posted). I don't actually have a copy of MM8 either...

pets:
the dragon,titan,demon overpowered..?
@accabear:just like any other pet they would have a level up system.
Also have to think about the time it takes to obtain pet,some will take more time as others.
Perhaps they will have diffrent strong and weak points...thats true
But the somewhat stonger looking pets might have a "own will", if your connection with them isn't good enough they will not always listen to you.

Mit babies?yes or nono...
childhood,yes or nono..


No seriously just go for the more moderate pets. I can't imagine walking about with a titan as a pet or feeding it. How will you fit that thing on a coach for transport? Go for things like perhaps imps, baby wyverns and other small and not overly evil/big/monstrous creatures.

Children in the game? Uh no. Babies? Uh no. I think we should keep the realistic within the realms of the game, don't make the possibilities too endless.

accabear wrote:
Next - warrior guild - well, here is problem. If you chosse for your character promotion to Dark Knight and another for Paladin, I don't think that these two warrior can coexist in one guild (characters can somehow fight arm to arm). I think that better is simple not creating that kind of guild but gave some quest to people/warriors/rulers of different lands/country. (Further discussion needed)

getting more facilities depending on your rank within a guild sounds super, they will have quests to increase the rank/loyalties.The idea of guilds at war is great too and i think guild loyalties won't be much of a problem.Since every town from humans,elves,dwarfs,necromancers,... will have different cultivated warrior guilds,mage guilds(though they will all have the same basic stuff)Not all guildleaders of the same guildtype will be best friends over the world..So When entering a guildwar(between different or same guildtype)and you chose a side of a specific cultivated guild,you will automatically get banned by the opposite specific guild/attacked by its followers when entering it in that town.however entering such a guildwar is your own choice.If we take M&M7 for instance and asume their are warrior guilds in each town.the black knight promotion would be available in deja with a loyal servant of the warrior guild from that town to promote you,the paladin would be available in celestia.So you can't have for example the paladin/black knight promotion in the same guild.(at least not in the same town) one choice will also disable the other.so you can't have both extremes in one party at the same time. you'll only be able to join guild depening on your class.
the facilities/rankings available in a specific guild depends also on the band you have with that leader.
the band leader of the same guildtype have with each other,affects how powerfull a specific guild will be opposed to other guilds.you can try to restore order to a guildtype or make more conflicts between the diffrent country guildleaders and drop it in total chaos.

(Further discussion required…)


How it is in the proposal at the moment:
"Enough quests will be given to people/rulers and diffrent associations,so not everything will depend on guilds.
Only in magic guilds you can be trained to expert and master level (to be GM you mast find teacher/leader in the world). apart from paying the price for teaching you must complete a special quest sometimes"

So the black knight in this case would be someone in the gameworld,not connected to a guild(if connected to anything it would be an association)


Alright then that all sounds fine. The only thing I don't want is like a copy of every single class for a god and evil guild, IE A guild for Black Knights and a guild for Paladins. There would probably be a guild or an order for the Paladins, but for the Black Knights it would just be some dark warrior living somewhere outside in a wasteland. He would probably be attached to some association as you mentioned and him and his association might participate in some sort of private war with the order of Paladins.

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Postby accabear » Jan 14 2008, 12:30

Instead of addressing your third post, which seems doesn't really need to be looked through too much. Except for the part with the:

Perhaps those good/bad characters may sometimes suggest something(like the little angel/devil speaking in your head)...
like getting tipsy in a bar(wich gives an endurance boost,but accuracy penalty for instance)
Then you could surprise the gaurds in the front gate or wherever...
I just love when they're like "whats going on" and a few seconds later aaarggh..
with your party going hysteria..pushing off cliffs,on sharp objects,slice troats,using surround objects(like in dark messiah) should be possible too.Perhaps you could create a banner,guildsign,...that gives this surprising invasion thingy an extra "powerfull" though.
It could also be for guild devotion as purpose or...

Maybe some "battle styles" for the party" sneaky,aggressive,defencive,sadomasochistic :p ...or select a few party members who fight together at the same time(use their turn at the same moment to increase the chance to "affect" the target) for instance...


Sure you can run amok in this game although I think the guards should be decently strong so that you'll need to reach a fairly high level to kill them and truly go on a rampage.

Don't know where you're going with that banner thing...

I don't think we should implement any battle styles or 'multiple attacks in one turn'. Just keep it the way it is.

Now I'll go through your edit of the post on page 1 of this thread.

SKILLS

Clothes(skill):robe,pants,trousers,gloves
Disguise(skill):make up,mask,wig,cloak,racial uniforms(particular items correspond to each other to make an outfit of some sort? IE. Erathian royal plate armour, Erathian royal guard’s gauntlets, Earathian royal guard’s halberd etc)
Juwellery(skill)both the ability to wear and create for gadgeteer):rings,bracelets,crowns,helmets,amulets,piercing



I don't think that needs to be implemented either. You shouldn't need a skill to wear clothes or jewelry, besides what would be the point of putting skill points into such skills if all they do is allow you to wear stuff? Also the disguise skill wouldn't work properly. This is mainly because all your characters would require the disguise skill, otherwise you would have one character in a proper disguise and everyone else just walking about in normal amour while bearing weapons. Plus I also think it seems illogical that you need a skill to wear jewelry or clothing. Finally as a side not, I think that players should be able to equip their characters with any weapons and armor, without having the necessary skills. IE. you shouldn't need the shield skill to wield a shield, you just incur a penalty for not having any skill in it.

Since I don't know and don't really think we should concentrate too heavily on the smaller more complicated things like classes and abilities until we have the systems of our project mapped out, I'll leave out any criticism/advice on the classes and abilities. One thing I would mention is that pets shouldn't be race specific and that there is really only one slot for them in a party, so you can only have one pet at a time. Perhaps you can keep several others at your home/guild?

Also I notice you have pixies as a race. I don't really know about having them in as an official race... perhaps you should consider half orcs or halflings?

I'll discuss other things like transformations and further details later. Again like I said we'll map out the way things should work first before going into the intricacies.



CHARACTERS CREATION
You can spend some points on the following

Might
vitality
Intelligence
endurance
accuracy
dexterity
luck

each race has diffrent starting values...
Chosing for male or female will also make a minor diffrence in those values:
Males have more might and endurance
Female have more vitality and flexibility

you can still give characters any name

Shape:faces and body parts,colour hair,eyes,lenght, every bodypart can be costumized..
condition:fat-average-atletic-fit-slim affects things like endurance,vitality,..

there will be some standart characters available(like in previous M&M games) if you want to skip this part.
Each race will have a standart male-female model to make editing a bit easier


Remove vitality, endurance sits in nicely for that one. Also put in personality. make males have a slight advantage in might and endurance. Females have a slight advantage in accuracy and intelligence.

PERSONALITY
Each race will have some standard settings wich could be costumized.
social
cheerfull
courteous
sympathic
sarcastic
shy
sadistic
honest
hysterical
hypercinetic
aggressive
rightreous
addiction(alcohole,...)
faith(in life,oneself,others)

good---------evil
sane------------crazy
smart---------dumb(in behavior)
clear----------dim
realistic----------naive
serene-----------drama queen
graceful----------clumsy
expansive--------kept back
altruism---------ego centric
believable-----------ambitious(goals in life cyclus will be more effective)
friendly-----impolite
humble-------------arrogant
involved-----indiffrent
mature------immature
modest------vain
optimistic------pessimistic
serious-----silly
encourage whats necessary-----------convenient
dynamic------------passive
open for improvement--------self satisfied
develope self (how able the character is to change personality during game)---------stays the same(during whole game)


I have a couple of suggestions and changes myself, but I think it isn't all too important at the moment.

Biological Bodyscreen
Beside the character screen with visible equipment there will be a biological bodyscreen
With visible organs,skeleton and recieved body specific damage and stuff

-flesh colour means everything functions properly
-Golden means that part is very active)brains:when very intelligent for instance,heart and or lungs when you have a good shape,genitale area when fertility is high and attracted to someone,...some are permanent,others periodical...
-yellow:lightly damaged/in no good condition
-green:poisoned,diseased
-grey:a rare condition,virus,if you're character becomes an undeath or vampire too
-red:badly damaged,malfunctioning
-black:inactive,disabled,broken(when it's an important organ it can result in death if you wait too long to heal)
totally black when dead

Also transformations sometimes gain new body parts,organs(or they lose some of them)... a quest is involved for transformations or curing viruses.

Condition of the body affects vitality,endurance,speed,....
When you resurrect a character the black parts will return to yellow,and it will take time to fuction with full capacity again,but if it was golden(very active) it will eventually become golden agian if it wasn't a temporarly effect but because of a characters attribute.Gaining beter armour and more hp/strenght,some skilltypes decreases the chances your body will get damaged quickly.Some herbs/potions in the game can make certain organs and body parts very active temporarily,increase condition etc....


It may be abit hard for a player to manage all the biological body things but I think it's not a bad idea. I think this all seems fine, good ideas all this.



Needs
in previous M&M games there were only the need to sleep/eat.
Now also the age you'll chose for a character makes diffrence because every phase of growing up will have needs,"goals" and gain extra skill points or bonuses if those are satisfied...some can unlock new quests or even new possibilities ingame!

Childhood till 13 year (growing up and improving)
Teenager till 18 (excitment and adventure)
Young Adult till 25 (responsability,mating,indipendence)
Adult till 50 (wealth,romance,carreer)
Elder 50+ (knowledge,faith,social contact,environmental satisfaction:older characters will gain a bonus if it goes to their likings)

Turn on's and turn offs(set fetishes)
When your character reaches the age of a young adult/or starts in this phase
you're character will be able to select 3 turn on's and turn offs
A specific personality,experience,specific type of clothes/armour,a specific class type,objects,make up,race types,rich peoples,older/younger,gendertype,undeath,...everything is possible.this will determine who or what your character is attracted to.
Making children will be possible as well(if the situation you chose allows it) you'll have a bonus like self-confidence,proud when having a relation,and when making a child you will be aknowledged as a worthy civilian in that society/amongst that race.
You can make the home of your partner a personal Headquarter,or conquer a guild or castle(in different manners)
to make it your personal HQ,and home for your family(ies) you can have more than one HQ and abandon/sell it at any time.

You can buy special gifts to "seduce" someone.you can start a relation with someone in the party as an npc.
A relation in the party will have some advantage for your party preformance
A relation with an npc will have advantage for your reputation in a society.

A character his child will get some personality and "special gifts" of the father and the mother.
you can take them with you during travels but they can't really function in combat,but they can give some bonuses,take care of the HQ,become an important figure in a society,...A woman character in your party who gets pregnant will suffer some penalties (the child will drain some hp for instance,especially a child from an overlord will drain alot..)and your character will always take a passive and defensive stance(aggresive,teritorial too) in combat during that period.so if it's your female fighter who normally leads the fights,does the most damage...it could be a big disadvantage to become pregnant.You'll need a HQ if you wanna keep the child alive afterwards.
children are an expensive investment.


I've already stated my position on children in the game This includes getting pregnant and having characters start as children. Also I think that the romance factor in this game could be included but should be a subtle side thing but shouldn't really carry all these special bonuses and such.

birthsigns
some have good bonus boosts for mage,fighter,thiefs,..
sometimes also a disadvantage is connected to it..
some signs are kinda neutral,or for any character type good)
Every month a specific sign will also get a small bonus,penalty,or there will be a special event...


Hmmm I don't really know about this. Should we really implement birth signs? I think there are enough bonuses hanging around that we don't really need them.

Alright I'll have to do another part of my analysis tomorrow.

A final note is that in this post I notice I am being fairly pessimistic. I just think that some of these things just don't much bearing or otherwise are kind of unneeded or just not serious enough.

I reckon all the ideas otherwise that I didn't mention were fine or good. I only really mentioned the ideas I didn't agree with in this post. I truly appreciate the amount of effort you are putting into this, something I probably couldn't do that without alot of thought and a decent bit of motivation. All I am really here for is to moderate some of your ideas which are otherwise great.

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White Wizard
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Postby White Wizard » Jan 15 2008, 13:07

the banners/signs:It makes the party recognizable,loyal to a guild,gives players the possibility to be "recognized" in the gameworld.
-npc's will automatically believe/disbelieve you
-you become well know if that sign you're bear is from a powerfull guild/society/..rumors amongs npc's begin to appear
-To give a personale feeling to the party.

body specific damage:mayhaps the identify monster skill could work for this too
but then its more about their strong/weak points(could also be to magic,poison,...)
So it wouldn't always be about monsters body parts...
But you learn how to do more damage and wich attack styles are best.

You think feeding pets should be possible?
pets are race restricted for the same reason classes are race restricted.
for example, an imp for a high druid,an evil eye for a "good" elf isn't that logical to me..it's like a priest of light using dark magic...
-what about "combat pets" and "none combative pets" with an abilities not related to combat...
like the cat/snake/... could distract the gaurds,...
"Battle styles" like aggressive,defensive,passive,..would fit better for the combat pets as for the party members mayhaps..
-Pets can be summoned and unsummoned
-can "improve"
-pets will use their abilities as much as they can.
-instead of promotions pets upgrade when they reach a certain stage.
-you need to find a balance to draw hostile creatures attention on the pet(s)/party.

Perhaps 2 or 3 summonable pets?each character that can use a pet,can summon one pet.but when you summon 2 at the same time each will only receive 50 procent exp,so when using more pets it will be even more difficult to improve them...

The titan,would be only available for the pixie.
Titans have feelings for the small lady types,their glittery appearance,...
They love them,that is why they obey them.
Thinking about it,perhaps the overlord could have a succubis misstress as "lover pet" too
Pets appearance when summoned is only temporarely so it won't be much of a problem.as the would unsummon after x time,or when they get behind...
Perhaps the big pets like the dragon and the titan could only be summoned outdoors...
-wyverns will be added as a pet

besides the pixie,i've been thinking about halflings and orcs as a race,we stated races should be vaguely humanoids and their shouldn't be too many although I don't really think having a few more would be redundant.As long as I can place them properly eventually...

The promotions may look "unbalanced" at the moment but races are good at certain classes,in those classes they can have more promotions then in other class promotions,maybe you should be able to chose if you'd like to promote,who says promoting up should always be "better",and that every race should be able to be every class..anywayz...For such an open character creation few more races would be good me think,eventually most people are like the more possibilities,the more satisfied....ofcourse the quality of a race is more important as the quantity.this will leave me with thinking of ways to put them in the game,what will be the advantages and disadvantages ingame when it comes to classes,wich appropriate classes and racial abilities.
But lets give it a little shot for the halfling/orcs...

I've already profiled the pixie a bit and i think she's pretty sweet....

PIXIES
Transformation:wishmaster
Pets:titan(shaman),treant
Racial ablility:consume magic,fly naturally,poison and diseases immunity
Racial weakness:intense heat and cold

promotions
Knight(paladin)
Thief(bard,assasin,robber)
Ranger(beastmaster,hero)
Cleric(priest of light,valkyrie)
Druid(shaman) unique
Sorcerer(alchemist),extra racial promotion for female pixies:fairy godmother(only character who can wield a magical wand,grandmaster perfumier,...)

she has not to many promotional options at the moment but will have other unique things like the fairy godmother/wand/...
here speciality with buildings is luxery assesoires/naturale environments(gardens,...)

HALFLING
Transformation:troll
pets:Non-combative pets(cats,mouse,wolf,...)
Racial ability:keen hearing,saving trows,hide
Racial weakness:manipulation of mind

buildings speciality:comfort

promotions
knight(champion)
Thief(villian,assassin,spy,robber)
Ranger(master hunter,marksman,sniper,hero)
Cleric(priest of light,priest of darkness)
Druid( ?)
Sorecerer:(?)

ORC
Transformation:ogre
Pets:wyvern
Racial ability:battle rage,bash,hardiness(resistance to stun,...)
Racial weakness:low starting intelligence value,their aggressive ways make them socially weak with other races(diplomacy and stuff)

building speciality:demolition

knight(dread knight,commander,barbarian)
thief(assassin,robber)
ranger(beastmaster)
cleric(heretic)
druid(?)
sorcerer(?)

Ok..players should be able to equipe their characters with any clothes,juwelry,disguise,even armour/weopon (according to the classes.)
Some classes can't get better at certain things but they can wear it,depending on the class it could bring penalties with it.(for instance if the mage uses a plate armour)
So weopons and armour,...should work more like an attribute:
By using a weopon type you would increase the "skill" in that weopon.
In this way you can't distribute skillpoint anymore like it always has been in M&M,as you earn them by "acting" towards the new level(for example you fight alot with the sword so thats were get better at when leveling up.)
a system i'd like to suggest:when leveling up you can choice a new "usage style" with the weopon/a new way to increase the durability of spells/new way to disguise yourself,...The level up style would be "learn to use things" literally,meanwhile learning new ways to use it and other tricks with it(were level ups will be more about:chosing a new way to use...)

-I'll remove vitality,add the personality and adjust the male/female starting value a bit.

-M&M is THE only possible way for me to actually want children and babies...getting bashed in the trash...
I guess you're right and I completly understand the pessimism if they would appear ;)

Birth signs on the other hand are to distinguish the party members from each other a bit more.
It's not just a bonus,will tell more about the characters background,maybe even personality,also will have some effects ingame.


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