They just don't make games this good anymore!

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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BMJedi
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They just don't make games this good anymore!

Unread postby BMJedi » 18 Sep 2007, 23:18

I've recently started replaying MM6 and MM7 after several months (years?) playing Neverwinter Nights, Titan Quest, and Sacred.

Once again I am struck by how darn GOOD MM6 and MM7 are! They have the most addictive character progression system I've encountered in 10 years of gaming.

(Oh, just one more attack on that dungeon so I can get enough gold to buy that shield! ... Just a few more skill points and my sorcerer can finally master Water and cast Lloyd's Beacon! And on and on... I'll eat supper/go to bed/use the bathroom in just a few more minutes because I'm almost to the final room of this dungeon where I can complete my quest and get the treasure!)

I was a huge Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale player in between the era of the MM games and the next generation of games (Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind and such), and while I still love the Infinity Engine series for party feel and teamwork simulation, I think the MM games give me the feeling of being part of a team even better than the BG games.

I usually identify with my sorcerer/druid or cleric character, and sometimes it almost starts to feel like my companions are real people, after I get totally immersed. Part of that immersion comes from the portrait work - I for one have always loved the real actors in the portraits in MM6, and the rendered portraits in MM7 still do a good job of 'emoting' and reacting to events in the game.

All this immersion comes out of graphics that are so primitive, you can see individual pixels. And you know what? It doesn't matter. The immersion comes from the gameplay, not the graphics.

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that the current generation of games have lost somethng special by focusing on great graphics and forgetting how to create great gameplay? (Not that I'll stop playing new games, a lot of them are still good and all, but not as good as MM6/MM7. Or HOMM I, II, III, even IV, for that matter).

Well, sorry about the long post ... I'm off to chip away at the hundreds of skeletons and evil clerics in the temple of Baa.... I hope I get done in time to get to Silver Cove by March 20 so I can get promoted...

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Re: They just don't make games this good anymore!

Unread postby HodgePodge » 19 Sep 2007, 00:49

BMJedi wrote:I've recently started replaying MM6 and MM7 …

Once again I am struck by how darn GOOD MM6 and MM7 are! They have the most addictive character progression system I've encountered in 10 years of gaming. …

… I think the MM games give me the feeling of being part of a team even better than the BG games.

I usually identify with my sorcerer/druid or cleric character, and sometimes it almost starts to feel like my companions are real people, after I get totally immersed. Part of that immersion comes from the portrait work - I for one have always loved the real actors in the portraits in MM6, and the rendered portraits in MM7 still do a good job of 'emoting' and reacting to events in the game.

All this immersion comes out of graphics that are so primitive, you can see individual pixels. And you know what? It doesn't matter. The immersion comes from the gameplay, not the graphics.

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that the current generation of games have lost somethng special by focusing on great graphics and forgetting how to create great gameplay? (Not that I'll stop playing new games, a lot of them are still good and all, but not as good as MM6/MM7. Or HOMM I, II, III, even IV, for that matter).
Yes! :yes: Absolutely! I'm in the middle of my 20th or so game of MM6 and I plan on replaying MM7 when I'm done. The quality of gameplay for many of the older games has yet to be surpassed by today's "rush it out the door" games. Nowadays, it's all about Graphics and 3D but at the expense of a truly enjoyable gaming experience. Too bad. :disagree:
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 19 Sep 2007, 04:21

I agree that there is an extremely addictive quality to all the might and magic (and heroes games).

On the other hand the focius is on combat and not on roleplaying as such a la Planescape Torment or Fallout.

Neither would I dismiss "new" games. For example the recent game Psychonauts was utterly engaging despite being Super Mario Bros. under the skin. I have never been more enthralled by a story in any game ever...I just had to find out what wacky thing was going to happen next. It had a very high level of attention to small detail which is one thing that makes the might and magic games mesh well. It also had superb art style "despite" being 3d.

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Unread postby kucing » 19 Sep 2007, 04:32

PhoenixReborn wrote:On the other hand the focius is on combat and not on roleplaying as such a la Planescape Torment or Fallout.
8|

Torment has much more RPG element in it than Might and Magic! Fallout is approximately similar to MM.

If you are looking for RPG with not much role playing then the following meets that criteria: World of Warcraft, Diablo, Dungeon Siege and a lot of other action games with some RPG element.

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Unread postby darknessfood » 19 Sep 2007, 07:44

I agree with you on what you say! Games these days DO focus more on the nice looks then gameplay. Storylines are basic (you've read them all, or what is say "same sh*t different day). Older games are much more build for gameplay, and that's nice about it.
So gamedevelopers, THINK ABOUT GAMEPLAY FIRST!!!

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Unread postby DaveO » 19 Sep 2007, 10:49

Considering that RPG releases have been few and far between for the past several years, I don't see the problem being gameplay. Instead, most companies releasing now are looking at the Return on Investment, and unfortunately consoles are where a lot of money is made.

Consider the fact that any new game will cost millions to develop even before release, and I can understand why RPG releases are rare. Fantasy is BY FAR the hardest genre to write for without being cliched, predictable, or plain boring.

Immersive gameplay is a very hard thing to achieve, and I can count a few games that do it very well.
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Unread postby Lord13 » 20 Sep 2007, 13:57

I agree, today we don't see good cRPGs as MnM 6-7.
I am huge fun of party based cRPG(with turn based
combats ofc), a genre that many old good games
released(including the top MnM 6-7 ofc). The best
thing that MnM6-7 has is the combination of true
role playing elements with the harcore combats
(dozens of monsters inside large catacombs and castles).
The skill progression is the best i've seen. But why
today we don't see such a games? One part to blame
imo is MMORPGs, easy money for gaming industry and
now the single players rpgs are forgotten :(
And also from the new single players rpgs you will seldom
see a party-based(turn based is forgoten years now :( )
I hope MnM 10(if will excist ofc) follow the path of the MnM6-8
and give us finally a good old-style cRPG. But to tell the
truth I don't expect anything good for computer industry these
days(they don;t dare to risk creating a more hardcore game),
i put my hopes more on freeware/open-source developers
(MMT is a good example).
DaveO wrote: Consider the fact that any new game will cost millions to develop even before release, and I can understand why RPG releases are rare. Fantasy is BY FAR the hardest genre to write for without being cliched, predictable, or plain boring.
Yeap, that's true, welcome to capitalism after all :P
At old days you didn't see so many millions spent at
creating a computer game, and the businessmen of
gaming industry is logical not to risk so much money
on new ideas. Sometimes i wish computer gaming din't
become so popular...
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Unread postby dcinroc » 21 Sep 2007, 07:19

I agree with what you guys have said, but I'd add another factor;

Many of the early game designers had a background in board games and p&p rpgs. I doubt most designers these days do.

Many old RPGs recreated the "feel" of the p&p experience. Now, all video games feel like...well...video games.

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Unread postby accabear » 21 Sep 2007, 07:31

I was a huge Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale player in between the era of the MM games and the next generation of games (Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind and such), and while I still love the Infinity Engine series for party feel and teamwork simulation, I think the MM games give me the feeling of being part of a team even better than the BG games.
Nope. I definitely think that BG had better character progression then MM mainly because BG had more of a background and a more visible storyline. Also you could actually make your own choices in BG which made a more of a personnel feeling and I really loved the inter party banter.
Last edited by accabear on 22 Sep 2007, 02:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby jeff » 21 Sep 2007, 20:27

I thought my disappointment with H-V was because I was just getting too old to enjoy games and my expectations were just too high. Then I reloaded MM VI and suddenly days were flying by, I could still enjoy a good game and was easily immersed in it. My expectation were in fact justified and I was badly let down by its poor execution. Unfortunately DaveO is right a good turn based party RPG takes a large capital investment and the return barely justifies the risk. Look at Wizardry 8, it was a great RPG with outstanding reviews in most magazines and when delivered it had few bugs. The company quickly released patches that fixed the few that were found. The sales though ok, were not sufficient for them to find investors for a Wizardry 9, even though the team was in place and preliminary work was in progress. So I think fantasy turn based RPGs may well be dead. :rip: :cry:
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Unread postby DaveO » 22 Sep 2007, 14:31

One of the biggest problems is that Action RPGs have been quite unoriginal with most of them being the "Diablo killer". Most of those games are so similar to Diablo 2, that it's no surprise to me that there is little fan enthusiasm. Take Dungeon Siege for example. The first game was open ended enough for character design to let your players do anything. On Dungeon Siege 2, the whole character upgrade path of skills is a cheap copy of Diablo 2's tree.
I'd rather be part bull than a complete sheep.

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Unread postby jeff » 22 Sep 2007, 14:57

DaveO wrote:One of the biggest problems is that Action RPGs have been quite unoriginal with most of them being the "Diablo killer". Most of those games are so similar to Diablo 2, that it's no surprise to me that there is little fan enthusiasm. Take Dungeon Siege for example. The first game was open ended enough for character design to let your players do anything. On Dungeon Siege 2, the whole character upgrade path of skills is a cheap copy of Diablo 2's tree.
You're right and I have several problems with "action" rpgs a big one is a poor AI often gets compensated by speeding up the clock, and I hate trying to out react the computer, if they want they can set the clock so I could never win. The old Eye of the Beholder rpgs demonstrate that trying to protect and fight with a four member team being attacked from all sides was just a nightmare. I also agree with you they have all become variations on the same theme. Unfortunately when you make a turn based game, suddenly a poor AI is quickly exposed. If the company is not prepared for a major investment in the AI then the game itself will fail.
Mala Ipsa Nova :bugsquash:

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 22 Sep 2007, 15:33

I agree with pretty much everything said in this thread.

It's not for no reason that I have not upgraded my computer for 5 years. The last time a computer game made me upgrade was Warcraft 3, and it came out in 2002 or close.

As far as strategy and RPG games go, yeah, traditionality got shafted.

If only Lucasarts released a TRUE Starfighter strategic combat simulator like they did with X-Wing and Tie Fighter back in 1994... with today's graphics... the only thing close were stupid arcade games. I WANT TRUE SIMULATION!


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