MM6-MM8: Are earth and mind the weakest schools?

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MM6-MM8: Are earth and mind the weakest schools?

Unread postby kucing » 10 Sep 2007, 22:16

Since MM6, I noticed that earth and mind are the weakest school. Earth's mass distortion is a joke while other offensive spells are done better by fire or air. The only thing that may make earth worthwhile is the telekinensis. Mind's enslave does not worth to get GM for. It is nice to give a distraction to the opponent but why bother if you can kill them off? Mind blast is interesting but I do not think it's worth while if there fire sorcs around. I always get mind up to master at the highest while earth I may get it when I feel like it. When I do get earth, I only do master for it since GM is not worth while, as far as I can see.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 10 Sep 2007, 22:32

Completely agree.

Further:

- Psychic shock doesn't work properly in neither mm6-mm7. It never deals the full damage no matter how high your mind skill is

- "Blades" seems to completely miss and go through some monsters in MM7 (Dwarves, Gogs) while Lightning bolt always hits

- Mind & Earth Resistance in MM7 are pretty worthless. Most magic attacks will be Air, Water, Fire, or non-resistable.

- Death Blossom is too hard to use (Use Meteor Shower and Starburst if you want the job done)

- All the charming spells are bugged and don't work properly (this include the dark spell "Control Undead" (MM7)

- I only invest points in Earth for: Stone Skin, Rock Blast, Stone to Flesh, Prot Magic (mm6), Telekinesis (mm7)
- I only invest points in Mind for : Cure Paralysis, Cure Insanity, Telekinesis (mm6)

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Unread postby HodgePodge » 11 Sep 2007, 03:49

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:Completely agree.

Further:

- Psychic shock doesn't work properly in neither mm6-mm7. It never deals the full damage no matter how high your mind skill is

- "Blades" seems to completely miss and go through some monsters in MM7 (Dwarves, Gogs) while Lightning bolt always hits

- Mind & Earth Resistance in MM7 are pretty worthless. Most magic attacks will be Air, Water, Fire, or non-resistable.

- Death Blossom is too hard to use (Use Meteor Shower and Starburst if you want the job done)

- All the charming spells are bugged and don't work properly (this include the dark spell "Control Undead" (MM7)

- I only invest points in Earth for: Stone Skin, Rock Blast, Stone to Flesh, Prot Magic (mm6), Telekinesis (mm7)
- I only invest points in Mind for : Cure Paralysis, Cure Insanity, Telekinesis (mm6)
Completely agree with your assessment of the Earth-Mind situation, UHO. :-D
UHO wrote:(Use Meteor Shower and Starburst if you want the job done)
Meteor Shower & Starburst are far superior to Death Blossom, Rock Blast or Mass Distortion. I just wonder why NWC/3do moved Telekinesis from Mind to Earth in MM7 & 8. It doesn't seem to fit very well in Earth Magic. ;|
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Unread postby Lord13 » 11 Sep 2007, 08:01

Agree too. Earth magic is useless and from mind magic
i only use bersek(nice to see monsters fight each other)
and cure insanity.
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Unread postby kucing » 11 Sep 2007, 09:59

That's good that people also find earth and mind to be weaker than the rest. I guess they didn't put too much thought on school balancing.

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Unread postby accabear » 11 Sep 2007, 10:24

Yeah definitely. Earth and Mind are fairly large wastes of time. You are better off using potions or scrolls to fix up any nasty conditions. Too many creatures are immune to mind magic also, meaning charm spells are near useless. I recall that basically the most powerful creature that could be charmed was the Troll, or maybe it was the Hydra?

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Unread postby Avonu » 11 Sep 2007, 16:49

I don't think that these schools are weak but they are used less then other magic schools.
Earth Magic - mass distorsion isn't IMO joke - if someone has a lot of hp (dragons, titans or someone with 30 000hp ;)) then this spell is very useful.
Slow is another very usful spell - check it on Master of Sword or Behemoths - you can easier kill them when they can reach your position (Spawning Pool in The Pit).

Mind Magic - IIRC Mok's patch repairs Psychic Shock - so if you used this patch, PS will be working correct.
Berserk is also good spell - cast it on Master of Sword in Mercenary Guild, Castle Gryphonheart or Markham's Manor and watch for effects.
Telephaty on the other hand is broken (at least in my game version) - when you cast it on monster it showed what item he has (ex. sword). But when you kill this creature and loot it, you find another item - not what Telephaty showed (ex. ring not sword).

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Unread postby DaveO » 12 Sep 2007, 12:11

Earth and Mind aren't entirely useless, and I'm quite surprised nobody mentioned Rock Blast. Sure, it can be harder to use well but its utility of bouncing off walls is quite good if you can nail a group with it.
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 12 Sep 2007, 13:47

DaveO wrote:Earth and Mind aren't entirely useless, and I'm quite surprised nobody mentioned Rock Blast. Sure, it can be harder to use well but its utility of bouncing off walls is quite good if you can nail a group with it.
Actually I did mention Rock Blast, as one of the reasons to invest points in the skill. Read my first post.

It's a great spell in some areas of MM7 (the Maze, Colony Zod)

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Unread postby Bandobras Took » 12 Sep 2007, 14:03

Slow is great. I tend to play Might-heavy parties, and a good slow spell can help when dealing with rapid-attacking things like x of the sword. Stone Skin isn't bad.

But yeah, Mind Magic sucks.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Unread postby Kareeah Indaga » 12 Sep 2007, 14:36

Berserk (excuse me...Enrage) was loads of fun in MMIX though. Pity so much of the late game stuff is resistant/immune Mind in MM7.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 12 Sep 2007, 14:46

And if it wasn't enough, the person in charge of the Mind guild in MM7 is a transgender freak.

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Unread postby HodgePodge » 12 Sep 2007, 16:11

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:And if it wasn't enough, the person in charge of the Mind guild in MM7 is a transgender freak.
  • :rofl:
In defense of Mind Magic in MM7 & 8, I really like the Enslave spell. :-D
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Unread postby kucing » 15 Sep 2007, 15:07

Avonu wrote:I don't think that these schools are weak but they are used less then other magic schools.
They are the weakest hence used less, which is the point.
Avonu wrote:Earth Magic - mass distorsion isn't IMO joke - if someone has a lot of hp (dragons, titans or someone with 30 000hp ;)) then this spell is very useful.
Tried that on late monsters, the damage on most of them is usually not good. Star burst and incinerate deal more damage.
DaveO wrote:Earth and Mind aren't entirely useless, and I'm quite surprised nobody mentioned Rock Blast. Sure, it can be harder to use well but its utility of bouncing off walls is quite good if you can nail a group with it.
Can you please explain why rock blast is good? As far as I can see it is just a slightly stronger and more expensive fireball.

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Unread postby Avonu » 15 Sep 2007, 15:51

kucing wrote:Tried that on late monsters, the damage on most of them is usually not good. Star burst and incinerate deal more damage.
Star Burst don't work in Titan Stronghold and Red Dragons have protection against fire spells. And try kill "Zoop" in MM7 without Mass Distortion - it take eternity before you kill him in "normal" way.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 15 Sep 2007, 15:58

kucing wrote:Can you please explain why rock blast is good? As far as I can see it is just a slightly stronger and more expensive fireball.
It is a manually aimed ball that bounces off walls, thus, you can use its ricochet effects to kill monsters you don't even see yet. (FUN in Minotaur maze)

Ther manual aim is somewhat nice, as sometimes Fireball chooses to aim behind a wall and ends up hurting your guys.

But don't get me wrong, Fireball is still better in most situations.

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Unread postby BTB » 22 Aug 2011, 15:56

In defense of both schools...

Earth has a few decent, though overlooked spells. Rock Blast has already been mentioned, and a few people have brought up how useful Slow can be against the right opponents. I also like using slow to run away from things, specifically the rogue Obsidian Gargoyle I might run into in the Barrow Downs (where I tend to go before learning the "Cure Paralysis" spell). I also don't think Stoneskin is getting enough love, since extra AC is always helpful.

Mind, also has several powerful spells that nobody ever seems to mention. Mind Blast is essentially a more powerful version of Fire Bolt that's preferable unless whatever you're fighting is immune to Mind. Also, Psychic Shock (assuming Mok's fix) is very nice, not to mention the most damaging spell that a Druid is capable of learning. Cure Insanity isn't quite useful, since its benefits outweigh its disadvantages, but Cure Paralysis is a lifesaver in many situations that prevents you from having to carry around loads of white potions and/or spam the hell out of Protection from Magic.

The problem that both schools suffer from is a basic lack of a "killer ap" that propel the other schools into much more useful territory. Berserk and Telekinesis don't really hold up to Fly/Invisibility, Fireball/Haste, Town Portal, Bless/Heroism/Raise Dead, or Heal/Regeneration/Protection From Magic.

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Unread postby tolich » 22 Aug 2011, 16:53

Expert Necromancy, nevertheless!

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Unread postby Mn » 23 Aug 2011, 10:40

Yes, Thiose schools are weakest from others. Most of useful spells (exclude Telekinesis and some others) may be used by mixed potions. I never raised those magic schools in original games, but it is desire to do in MODs.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 06 Sep 2011, 04:34

Have to disagree with this one.

Mind magics are not weaker than others. Actually, their effect are usually so great and devastating that most creatures are given some kind of resistance against them to balance the game, without which, it will easily dominate.

Just remember, with mind magic, the spell won't affect the health/portion of health of a target, but the whole target itself, placing it out of equation altogether regardless of its strength. Very few spells from other school, when it hit the target properly, would have such devastating effect.


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