Might and Magic from the 'Platinum Era'

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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DaveO
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Might and Magic from the 'Platinum Era'

Unread postby DaveO » 14 Apr 2007, 01:01

I've read the three articles about the history of Role Playing Games, and here is the author's opinion on the M&M series starting from #6 -http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070 ... n_06.shtml

I must admit that he has some interesting points, concerning the lack of RPG diversity now as well as how many newcomers to the genre will not likely experience the richness and uniqueness of the older RPGs like Wizard's Crown and Eternal Dagger. I'd certainly would like to believe in his optimism that a new game will break the mold and rejuvenate the genre, but the time of single player RPGs is passing into harder financial justification when a MMORPG design will 'herd the masses' into the lemming pay-to-play scams that have driven a lot of life out of the RPG market.
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 14 Apr 2007, 04:17

Well, there is yet hope for diehard rpg fans. Not every rpg game being produced is diablo style. NWN is still alive and well with an expansion for NWN2 anounced yesterday and the PRC Consortium working on adding the content they had developed for NWN to it. Fallout 3 has been in development for a while by Bethesda Softworks (makers of Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion), and the Shivering Isles expansion just came out for Oblivion.

I would like to see the Might and Magic series continued as well as more party based DnD games.

I wish Dark Messiah had been developed more like Ultima Underworld than a first person shooter. I think it would have much better recieved.

I also wish some turn based party rpgs would be produced, along the vein of Ultima 6 and prior Ultima games.

I do like the diablo style games but too many of them are produced and not enough deep rpg games.

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Unread postby Apeman » 14 Apr 2007, 09:00

Great read those articles, everything from Might and Magic, the Infinity Engine and Fallout. As to where RPG's are going in the future, I think there is one game that will set the trend once more.

Bioware revived the genre when they published Baldur's Gate. They will do it again when Dragon Age hits the shelves.

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Unread postby Talin_Trollbane » 20 Apr 2007, 18:14

I must admit that he has some interesting points, concerning the lack of RPG diversity now as well as how many newcomers to the genre will not likely experience the richness and uniqueness of the older RPGs like Wizard's Crown and Eternal Dagger. I'd certainly would like to believe in his optimism that a new game will break the mold and rejuvenate the genre, but the time of single player RPGs is passing into harder financial justification when a MMORPG design will 'herd the masses' into the lemming pay-to-play scams that have driven a lot of life out of the RPG market.
yeah, those were great games, along with the Golden Box series and those other SSI games, Questron, Shard of Spring, Demons Winter etc
(luckily i still have my copies of above mentioned games, if im in need of nostalgia now and then B-) )

but its kinda sad that superbly, wonderfully made CRPGS seems to dwindle while cookiecutter MMORPGS are springing up like weed all over the place...
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Unread postby DaveO » 22 Apr 2007, 14:42

Unfortunately, making computer games is a business and the first goal of a business is to make a profit. So the likeliest design to make a return on investment is the subscription based MMORPG. I will never subscribe to an online game for a number of reasons. The largest reason is that I like to feel that I can take my time exploring, questing, leveling, etc in whatever game I play. Paying a monthly fee to play a game just encourages too much orientation to rushing thru the experience. Besides, I have too much of a backlog to even seriously consider an MMORPG. :ashamed:
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Unread postby HodgePodge » 22 Apr 2007, 16:26

DaveO wrote:Unfortunately, making computer games is a business and the first goal of a business is to make a profit. So the likeliest design to make a return on investment is the subscription based MMORPG. I will never subscribe to an online game for a number of reasons. The largest reason is that I like to feel that I can take my time exploring, questing, leveling, etc in whatever game I play. Paying a monthly fee to play a game just encourages too much orientation to rushing thru the experience. Besides, I have too much of a backlog to even seriously consider an MMORPG. :ashamed:
I totally agree with your assessment of MMORPG's. I also will NEVER pay to play a game I've already spent big bucks on to purchase. Paying to play a game I already bought is tantamount to extortion!

People who encourage this practice by paying to play are FOOLS! They are cheapening the gaming experience and killing the gaming industry by paying twice to play an online game; thereby encouraging greedy publishers to make their money by forcing monthly payments to play instead of making quality the top priority for the games they produce.

Besides, I like to play a game at my own pace and in my own way … I won't be dictated to by the need to pay for the "privilege" to play a game I already bought; and then not be allowed to enjoy my gaming experience because I have to deal with unknown players who are online at the same time as myself.

Not only that but MMORPG's are at the mercy of whoever controls the server. If the server(s) are defunct after a time, then one can no longer play the game. Legends of Might & Magic is a case in point! NO! NO! to MMORPG's!
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Unread postby jeff » 22 Apr 2007, 21:06

And I make three; I will also never pay to play online. I loved the gold box and other SSI RPGs, and loved the Wizardry series as well, though many felt they were too difficult, but the AI in Wizardry 8 was great. Though the MM series was probably my favorite and I still pull 6, 7 and 8 out every now an then. If TELP ever finishes their 1.4 patch, I'll pull MM9 out and finish it. Let’s hope the MMT team stays with it until they finish their project.
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Unread postby Kareeah Indaga » 22 Apr 2007, 22:10

I tried Guild Wars some time back. Couldn’t really get into it. But then I don’t generally game to socialize, which seems to me to be the primary reason someone would play an MMORPG. I also tend to game as a fall back when I can’t go online (not that I don’t game when I can go online, mind…). An MMORPG makes that…difficult, at best.

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Unread postby Campaigner » 23 Apr 2007, 03:50

I would say that the RPG and Action-RPG market is 50-50 since I can think of more RPG games then Action-RPG ones. We got Diablo II + LoD, Sacred + Underworld and Titan Quest + Immortal Throne.

On the RPG part, we got Baldurs Gate + expansions and Icewind Dale + expansion, Elder Scrolls III & IV + expansions, Temple of Elemental Evil and KotOR and KotOR II.

Don't know where to place NWN and NWN II though.

Kinda strange that I can think of more good RPG games instead of Action-RPG ones when I love Action-RPG ones but can't play RPG games. (I'm gonna start with Baldurs Gate but I need help as to how to play it). I'd say RPG games are just as big as RTS are.

Note: I don't care about sorting CRPG games into a box. Realtime RPGs are in the upper category and the rest (turnbased/pause function) in the lower one. All games I listed are those I know to be of good quality.


About MMOs.....Don't you people realize that MMOs get updated with new content, bugfixes etc. pretty often and being able to maintain lagfree gameplay costs good money in servers..?

I would pay a euro a month for great multiplayer support in a normal RTS/FPS/TBS since you would be pretty much guaranteed that the game gets supported as long as people pay.
There could be scoreboards, automatic tournaments, good developer interaction and more.

You people who are so against paying for good support after you paid for the game are stuck in the past. Nowadays we can talk go developers (for most part stupid community managers though like that b**** over at the ubiforums) and get them to atleast consider our suggestions, play multiplayer for free and such but somewhere along the way some people think that everything regarding games should be free....
Last edited by Campaigner on 24 Apr 2007, 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby Meandor » 23 Apr 2007, 07:23

Campaigner wrote:On the RPG part, we got Baldurs Gate + expansions and Icewind Dale + expansion, Elder Scrolls III & IV + expansions, Temple of Elemental Evil and KotOR and KotOR II.

Don't know where to place NWN and NWN II though.
Icewind Dale and Temple of elemental evil aren`t that good. They are more about killing stuf than characters or story. I would have liked Icewind Dale 2 more if they allowed to join "bad guys" which often were shown as being not so bad. ToEE reminds me of Lionhert, they started good, i was really interested in them but then suddenly i got the feeling that developers didin`t knew what to do next and made huge dungeons with lots of stuff to kill for no real reason.
And you should add to that list Vampires the masquarade: Bloodlines and Arcanum. They have their bugs and problems but imho they are clearly superior to IceWind Dale and ToEE.
Campaigner wrote:About MMOs.....Don't you people realize that MMOs get updated with new content, bugfixes etc. pretty often and being able to maintain lagfree gameplay costs good money in servers..?
Problem with MMO is that they attract many, many gamers and even "normal computer users". With this other genres have difficult time with profit because their games have hard time in interesting casual gamers- they have WoW and they don`t need anything else. What they do then? They decide to create their own MMO. If this continues then we might end up with MMO and nothing else.
Apeman wrote:Bioware revived the genre when they published Baldur's Gate. They will do it again when Dragon Age hits the shelves.
I`m really looking forward for it, it might end up even as a second game i own :devil: or third if Disciples 3 launches first.
...

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Unread postby DaveO » 23 Apr 2007, 11:28

I can understand the argument about the 'need' for fees to add MMORPG content. However in my opinion, the price of the game should be all they need to make the additional content. The monthly fee charge is too high to justify, and only encourages obsessive play. About every week you hear about some online gamer dying due to excessive play.

Due to Blizzard's success with 'World of Borecraft', that 800 pound gorilla is only going to make single player and non-fee multiplayer RPGs even harder to justify. Success breeds imitation, so you could probably count on one hand the number of companies that have the courage to go away from the cookie cutter mentality that is pervading and corrupting the RPG market.
Last edited by DaveO on 23 Apr 2007, 11:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby klaymen » 23 Apr 2007, 11:31

I think that the "real" RPGs will extinct or survive only for some hardcore RPG fans (as free or indie games). More people will play such games like Titan quest, Sacred or something else and call them "the best RPGs". Look at Jade Empire - it's from Bioware - the creators of good (for lazy people and noobs called hardcore) RPGs (BG, ID), but there is a lot of action, I played it only for some minutes until I got sick from it. Do you think that they will make hardcore RPGs? No, because the people will like more those clickfest games. Altar Interactive wanted to create a hardcore RPG for real fans (callled Vision), but they didn't find any distributor for it, because games like that won't earn enough money, so the project has ended.
So if mainstream will want classic-like RPGs, they will be developed. IMO this will never happen.

And about tohse MMORPGs - I also won't pay monthly to be allowed to play some game, so I play Guild Wars and I'm satisfied.
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Unread postby Campaigner » 23 Apr 2007, 15:04

Forgot to mention it, but I too think the monthly price for WoW is WAY to high. No way in hell I'm paying 11 euro/month to play a game online! 2 or 3 euro though would be reasonable.

It's partly gamemagazines fault for all those realtime RPGs since they call everything from Diablo to Baldurs Gate 'RPG'. They should call the games by their correct names such as 'realtime w/ pause', 'turnbsed w/ pause' and 'realtime'.

But even Baldurs Gate II is realtime in that you have to pause and issue orders?

About people preferring realtime Action-RPGs over turnbased and realtime w/ pause is that they're fun and easy to play. I can get into Sacred or Diablo II immidietly but Baldurs Gate II and Icewind Dale II I didn't understand how to play. Gonna give them a last try though.
Last edited by Campaigner on 24 Apr 2007, 06:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postby Meandor » 23 Apr 2007, 15:48

klaymen wrote: Look at Jade Empire - it's from Bioware - the creators of good (for lazy people and noobs called hardcore) RPGs (BG, ID), but there is a lot of action, I played it only for some minutes until I got sick from it. Do you think that they will make hardcore RPGs? No, because the people will like more those clickfest games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Age
BioWare describes Dragon Age as a 'spiritual successor' to the Baldur's Gate series, saying also that the features of Dragon Age will be a combination of their previous titles including Neverwinter Nights, and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.
I don`t know, that looks promising.
...

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Unread postby DaveO » 23 Apr 2007, 23:21

Thanks for posting the information about Dragon Age. I do admit that it looks interesting, but I refuse to get my hopes up in order to not be disappointed by expecting too much. KotoR and NWN had very similar SP campaigns, and I did enjoy the KotoR story.

Back to the MMORPG discussion, I still don't understand why there is a subscription fee at all. Adding new content would be covered by an expansion pack. Bethesda had two official expansions to Morrowind, and who knows how many will come out for Oblivion. :stop:

P.S. - I would highly encourage you to play thru both Icewind Dale 2 and Baldur's Gate 2. The strategic finesse for both is no doubt trickier than the previous game, but that does not mean you can't have fun along the way. :hoo:
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Unread postby [T]osHiro » 24 Apr 2007, 11:00

HodgePodge wrote:I totally agree with your assessment of MMORPG's. I also will NEVER pay to play a game I've already spent big bucks on to purchase. Paying to play a game I already bought is tantamount to extortion!

People who encourage this practice by paying to play are FOOLS! They are cheapening the gaming experience and killing the gaming industry by paying twice to play an online game; thereby encouraging greedy publishers to make their money by forcing monthly payments to play instead of making quality the top priority for the games they produce.

Besides, I like to play a game at my own pace and in my own way … I won't be dictated to by the need to pay for the "privilege" to play a game I already bought; and then not be allowed to enjoy my gaming experience because I have to deal with unknown players who are online at the same time as myself.

Not only that but MMORPG's are at the mercy of whoever controls the server. If the server(s) are defunct after a time, then one can no longer play the game. Legends of Might & Magic is a case in point! NO! NO! to MMORPG's!
Just so you know, there are some MMORPG that are downloadable and free to play. The only drawback is that you will pay real money to purchase to special items like fashionable costumes or useful scrolls. However, such items can be trade for virtual money (means you can get them for free, but you need lots of virtual money).

As you said HodgePodge, playing a game that comes with monthly fees is a total rip-off. I wonder why millions of 'gamers' are willing to throw aawy hard-earn cash just to "socialize with different people around the world". I don't think people would gladly pay money to grind (repititive killing), considering the time need to just level up, so I rule out this fact as prime reason to play. So that probably leaves "socializing". But then again, have they heard of forums? :|
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Unread postby DaveO » 25 Apr 2007, 12:55

Many of the games I've played have had a forum of some type. However, people may be afraid to post to forum boards either due to the added time involvement(especially if searching thru posts) or perhaps the fear of being ridiculed(the most likely reason IMO). If you're not a 'cookie cutter' powerleveler you're pretty much looked down upon by the people seeking to turbo thru the game. As I mentioned before I'd much rather have fun along the way than to be concerned about how 'non1337' my skills are or how some may feel that I'm playing the game wrong.

P.S. - This reply is a bit off-top, so let's all please try to keep the discussion on the 'train tracks' as much as possible. ;)
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Re: "The Platinum Age"

Unread postby Lyanne » 26 Apr 2007, 01:58

Thanks for the link to the interesting article. I have played and
completed every Might & Magic game from I to IX, and I've enjoyed
them all, and I consider each an advance from the one before (Oh,
ok! Perhaps that's not true of IX, which IMO should not have been
released. I still recall my amazement that the game didn't even have
an evocative name. It seemed really cheezy, but I still managed to
get into the game and enjoy it.)

I can't help but wonder if this man played the same MMVIII that I have
played so many times I have lost track. To me, the standout games
in the series are III (a huge leap forward from II), VI and VIII (which,
while not a technical advance over VII, to me is quite revolutionary.
It is relatively short, and the way the game is set up encourages solo
play and the joyous freedom thereof.) If I could pick only one CRPG
to return to over and over, it would be MMVIII. I'm sure not everyone
regards it with as much affection as I, but I disagree that most fans
of the series were as disappointed by it as he claims.

On the other hand, there's no denying that 3DO was in a downward
spiral during this period, but I believe there were other factors
that had little to do with the MM series.

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Unread postby DaveO » 26 Apr 2007, 11:37

I have enjoyed playing solo games thru MM8. In fact, MM8 is the one I've played more than MM6. Part of the reason are the Minotaurs in the game, but I do agree that going thru the game completely tends to not take too long. I'm pretty sure my solo game sessions took a few months at the most. MM6 requires much more time to complete.

As much as people may complain about the skill restrictions set up in MM7, I believe it was a more realistic approach although having all characters being able to use skills without restrictions in MM6 is appealing. MM6 also had the Lloyd's Beacon run, where you'd try to get to Free Haven within a reasonable time and purchase Town Portal and Lloyd's Beacon. There were certain prerequisites to cast both spells in MM6, but not as restrictive as in MM7 and MM8.
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