MM History question

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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MM History question

Postby mrPassenger » Sep 19 2006, 14:51

Hi everyone,
I was curious as to where MM9, Heroes 4 (and expansinos), and Heroes 5 fit chronologically into the MM history.
My understanding is that MM9 and Heroes 4 take place on the same world. How about 5?
And does MM9 preceed the story of heroes 4 and expansions, or does it fit somewhere in the middle?

Thanks,
-mrP

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Postby klaymen » Sep 19 2006, 15:47

Heroes 5 is in another world "created" by Nival plagiators - the story is very similar to Warcraft 3 (Nival has copied everything that wasn't protected by copyright)
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Postby Marzhin » Sep 19 2006, 15:54

OK, so here we go...

Might and Magic I takes place on a world called VARN, MM2 on CRON, MM3 on TERRA, MM4 & 5 on XEEN. There is a continued story between them, the battle against the guardians Corak and Sheltem across the universe.

Heroes of MM 1 introduced the land of Enroth. There is speculation if this could be the same world as MM1 (some characters are the same - Lord Ironfist, Lord Kilburn -, there is a place called Tomb of Varn in Enroth, etc) I HoMM1 Lord Ironfist becomes King of Enroth. Heroes of MM 2 takes place a generation later, after the Death of Lord Ironfist. His sons wage war against each other for the throne.

The next big chapter of MM history begins with MM6. Still set on Enroth, this is the first appearance of the demonic invaders, the Kreegans. Heroes III moves on another continent of the same world, Antagarich, and tells the war for the Restoration of the kingdom of Erathia, which is teared apart by his neighbours. MM7 and 8 continue to follow the continuity of the Kreegan plot, culminating in Heroes III's add-on, Armageddon's Blade.

Then the world is destroyed (following the events of the Heroes Chronicles), survivors go through dimensional portals to a new world, Axeoth, where Heroes IV and MM9 take place. Then New World Computing and 3DO went bankrupt...

Heroes V is a completely different story. UbiSoft bought the rights on Might and Magic but choose to go for a totally new universe, Ashan, which has apparently no links to the old one.

A great article about MM History can be found on various places on the web, the nearest being here : http://www.celestialheavens.com/373

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Postby mrPassenger » Sep 19 2006, 16:24

Thanks, I had seen that link, and actually it is what prompted me to ask where MM9, and the HoMM4 + expansions fit in with relation to each other.

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Postby Avonu » Sep 19 2006, 16:36

Small update (no offence Marzhin):

Marzhin wrote:Heroes of MM 1 introduced the land of Enroth. There is speculation if this could be the same world as MM1 (some characters are the same - Lord Ironfist, Lord Kilburn -, there is a place called Tomb of Varn in Enroth, etc)

Enroth is another world than VARN (IIRC in MM1 was VARN 4 and in MM6 was VARN MCMIV) - also on Enroth are characters from CRON (Lamanda, Slayer) and from XEEN (Crodo, Yog and many more) and even from Terra (Kastore - wait, didn't he arrive in MM7 much later than story from H1 take place? ;) )

Heroes of MM 2 takes place a generation later, after the Death of Lord Ironfist.

On some forums/portals I found information it was 25 years after H1 but I can't tell if is it true.

The next big chapter of MM history begins with MM6. Still set on Enroth, this is the first appearance of the demonic invaders, the Kreegans.

It had hapenned 10 years after end of Sucession Wars (H2).

Then the world is destroyed (following the events of the Heroes Chronicles), survivors go through dimensional portals to a new world, Axeoth, where Heroes IV and MM9 take place. Then New World Computing and 3DO went bankrupt...

Lysander's campaign start about 4 years after destruction of "world of Enroth" (and Antagarich) and rest of H4 campaigns start probably later. I don't have any idea when can be TGS or WoW (maybe before H4, maybe past H4 or maybe in this same time - I didn't find any clue).
And MM9 IMHO is earlier than H4 - abouts weeks or months after Reconing (Nicolai and his story about how he "landed" on Chedian - IMO he was in Chedian shorter than one year)

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Postby Marzhin » Sep 19 2006, 16:49

Avonu wrote:Small update (no offence Marzhin)


No problem, I didn't want to go into the details.

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Postby Kareeah Indaga » Sep 20 2006, 3:21

AB actually happened before MM8. Catherine and Roland make reference to it in 8, and Escaton mentions the Kreegan were already gone when he arrived.

Avonu wrote:Enroth is another world than VARN (IIRC in MM1 was VARN 4 and in MM6 was VARN MCMIV) - also on Enroth are characters from CRON (Lamanda, Slayer) and from XEEN (Crodo, Yog and many more) and even from Terra (Kastore - wait, didn't he arrive in MM7 much later than story from H1 take place? ;) )


Yes, a lot of that was probably just referencing (or else time travel gone wrong ;)). It’s so hilarious playing H2 and finding a town called Vertigo or a Warlock castle named Sheltemburg. :-D

As for MMIX, I’ve heard Nicolai was 23 in that, and he was 10 in MMVI and IIRC 16 in Armageddon’s Blade. I also did some research with Lysander’s Campaign. (Skip to the bottom for the important stuff, this is just my line of thinking):

Desette said it had been 6 years since she’d last seen her husband. Since he was the Gryphonheart swordbearer and while Morgan Kendall was regent he wasn’t a Gryphonheart SFAIK, it isn’t unreasonable to assume he left with Catherine to go to Enroth. Assuming there wasn’t more than a year between that map and the first one, that means the Reckoning was 2 years after AB.

The Demon War ended the year before MMVIII according to the story in MMVIII, and MMVIII started in 1172 AS. So following this line of reasoning we get the following:

1162 – Night of Shooting Stars
1165 – MM6, Catherine leaves for Enroth (Nicolai 10)
1168 – MM7, Restoration War has ended
1171 – Demon War in here (Nicolai 16)
1172 – MM8
1173 – Reckoning
1177 – Lysander’s Campaign
1178 – MMIX (Nicolai 23)

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Postby Avonu » Sep 20 2006, 6:57

Kareeah Indaga wrote:As for MMIX, I’ve heard Nicolai was 23 in that

Interesting. I never find what exacly age was Nicolai. Do you remember where you heard that?
But from his behavior I can't image that he is older than 20 years old (but from other hand - looking some politicans in real world - yes, Nicolai may be older than 20 years and still behavior like child ;) )

Desette said it had been 6 years since she’d last seen her husband. Since he was the Gryphonheart swordbearer and while Morgan Kendall was regent he wasn’t a Gryphonheart SFAIK, it isn’t unreasonable to assume he left with Catherine to go to Enroth. Assuming there wasn’t more than a year between that map and the first one, that means the Reckoning was 2 years after AB.


Well, it is possible (but what with Chronicles 3-6 and 8?). And I remember that in another campaign of H4 (barbarian or chaos - I check it later) is evidence (or rather clue) that it was 4 years.


The Demon War ended the year before MMVIII according to the story in MMVIII, and MMVIII started in 1172 AS. So following this line of reasoning we get the following:

1162 – Night of Shooting Stars
1165 – MM6, Catherine leaves for Enroth (Nicolai 10)
1168 – MM7, Restoration War has ended
1171 – Demon War in here (Nicolai 16)
1172 – MM8
1173 – Reckoning
1177 – Lysander’s Campaign
1178 – MMIX (Nicolai 23)


No, Demon War ended in year before "year of Destroyer - 1172" (that is great difference - or I didn't understood exacly your post ;) ).
Now some things from Archie's diary (MM7 manual)
11 June 1165 - Archie freed from stone (end of MM6?)
5 August 1167 - Catarine's speech at end of Restoration War (end of H3)
(end of Archie's diary)
about 1168-69 - MM7 and freed Roland (after 6 years of Kreegan's "hospitable")
about 1169-71 - Armageddon's Blade
1172 - Day of Destroyer (started in sunny, winter day (January?))

And now - if Nicolai wasn't 23 years old and team from MM9 met him after weeks or months of his "arriving" on Chedian (that I assume from his story and behavior - but I may be wrong), that mean it was in year of Reconing (or next year).
Next thing - MM8 ended about 1172-73 and Regna is about 200 miles from Enroth (about 2-3 days of sailing if no less) - it is strange that Nicolai didn't tell anything about his parents. Maybe they didn't arrive to Enroth because Reconing had place (but it is funny that Tarnum in 2-3 years had time to deal with Mature, Elemental Lords and even go to Vori, World Tree or Fiery Moon).

Sorry for my Engrish

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Postby Kareeah Indaga » Sep 21 2006, 19:18

Avonu wrote:Interesting. I never find what exacly age was Nicolai. Do you remember where you heard that?


One of the X-NWCers (Tim Lang, I believe it was) on Castle Gob’s forums. I think.

(I went digging and found it: here )

Avonu wrote:But from his behavior I can't image that he is older than 20 years old (but from other hand - looking some politicans in real world - yes, Nicolai may be older than 20 years and still behavior like child ;) )


He also thought he was still in Enroth. IMO he could have taken some trauma to the head, or just trauma in general.

Avonu wrote:
Desette said it had been 6 years since she’d last seen her husband. Since he was the Gryphonheart swordbearer and while Morgan Kendall was regent he wasn’t a Gryphonheart SFAIK, it isn’t unreasonable to assume he left with Catherine to go to Enroth. Assuming there wasn’t more than a year between that map and the first one, that means the Reckoning was 2 years after AB.


Well, it is possible (but what with Chronicles 3-6 and 8?). And I remember that in another campaign of H4 (barbarian or chaos - I check it later) is evidence (or rather clue) that it was 4 years.


Err, I think I was unclear. Desette saying it had been 6 years was for when the Ironfists left for Enroth, meaning there was a two year space (or thereabouts) for the Sword of Frost campaign and MM8 to take place before the Reckoning, not 6 years since the Reckoning…or am I misunderstanding you?

Waerjak was 23 at the beginning of his campaign.

I checked Tawni’s info and yeah, there looks to be room for a four year stretch between the Reckoning and her campaign:

Tawni age 7: Works at the Rusti Mug (duel between pirates)
Tawni age 10: Meets Black Balfour for the first time
Tawni age 12: Tawni quits from the Rusti mug, meets brother
Tawni age 14: Tawni’s brother Norry killed
Tawni age 17: Reckoning
Tawni age 18-19: For two years after Reckoning, Tawni learns to be a pirate before joining Black Balfour’s crew

Some time after that Tawni is given command of the “Lightening Crack”.
1 year later Black Balfour is killed by Captain Swift, leading to the funeral at the beginning of her campaign.

Avonu wrote:No, Demon War ended in year before "year of Destroyer - 1172" (that is great difference - or I didn't understood exacly your post ;) ).


I’m really sorry, but I’m not sure I understand what you were trying to say here. Could you rephrase it please?

Avonu wrote:about 1168-69 - MM7 and freed Roland (after 6 years of Kreegan's "hospitable")


Some sources say seven. >_< Poor Roland!

Avonu wrote:Maybe they didn't arrive to Enroth because Reconing had place (but it is funny that Tarnum in 2-3 years had time to deal with Mature, Elemental Lords and even go to Vori, World Tree or Fiery Moon).

Sorry for my Engrish


Sword of Frost was definitely after Armageddon’s Blade, but the rest of them I believe were supposed to take place in the past (possibly even so far as a few centuries past). The exception to this would be Mutare and Clash of Dragons, but IIRC her AB campaign made no reference to time except it was presumably sometime near the “present”. All the other AB campaigns (barring Foolhardy Waywardness, which was pre-RoE) made some reference to each other or had reference made to them: AB mentioned the start of the Festival of Life in Catherine’s first map while one of Xeron’s mentioned Xex dropping Sleen in a fight between “a young archmage and a bunch of dragons with butterfly wings “ (might have the wording wrong), presumably Dracon. Playing With Fire made reference to the end of the Festival of Life. But Mutare’s didn’t do any of this, so it could have been earlier; it just had to have been before Sword of Frost, as she is dead at the beginning of it.

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Postby Avonu » Sep 22 2006, 8:17

Kareeah Indaga wrote:One of the X-NWCers (Tim Lang, I believe it was) on Castle Gob’s forums. I think.

(I went digging and found it: here)


Thanks
from Castle Gob's forum wrote:As I recall I think we made Nicolai around 23 in MM9

Hmm, never really thought about that. I figured that he'd been around for a couple weeks or months when the player met up with him.


Hmm - if he is there for couple of weeks or months that could mean:
a) Reconing was in 1177-8 A.S. (Nicolai was about 10 years old in 1165 A.S. - MM6) and MM9 is before H4
b) He "arrvied" some years after Reconing (I don't think so) and Enroth still exist (and Kreegans on Enroth also)

Err, I think I was unclear. Desette saying it had been 6 years was for when the Ironfists left for Enroth, meaning there was a two year space (or thereabouts) for the Sword of Frost campaign and MM8 to take place before the Reckoning, not 6 years since the Reckoning…or am I misunderstanding you?


Yes. I have on my mind that 2 years are very little time to dealing with Mutare, saving World Tree, going to Fiery Moon and searching for Sword of Frost.

Avonu wrote:No, Demon War ended in year before "year of Destroyer - 1172" (that is great difference - or I didn't understood exacly your post ;) ).


I’m really sorry, but I’m not sure I understand what you were trying to say here. Could you rephrase it please?


I have on mind that Armageddon's Blade campaign was in year before year in which Day of Destroyer campaign take place (example: AB could end at December of 1171 and MM8 could start at January of 1172 - but if MM8 was "a year later" that could mean AB end at Januray 1171 - I hope now you can understood that ;) )

Some sources say seven. >_< Poor Roland!

In MM8 he says (somelike that - I have non-english version): "I had been their (Kreegans') prisoner for more than six years" - if it was seven I sure that he would say that.
And he was capture about end of august of 1162 (5th letter to Catharine from MM6 manual - well, year isn't correct there - someone make a mistake - Night of the Shooting Star was in 1162 A.S. for 100%)

The exception to this would be Mutare and Clash of Dragons, but IIRC her AB campaign made no reference to time except it was presumably sometime near the “present”. All the other AB campaigns (barring Foolhardy Waywardness, which was pre-RoE) made some reference to each other or had reference made to them: AB mentioned the start of the Festival of Life in Catherine’s first map while one of Xeron’s mentioned Xex dropping Sleen in a fight between “a young archmage and a bunch of dragons with butterfly wings “ (might have the wording wrong), presumably Dracon. Playing With Fire made reference to the end of the Festival of Life. But Mutare’s didn’t do any of this, so it could have been earlier; it just had to have been before Sword of Frost, as she is dead at the beginning of it.


Yes, I remember this references.
But my question is: when take place World Tree, Fiery Moon and Elemental Lords (before or past AB)?
IIRC in EL is Conflux and in MM8 Elemental Lords are neutral not hostile - doesn't that mean HC:EL take place later than AB? But in other hand in this campaign (EL) some mages were in Earth Plane about 200 years and Tarnum about 60 years.
I didn't play HC 5 to 8 (only read story from many forums) and I don't know exacly they stories.

Waerjak was 23 at the beginning of his campaign.

Can you remeber how old was he in Heroes Chronicles (he was there, isn't he)?
I think that his campaign is last from H4 campaigns (Galdouth mentions about Emilia's problem with barbarians on borders and I think that barbarians under Wearjack command wouldn't attack Great Arcans borders).

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Postby Khaelo » Sep 22 2006, 19:14

In "Dragons" Waerjak is old enough to go hunting by himself but young enough that Tarnum hands him over to Adrienne for babysitting. :D They don't cite a specific age. There is no reference to Waerjak in "Elements." Tarnum is also startled to see that Gavin Magnus is immortal (no change in thirty years); it hadn't been any more than a rumor when he left. By the 1160s, Magnus' immortality was common knowledge. My guess is that "Elements" occurs long before AB, long enough for the Confluxes to disappear and for people to forget them. Then, when they reappear, non-immortals like Catherine etc. are bewildered. No idea why the Elemental Lords are hostile in "Elements," helpful in AB, and neutral-ish in MM8. Also, I haven't re-examined the texts from "World Tree" or "Fiery Moon" yet.

The narrator in AB says that Roland had been in captivity "nearly seven years." Pretty much the same as "more than six." However, I do consider narrators more reliable than Roland himself. In Succession Wars, Roland is a Wizard, and MM6 establishes that "high sorcery" can erode one's memory. This could explain the muddled dates on Roland's letters. ;) (to be kind to the writers)

On the topic of MM history, sort of, the old Nether Gods site had some interesting history info. It's along the right-hand side under "History" once the site finishes loading (and loading and loading and loading...) I'm not sure, but it looks like NWC public relations people were releasing teaser information prior to the release of HoMM3. The article on Queen Catherine is particularly intriguing. It confirms Nicolai's birth year as 1155. Right now, this material is only accessible through the Wayback Machine archive. Would it be possible for Celestial Heavens to rescue it? ;|

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Postby Angelspit » Sep 22 2006, 19:43

Khaelo wrote:Would it be possible for Celestial Heavens to rescue it? ;|

Possibly. But we have a pretty messy to-do list these days. Would you be willing to help with that? :D

Also, I think some of the Nether Gods content has been reprinted at Age of Heroes, but I'm not sure if that includes plot and character background info.

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Postby arturchix » Sep 23 2006, 6:24

I believe that even NWC had no strong storyline and exact facts to base on - just some general guidelines. Or one developer started the story and another - continued with not full knowledge about every single detail of the whole history. That's why there are several inconsistencies and Ubi decided to place Heroes V in a new world, to avoid even more mistakes.

Some time ago I started to write a new version of Might and Magic history but I got lost as I poorly know what happened in MM1-MM5 and haven't played most of the Chronicles and not so much - Heroes I and Heroes II. Would anyone be interested to cooperate with me to finish it? The current version is already way more complete and detailed than the current one reposted here at CH.

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Postby Khaelo » Sep 24 2006, 19:52

Angelspit wrote:Possibly. But we have a pretty messy to-do list these days. Would you be willing to help with that? :D

That depends on what needs doing. :) I'd be happy to help out where I can. (I've some time on my hands and a near obsessive interest in this stuff. ;) )

Age of Heroes doesn't seem to have much by way of plot info from Nether Gods. They do have "Tales from the Swamp" because the Fortress Overview information is missing in action. :outoforder: Everything else looks like game mechanics.

http://hommworld.grantpalin.com/Homm/index.html is the best resource I've found on HoMM 1 campaigns. It has opening texts, win texts, and the mini-maps. Map 4, Free-for-All, bears a passing resemblence to Enroth as depicted in MM6.

Good and Evil are the HoMM2 Succession Wars campaign texts. (Also http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes2/storyline.shtml) As I recall, the only in-map information is on signs and ocean bottles featuring useful comments like "Welcome to Prince Roland's lands -- have a nice day!" :tongue:

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Postby Justice » Sep 24 2006, 20:16

arturchix wrote:Some time ago I started to write a new version of Might and Magic history but I got lost as I poorly know what happened in MM1-MM5 and haven't played most of the Chronicles and not so much - Heroes I and Heroes II. Would anyone be interested to cooperate with me to finish it? The current version is already way more complete and detailed than the current one reposted here at CH.


I only know the story from IV - VIII and HoMM I - IV (except chronicles) and not the IV expansions.
But any help I can give I will be happy to give :D I could for instance read it to check for any possible error and to give you the HoMM I and II story. Don't remember much of MM IV and V

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Postby arturchix » Sep 25 2006, 20:39

Thanks, Justice, one already. :) Anyone else?

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Postby Marzhin » Sep 26 2006, 8:12

I know the story for MMIV and V. You can already find the texts from the manuals here on CH : http://www.celestialheavens.com/534

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Postby Avonu » Sep 26 2006, 8:45

Well - in MM5 are also Corak's, Sheltem's and Dragon Pharaoh's journals (these three are Guardians) and brief story of "most powerful Sorceror on XEEN" - (megalomaniac) Sandro. :D
There is also one more thing in WoX Manual:

Image

In SoX manual also is brief story (nothing special).

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Postby Avonu » Dec 27 2006, 15:49

arturchix wrote:Some time ago I started to write a new version of Might and Magic history but I got lost as I poorly know what happened in MM1-MM5


If you are still working on this project, then these screens from MM3 may help you:

Image Image Image Image
Image Image Image

Image Image Image
Image Image Image


Some proof that Terra was a planet, not a flat world (like worlds in MM1-2 and MM4-5):
Image

History of Terra before "time of Isles of Terra":

The statue of Water Mane, fabled ruler of the Great Sea, stands in the center of the Maze from Hell. Water Mane was the ruler of the Great Sea in a time when there was no land to break up its depths.

The civilization of Terra lived beneath the waves in a coral city, until one day there was a tremendous storm that seemed to last forever and Water Mane’s kingdom was lost. When the storm finally subsided the Isles of Terra were left floating in the wounded sea. This statue is perhaps the only remnant of that lost civilization. Surviving the perils of the Maze from Hell to stand and drink from the fountain’s bowl is more than a feat of great adventuring, it is a symbolic journey to the forgotten past of Terra, the final rekindling of a spirit that has all but vanished from the heart of a world.



More screens from MM4-5 soon.

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Postby Kareeah Indaga » Dec 27 2006, 19:07

Whoo! Thank you Avonu! :-D


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