MM7 new modding

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 06 Nov 2022, 12:59

Hello folks!

I previously started a topic with a similar name when I was modding MM6. Since then it has unfortunately been discontinued, and I won't continue for a while, sorry. :(
The reason in short is that I couldn't implement my main idea in it, which would have been the best point of the game. I'll write about it in more detail in a moment, and I try to describe it briefly and straightforward.
However, as I wrote it before, my project will not be interrupted, what will happen is that I will transfer my ideas and concepts into MM7 and design a huge modified version. A lot of things will be changed in it, txt/lua/editor etc, so the usual stuff. On top of that, several completely new maps and dungeons are planned (still are), so there will be more to do.
What I think will be the backbone of the new MM7 is the addition of new objects. You don't mean a table, a wall or a roof with no function, but new castles that can be accessed from the inside and outside, suspension bridge systems and the like.
This is where things got stuck with MM6. It's not yet possible to fully exploit the creative stuff :( I'll describe the problem below with a short tutorial, in case others can draw inspiration from it or help with some problems. I should also say that I'm not a great expert, I'm sure there are better solutions for everything, it's also possible that I'm messing something up. Anyway, I tried to research the subject as much as I could before writing this post.
So, the problem and the Blender tutorial is below (anyone not interested in 3D modeling, feel free to skip this paragraph):

I'm designing new objects in Blender that not only function as "decoration", but can be run around on/into them, like in the case of Ironfist Castle (although it's not such a complex obj). When I place an object in outdoor map in MM6, I have to be very careful to erase the faces that are not visible, otherwise it will blink, glitch. Depending on the angle you look at it, you either see the face opposite or the one behind it, as if the game can't decide when to show which one. There are several solutions to remove the unnecessary geometry, I describe one here, and here's my little comics for it:

Image
- So in BLENDER: Edit -> preferences -> Add-ons tab, find and turn on "object: Boolean Tool"
- 1. You have two objects, a cube and a hollow tube. The colors show the orientation of the faces (normals), blue is the visible/not traversable side of it, red is the invisible, traversable side (so it's like a 2D wall section has only 1 side).
- 2. You want to merge the two bodies, drag them into each other, but the sides stay the same as the inside, MM6 will get pretty stupid from it.
- 3. You select one of the bodies in object mode, add "Boolean modifier" in the "Modifier Properties", then check "Union" and specify in the object which body you want to merge it with. By the way, the guy they named these operations after was called Boolean, probably because he really liked modifying, or I don't know :)
- 4. You still have to delete your original object, and with the new one the internal geometry will disappear nicely, the cube will be traversable/transparent, MM6 is happy
- The only problem is that this is still only half a success, your mischievous object still has a bottom.. This can still glitch from the outside when viewed from certain angles, so MM6 is actually only partially happy, I just lied before XD. A much better solution is to design your object from the start with removing continously the unnecessary wall parts. If you already have, say, 6000 faces, and you have to pay attention to their orientation (red or blue on the left side of that chest, or the top of the column you can only see on the fly anyway), your hair will fall out by the time everything is in place.
- 5. Then there's the problem that if there's no internal geometry, how are you going to run through the corridor to cut that goblin??

The problem is that even if you've made that object, you can't use it by walking around in it. If, for example, you reach a 90° turn in a tunnel (we are still in the outdoor map), the wall behind the turn will glitches through the wall of the corridor that is covering it at that angle.
This is where MM7 and Hardware Accelerated 3D come into play. The support solves this problem, if two (or more) faces slide into each other, you will only see the upper one, from all angles (you have to make sure that if there are 2 on exactly one axis, i.e. on the same coordinate, MM7 doesn't tolerate it that much either).
At this point, I transferred my items/ideas from MM6 to 7 and working on modding it right now. I'm just improving Deyja with bridges and stairs, according to Blender there are at 3106 faces and 7298 edges, and I'm not at the end yet, but I think the end result will be pretty good.
So much for Blender (thanks to Grayface for the guide!).

And the interesting part. I'm mostly done with the starter island and Harmondale renovations, I'll link those below. I plan to transform all maps in roughly the same style and make them more interesting. And after that comes the even bigger work, with completely new locations and cities, each with a separate story and side quests. That's why I say, it won't be ready soon, but my enthusiasm is unbroken. :)

Harmondale has been given a wall to protect the city, and there will be someone to defend it against!
Image

The goblins got a real castle instead of flat little piles of stones, from which they can raid as they please.
Image

Emerald Isle has grown to have almost the same walkable area as the starting island. The theme will be pirate and treasure heist. As a dungeon, there are two new ships on the map, which can be looted, as well as the pirates' treasury cave. The pirates will be quite strong, but it will be possible to sail back to the Emerald Isle at any time, probably from the Tularean Forest.
Image

I welcome ideas and comments about anything. I would also like to add that I still don't know a lot of stuffs and mechanism (especially scripting), I'm probably doing a lot of things wrong, but I'm trying to improve myself.

Tomsod
Scout
Scout
Posts: 196
Joined: 31 Jul 2020

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Tomsod » 07 Nov 2022, 04:36

Very impressive! Don't be shy about asking for advice or help, we have a lot of good programmerfolk here (including me).

Eksekk
Scout
Scout
Posts: 193
Joined: 19 Jul 2016

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Eksekk » 07 Nov 2022, 20:53

Excellent changes! I really like your ship and castle. Also, did I understand correctly that there'll be another starting island map, and emerald isle will be intended for later?

I'll be really glad to help you learn scripting or help directly in more difficult problems.

Also, for beginners in modelling in blender: be extremely careful with boolean modifier. I couldn't get it to work correctly usually, and in one case it even broke my mesh! Had to spend an hour fixing it. Turn on mesh statistics in viewport overlays and make sure that the face/edge/vertex number doesn't suddenly explode. I also suggest to turn on 256 undo steps (maximum) and 32 automatic backups (also maximum), unless you're really short of disk space, as well as make an occasional manual backup ("save copy" option is great for this) at least every time you feel you couldn't take losing your work made since previous backup, preferably on different physical hard/ssd drive if you have two or more (NOT different partition, check online how to distinguish them). You can setup some cloud service to automatically upload your files into cloud for even more increased data security.

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 08 Nov 2022, 00:03

Tomsod wrote: Very impressive! Don't be shy about asking for advice or help, we have a lot of good programmerfolk here (including me).
Thanks Tomsod! I have noticed before as well that there are very helpful people here, which I am very happy about! :-D
Eksekk wrote: Excellent changes! I really like your ship and castle. Also, did I understand correctly that there'll be another starting island map, and emerald isle will be intended for later?

I'll be really glad to help you learn scripting or help directly in more difficult problems.

Also, for beginners in modelling in blender: be extremely careful with boolean modifier. I couldn't get it to work correctly usually, and in one case it even broke my mesh! Had to spend an hour fixing it. Turn on mesh statistics in viewport overlays and make sure that the face/edge/vertex number doesn't suddenly explode. I also suggest to turn on 256 undo steps (maximum) and 32 automatic backups (also maximum), unless you're really short of disk space, as well as make an occasional manual backup ("save copy" option is great for this) at least every time you feel you couldn't take losing your work made since previous backup, preferably on different physical hard/ssd drive if you have two or more (NOT different partition, check online how to distinguish them). You can setup some cloud service to automatically upload your files into cloud for even more increased data security.
I am also glad for all your help! And thanks, I'll post the Deyja project in about two weeks, until then I'll just get it done.
Not quite, it will still be just a starting Emerald Isle, but there's too much unused water surface, so I've built that in somewhat. Something like this:

Image

And thanks for the advice! I wouldn't be happy to lose my job either. The Boolean stuffs are a pretty rudimentary solution, and so far they've only worked for the simplest objects. In fact, I had some words with Grayface, and he suggested to look into similar things on the subject, to see if it helps. The real solution is to pay attention like hell, especially in MM6, but also in MM7.

User avatar
DaveHer
Marksman
Marksman
Posts: 446
Joined: 13 Mar 2019

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby DaveHer » 09 Nov 2022, 20:20

I do not know if you know it or not, but there is a relationship between the blender grid and the pixels in MM6,7, and 8. Depending on the zoom in blender, the little squares are 10 pixels across and the big squares, of course, are 100 pixels across. When you zoom in, another grid appears and now the little squares are one pixel. On the first zoom, I count 12 little squares which equals 120 pixels. Then I zoom in and count 8 little squares which equals 8 pixels. This gives me 128 pixels across. This is the bottom of all textures that are 128 X 256. I see that you are using some of my stuff. That is O.K. But you should use the images and things in the "Patch two for MM7Rev4modR1 Redone Final" it has the best images (especially the flowers and plants) and models. At the bottom of the SFT.txt and DecList.txt, you will see the sprites that I added to the MM7Rev4modR1 redone final game. If you want to use these sprites, you will need to add these lines to your files which are in the tables folder. You will also need to get the images from my sprites.lod and place them in your sprites.lod. Don't worry about palettes. The palettes are already there.
David Hernandez

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 09 Nov 2022, 22:38

Yes, I've noticed, but I haven't given it much thought. Thanks for the advice!
I'll have to do a major cleanup of my files, that's in the plan. For now, I'm tied up with the modelling part of it, and I'll be fine for a gooood while!

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 04 Dec 2022, 20:21

I'll put up some more pictures. For Deyja I have finished the addons.

New textures and bridges, from Deyja inn to the small village in the northwest:
Image
Image
Image

New layout of the village, watchtower, stairs:
Image
Image

Next up will be Bracada, the project has already started. I think I've got quite a lot of work going on, it's going to take a while. :)

Eksekk
Scout
Scout
Posts: 193
Joined: 19 Jul 2016

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Eksekk » 05 Dec 2022, 08:53

Woah, that blender object is absolutely incredible! Your mod is gonna be so amazing :)

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 05 Dec 2022, 16:55

Thanks! :)

User avatar
Creation Nacelle
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 2
Joined: 11 Dec 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Creation Nacelle » 11 Dec 2022, 20:39

Splendid stuff.
Now the real question is, do you want professional modeling support?
i would kill to re-make Celeste, and i got plenty of time to spare nowadays.

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 13 Dec 2022, 00:55

Thank you!
You can help if you like. As a basic idea, I'd just add new locations/dungeons to the game, and touch the original dungeons only slightly at most. The truth is that they could use a thorough rethinking though (e.g. stacking a few cubes of obj on top of each other on the William Setag's tower must have taken how many minutes?? But Celeste is no great shakes either.)

Eksekk
Scout
Scout
Posts: 193
Joined: 19 Jul 2016

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Eksekk » 13 Dec 2022, 12:34

Creation Nacelle wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 20:39 Splendid stuff.
Now the real question is, do you want professional modeling support?
i would kill to re-make Celeste, and i got plenty of time to spare nowadays.
May I ask for you to make some general notes and screenshots to help others who are modelling as well? Nothing too complicated, just some pointers on techniques (no tutorials, that would take too much time! Just mention something if it's googleable and I personally will research it). If you don't wish to, no problem either. Good luck remaking Celeste!

User avatar
Creation Nacelle
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 2
Joined: 11 Dec 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Creation Nacelle » 15 Dec 2022, 17:03

Eksekk wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 12:34
Creation Nacelle wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 20:39 Splendid stuff.
Now the real question is, do you want professional modeling support?
i would kill to re-make Celeste, and i got plenty of time to spare nowadays.
May I ask for you to make some general notes and screenshots to help others who are modelling as well? Nothing too complicated, just some pointers on techniques (no tutorials, that would take too much time! Just mention something if it's googleable and I personally will research it). If you don't wish to, no problem either. Good luck remaking Celeste!
No sweat. You can find my ass over at twitter.com/ZloNoNameSov , dms always open

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 18 Dec 2022, 14:52

The new Bracada is slowly taking shape. I've changed the map a bit, made the desert part bigger, added a few new bridges and other bits and pieces. The biggest change is my pyramid:
MM7's biggest problem is the lack of long/large dungeons. I wanted to make a pyramid that was comparable to MM6, and I pretty much succeeded, at least I'm happy with the result.
The external location was inspired by the real-life Kukulcan pyramid in Mexico, and I made a scale (!) replica of it. Unfortunately, I couldn't reproduce what exactly is on the top, because after a little research I found out that you can't take pictures there, because you can't climb up. :) That's my invention. Here it is:

Image

Also a view from the top. You'll be able to use the trapdoor under the sacrifice table to get down to the inner dungeon, which will be a pretty high level place (I'll figure out the details later). By the way, the obelisk is also inside. And the Bracada map, it will look something like this:

Image

The important thing is that I have the inside. A lot of the locations here are inspired by real places too, and a lot I made up. My aim was to make it look like the pyramid of MM6, and to evoke that atmosphere, but with completely different locations.
A bit of bad news: the texturing isn't done yet, I've only produced the 3D model, so I can only show you that. (By the way, I've copied the MM6 textures to it.) The next picture is a top view of the two pyramids, and a side view. I was a bit surprised that my pyramid ended up about 4× smaller. :D It's a bit deceiving anyway, because 1.) there's less unused space and 2.) it's much more detailed (6747 faces in mine, the MM6 pyramid has about half that). I had to simplify it a bit towards the end, because I couldn't fit it in the frame: Error: too many outlines! (And this is the RemoveLimit script by Grayface, so the limit is 7000 outlines.) Anyway, here's the new dungeon of the future mod:

Image

Oh yeah, there will be a small part added as well, the Mortuary temple. But that will come later. I compared it to the biggest dungeons of MM7, so don't despair, because it's not exactly small either: it's absolutely comparable to those, but much more detailed:
MM6 - MM6 pyramid
MM7 - MM7 pyramid
ToE - Tunnels of Eeofol
ThM - Thunderfist Mountains

Image

Finally, here's a short video of the model (forgive me for messing around with OBS, I've only known the prog for about 20 minutes :) )

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KyxbmC ... sp=sharing

Tomsod
Scout
Scout
Posts: 196
Joined: 31 Jul 2020

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Tomsod » 19 Dec 2022, 02:17

This is awesome and your speed is enviable. (All this in just a month!) MM7 modeling is really on the rise these days! Hopefully it's only a matter of time before somebody adds Vori (fingers crossed).

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 19 Dec 2022, 13:16

Actually, it was more time, I had already done the outer pyramid before. Just the inside took about 3-4 weeks, so I was doing 4-8 hours at night almost every day. But it was fun though. :D
Vori I've thought about it too. To be more precise I have ideas for 4-5 different themed new maps, one of them could even be that.

Eksekk
Scout
Scout
Posts: 193
Joined: 19 Jul 2016

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Eksekk » 19 Dec 2022, 23:19

Holy cow, your mod is gonna be incredible (sorry for repeating myself, can't help it)!!! Modelling on this scale is very difficult, and I'm glad you manage. Kinda envious, also, because my dungeon has been in the works for several months already and I still don't feel like actually finishing it, I'm adding small stuff and doing other things in meantime. But it will be done sooner or later.
Tomsod wrote:Hopefully it's only a matter of time before somebody adds Vori (fingers crossed).
Tbh, I think we (community) only lack 2d artist and possibly sound engineer (doesn't have to be very experienced, it's just maybe two new tracks and some monster sounds). Also would love to see Vori, if somebody starts modding group for it I'd love to join! Can offer programming and basic modelling support.

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 20 Dec 2022, 09:40

Thank you, these comments are always a boost. :) I try anyway, this part of the modding is going relatively well, even scripting will take a lot of time. Go for it with yours too!

I'm going to split my mod work into two parts: there will be a sort of milestone, upgrading existing maps, including pyramid dungeon, new obj-s and etc : part1.
Part2: the completely new maps, quests and dungeons. One could be Vori. I already have an idea for it, but it would really help if there were new monsters for it (not sure I'll be able to do that on my own).

The point of all this is that if anything happens (I get discouraged from modding, run out of motivation... I don't know... don't have time for it, or a meteor suddenly hits), there will still be a playable part (part1) and the whole project won't disappear in the fog.

Tomsod
Scout
Scout
Posts: 196
Joined: 31 Jul 2020

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Tomsod » 20 Dec 2022, 14:35

I thought about possible Vori monsters recently. A cheap way would be to take some MM8 monsters and recolor them: dire wolves could become winter wolves, and crystal guardians, ice golems. Together with the obligatory elven guardians that's enough for the outdoors, at least. Or you could try to contact Maestro! He still visits this forum occasionally, besides I've talked to him this month and the mad lad apparently redrew every single MM7 monster (including separate graphics for the three sub-species each monster kind had), so a few new ones should be pretty easy for him. Assuming this will pique his interest, but I mean who doesn't want Vori! The closest thing we currently have is that door in BDJ/Maestro's mod, and that's clearly not enough.

Kaltenberg
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 Aug 2022

Re: MM7 new modding

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 21 Dec 2022, 16:13

Okay, it's settled then, I'm going to take on Vori. :) When I get there, I'll ask Maestro about it, but it's not due yet. I've got a lot of things want to finish before then, and I'm moving at the typical "two forwards and then one back" progress because of the many new and new misfortunes and crashes. XD
By the way, your Vori's monster solution is a super great idea!


Return to “Might and Magic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 24 guests