The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Echo
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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Echo » Jul 6 2021, 19:06

Yeeeah, I miss those gigantic dungeons in the 7 and especially 8. When you were going into the dungeon in MM6, you were in for a proper crawl! In 8, it's usually a very much an in-and-out, 10 minute adventure. Despite 6 being my favorite installment, I absolutely remember 6's dungeons the best. They were much more memorable to me. Got me lost, got me beat. The atmosphere had time to sink it ;)



I've ran through DWI with my mod here to see how the balance was in the level where u haven't many choices, and I absolutely must recommend that "once in the dungeon, can't go out until cleared" rule for MM8 together with the modified mapstats.txt. I didn't change the Temple at all, but with that one rule and the increased spawns from the table, it was actually an engaging dungeon that reminded me of MM6 :D I had to use all the ingredients, a bunch of potions, I even checked what scrolls I had. If I had a wand, I'd have used it. I never use wands in these games, never necessary. But if you can't leave the dungeon, AND it's hard due to the mass of enemies, you gotta dig into the resources. I liked it very much.

Eksekk
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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Eksekk » Jul 7 2021, 13:10

Well, my impressions on playing the mod up to 14 level - it is good. Hard, but not too hard if you focus all possible buffs. I honestly like having not enough money in M&Ms, not sure why, and pricier spellbooks accomplish that.

Oh, also small tip: when you place gold item on the ground, it has by default value of 0. I don't know how to randomize it, but you can give it specific value by adjusting its Bonus2 field. It is a little strange to see energy dragon guarding piles of 0 gold :D

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Echo » Jul 7 2021, 15:14

Eksekk wrote:Well, my impressions on playing the mod up to 14 level - it is good. Hard, but not too hard if you focus all possible buffs. I honestly like having not enough money in M&Ms, not sure why, and pricier spellbooks accomplish that.

Oh, also small tip: when you place gold item on the ground, it has by default value of 0. I don't know how to randomize it, but you can give it specific value by adjusting its Bonus2 field. It is a little strange to see energy dragon guarding piles of 0 gold :D
Do you get the right prices now though? :-D It makes a lot more sense if you use the file on the mmmerge.t.lod :yes:

Glad you're enjoying the early game there. And yeah, I also disliked swimming in gold, with the exorbitant prices Merchant skill actually has some value.

Lol the gold! I remember the same thing happened to me last time. I learned nothing I guess :disagree: But you know... maybe it's the famous fool's gold. That's all :tongue:
(no idea how u randomize it either, would fix it otherwise)
Last edited by Echo on Jul 7 2021, 15:15, edited 2 times in total.

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...russification some videos...

Unread postby CATMAN » Jul 9 2021, 12:15

Last edited by CATMAN on Jul 9 2021, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Echo » Jul 17 2021, 14:55

So, with me out of time to poke around M&M for a while, I'm dropping by to deliver my buddy's test-drive report for this "mod":

He played with my modified mapstats and items files increasing the spawns across all 3 games, and he had the MM7 Refilled mod active as well. He played through most of the MM8 content (cleared all basic quests/locations and Regna), and he got to the Pit in MM7.

He agreed to test with the rules of no buying anything but spells at the stores, and not leaving a dungeon he entered (no TP/Lloyd's Beacon out) until it's 100% cleared. I wanted to know how the loot distribution is vs. the new encounters.

His results:

- He didn't leave Jadame until level 35 - around that time he said that the difficulty dropped HARD and he didn't care to test the difficulty here anymore cause it didn't exist :P Bah.

- Early and early-midgame were challenging and loot felt good due to the no-store item starvation. He didn't grab any of the free artifact "easter eggs" and judged the curve as stable - failed to find any strong items early on and always found upgrades in new dungeons. Good!

- In MM8 he enountered just two hostility issues - one being (as I found out earlier) the ratmen and poison dudes in Arrion cave never go friendly, and the other being some mercenaries in Dragonhunters keep being hostile. Just the "Mercenary" monster type.

- Apparently I triggered his OCD a few times, because some items are out of map bounds and he couldn't pick them up, writing me angry messages instead xP Nothing huge though, some ingredient in IWD and I think also troll blood in Shadowspire

- There is a cursed hallway in the Arrion caves in Ravenshore where FPS drops by a ton if you stand in it/run through it/look at it. But it's short, it doesn't cause crashes, and he didn't encounter any more of those. Why it happened, no idea

- Visiting MM6 to buy spells (he didn't have the patience to hunt some of them in Jadame), he didn't encounter anything weird. And the monster number increases there were unnoticeable. Understandable, going from 4-5 to 5-6 is nothing compared to going from 1-3 to 4-7.

- The MM7 problems were bigger than anticipated though, due to the hostility changes. He said that together with MM7 Refilled, MM7 part becomes "chaos mode" and if you want to suffer, just turn on Bolstering, get Refilled, and all of the files here, and go to Antagrich. You shall suffer xD

a) The amounts of monsters are silly - the mapstats + refilled hand placed ones make for an absolute monster soup. Friend said he loved it. I'm not convinced. Though I guess he does like to suffer in games so who knows...

b) Bracada has hostile golems and you will be assaulted upon arrival, run, Forrest, run!

c) Catherine's castle is filled with angry swordsmen, guess if you wanna side with elves now you have a better reason xD They all want your booty, same with Markham guards

d) The Pit is deadly - he chose to go on the evil side, but everyone in the Pit is hostile regardless due to the hostility.txt and there's a lot more of them there. Idk if MM7 Refilled added more monsters there or not, I just heard "deadly chaos!"

- He didn't encounter any broken quests, as anticipated so that's neat. Game really doesn't care if you kill the creatures as long as you don't trigger any trespassing events.

TL;DR
Late game still too easy, MM8 challenging if you employ stupid rules on top of the modifications (so just mildly so without any rules), MM7 chaos arena where everyone hates you and you get turbo-mobbed.

Final verdict:
If you don't like chaos, pretend MM7 doesn't exist, MM8/MM6 are fine.
If you do like chaos, include all Convergence files and start in MM7 with MM7 Refilled mod on top and suffer in bliss.

Right, I hope one day I'll have the time and presence of mind to come back to this and sort out the hostility issues. Meanwhile, that's where the mod stands so anyone interested can know what they're getting :tongue:

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Eksekk » Sep 21 2021, 17:48

Just wanna let you know that I learned enough to be able to help you sort out the hostility issues, so if you'll ever want to revisit the mod, I can help! :-D

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby NotABroom » Sep 22 2021, 17:13

Oh my god, I think I just found out what I'm going to be doing next weekend. This looks glorious!

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Echo » Oct 5 2021, 0:43

Eksekk wrote: Sep 21 2021, 17:48 Just wanna let you know that I learned enough to be able to help you sort out the hostility issues, so if you'll ever want to revisit the mod, I can help! :-D
Hey, that's really cool! I'm glad the issue's figured out for everyone's sake! And hopefully some future mods other folks make :-D

Sadly I'm completely out of time :( But if anyone likes this addon here and would like to fix the angry monsters, please do, I give full permissions, you can modify them, host them elsewhere, all good.

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby lightbringer23 » Mar 23 2022, 18:52

Echo wrote: Jul 17 2021, 14:55 So, with me out of time to poke around M&M for a while, I'm dropping by to deliver my buddy's test-drive report for this "mod":

- The MM7 problems were bigger than anticipated though, due to the hostility changes. He said that together with MM7 Refilled, MM7 part becomes "chaos mode" and if you want to suffer, just turn on Bolstering, get Refilled, and all of the files here, and go to Antagrich. You shall suffer xD

a) The amounts of monsters are silly - the mapstats + refilled hand placed ones make for an absolute monster soup. Friend said he loved it. I'm not convinced. Though I guess he does like to suffer in games so who knows...

d) The Pit is deadly - he chose to go on the evil side, but everyone in the Pit is hostile regardless due to the hostility.txt and there's a lot more of them there. Idk if MM7 Refilled added more monsters there or not, I just heard "deadly chaos!"
What a test drive! I'm the author of MM7 Refilled. I can only imagine the chaos of hostility.txt plus extra spawns plus my Refill.

I did not add anything to the Pit, as when I go there first, I'm usually running around invisible. No need for more clutter. I added nothing to the Barrows, the Haunted Manor, the Pit, Celestia, the Breeding Zone, the Mirrors of Mist, Mount Nighon dungeon, the Nighon Tunnels, the Kreegan Lair (MM7's Hive), and the Lincoln. They all were either faction heavy (Nighon Tunnels), were already full of high level monsters in small spaces, or were just plain crowed, as is with the Barrows and the Haunted Manor. I had a lighter touch on the high level dungeons -- save for a few placed artifacts, and The Maze.

I designed the Refill to live alongside the normal vanilla spawns (and also to be played after a full MM8 run), so I definitely can't speak to how well it plays with a doubling of the vanilla spawn rate.

That said, I'm about to find out! I'm finally taking a slew of Merge mods for a drive. I have the music from Might and Magic S&M (can't recommend highly enough), my MM7 Refilled, the dungeons from your Merge Convergence, and the exteriors from the Modling. Bolstering will be in place. I can't wait to see the Convergence's changes to all the MM8 dungeons!

I'm also using your Mapstats.txt with its increased spawn rate, but with the respawn rate at 6 months for nearly all maps. I'm going to try it all without your hostility.txt, but with my script from MM7 Refilled. I suspect friendly factioned monsters from MM7 in any MM8 dungeons will be friendly, but that will change as soon as I hit one. Once they go hostile, my script should kick in and make them all ally against me -- even if I have to zone in and out to trigger it. Otherwise, all the friendly monsters in MM7 should stay so, in their places. If that's the case, I suspect the tradeoff will be worth it.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how it all stacks up in MM7. I play a more high-powered game, so I imagine the monster soup will be more manageable. I take full advantage of the "free" artifacts in MM8, and consider them to be an essential part of gearing up for challenges ahead. I mod my artifacts to be super-powered, like BDJ did in his legendary MM7Rev4 mod. 4 Noblebone Bows plus Percival tips the power curve quite nicely :D

I actually rather enjoyed some of the randomness in the Modling, but I adore the vampire bats in Shadowspire and the cyclones in Murmurwood. They look so great! I'm really looking forward to seeing your changes to the dungeons!

Oh yeah! Your changes to Escaton's Palace in the Modling are one of the most hardcore things I've experienced in a Might and Magic game. I'd never been mobbed so much by the most powerful foes in a game. I actually resorted to the old MM6 Ring of Fire trick, but with Spirit Lash. Naturally, I included your Modling's version of Escaton alongside the Convergence dungeons. That will be my bar for "monster soup." :D

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Echo » Apr 21 2022, 22:44

lightbringer23 wrote: Mar 23 2022, 18:52
Oh yeah! Your changes to Escaton's Palace in the Modling are one of the most hardcore things I've experienced in a Might and Magic game. I'd never been mobbed so much by the most powerful foes in a game. I actually resorted to the old MM6 Ring of Fire trick, but with Spirit Lash. Naturally, I included your Modling's version of Escaton alongside the Convergence dungeons. That will be my bar for "monster soup." :D
Escaton's Palace of course has its own new reimagining in the Convergence version ;) I have no idea whether it's easier or harder than the original Modling, could be either! :hoo:

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby lightbringer23 » Apr 23 2022, 3:46

Echo wrote: Apr 21 2022, 22:44 Escaton's Palace of course has its own new reimagining in the Convergence version ;) I have no idea whether it's easier or harder than the original Modling, could be either! :hoo:
Oh, the Modling's is definitely harder. Several of the rooms are completely jam packed with the Astral Behemoth types -- or whatever they are.

I kept the Convergence versions of all the other dungeons. They've been neat and fun additions, and mostly in-keeping with the vanilla MM8 feel. Very cool seeing the MM6&7 monsters show up. The biggest change so far was in the Uplifted Library. So much more epic! I loved the feel of it.

I'm currently standing in front of The Mad Necromancer's Lab. We'll see how this one shakes out!

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby uhm » Apr 24 2022, 20:11

Hey Echo, I just wanted to say many thanks for your mod :D In the past I've played M&M8 4 or 5 times and after all these years the experience became flat. Currently I've started convergence with solo Troll and with no turn based mode nor early secret chests with artifacts and now it's real fun :) (to say nothing of that I am playing solo game and real-time game for the first time :-D )

It's harder, it requires a lot of loading, so it reminds me of first completion of the game. I reaaly like the changes to the Dagger Wound Island (I would add even more mages and crossbowmen, but that's me :tongue: ) and temple, it's the second time I had to left the part with snakemen for the second clearing ;) . Cleared Ravenshore from wolves and centaurs, i also had a lot of fun running all around Alvar running from dwarves, but eventually they were no match. It would be interesting idea to let them shoot, but on the other hand that might too brutal for the party of mollies that barely can hold their swords and came just to talk with merchants of ALvar, not to fight :D . Right now finished Troll's Tomb, without regeneration it would be violent too :P Currently going to have a little talk with Wasps Queen.

Very longed-for mod indeed :) Making me think, how would it look like if NWC had more time... With more dungeons, lands and monsters :D

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby Echo » Apr 30 2022, 20:28

uhm wrote: Apr 24 2022, 20:11 Hey Echo, I just wanted to say many thanks for your mod :D In the past I've played M&M8 4 or 5 times and after all these years the experience became flat. Currently I've started convergence with solo Troll and with no turn based mode nor early secret chests with artifacts and now it's real fun :) (to say nothing of that I am playing solo game and real-time game for the first time :-D )

It's harder, it requires a lot of loading, so it reminds me of first completion of the game. I reaaly like the changes to the Dagger Wound Island (I would add even more mages and crossbowmen, but that's me :tongue: ) and temple, it's the second time I had to left the part with snakemen for the second clearing ;) . Cleared Ravenshore from wolves and centaurs, i also had a lot of fun running all around Alvar running from dwarves, but eventually they were no match. It would be interesting idea to let them shoot, but on the other hand that might too brutal for the party of mollies that barely can hold their swords and came just to talk with merchants of ALvar, not to fight :D . Right now finished Troll's Tomb, without regeneration it would be violent too :P Currently going to have a little talk with Wasps Queen.

Very longed-for mod indeed :) Making me think, how would it look like if NWC had more time... With more dungeons, lands and monsters :D
Hah, glad you liked the mod. And yeah, more monsters might've been better, but I don't know the limitations of the engine and didn't want things to straight up explode :embarrased:

Hope you'll have fun with the later parts of the mod as well! Cheers :)

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Re: The Merge Convergence (for the MM8 section)

Unread postby lightbringer23 » May 21 2022, 4:42

All right! I completed the MM8 portion of my run. As reported above, I used the Modling for outdoor maps, and the Merge Convergence for indoor maps.

I also acquired GM Learning very early -- probably 90% of my time in MM8 was with GM Learning. I also traveled with an Instructor and a Scholar, so my total bonus to monster xp was +69%. I used the modified mapstats.txt with the increased spawn numbers, thus maximizing the effect of the Learning skill.

I had an absolute blast. I ended MM8 at level 149. That is WAY higher than vanilla leveling. I am now in great shape to begin the MM7 section -- which will be with my MM7 Refilled for the Merge mod. Very enjoyable so far.

A note on hostility: I did not use the modified hostility.txt. Instead, I used the script I packaged in my MM7 Refilled mod. In a very few cases I had to shoot a monster once to turn the whole group hostile. That was required maybe 2-3 times in all of the many MM8 dungeons -- otherwise all of the MM7 and MM6 monsters were angry from the start. I call that a success.


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