Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.1 is out!

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Tomsod
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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jun 28 2021, 17:31

Eksekk wrote:No, please don't penalize xp/skill point gains, it will make it much harder to achieve relevant masteries.
Yeah, I thought about the difficulty slider some more, and the third effect I was missing is a penalty to non-combat skills, like in classical Fallouts. If I also exclude Merchant, it will by definition cover all aspects of the game besides combat and money, which is what I want.
Eksekk wrote: And like you said, it should be optional, so someone wanting to play doesn't hit the wall and stop playing. Maybe allow difficulty to be switchable ingame until you leave Emerald Island?
Actually, I've decided it will be switchable anytime (possibly except in the middle of combat). The settings screen has this "turn rate" switch that hardly anyone ever uses because anything but "smooth" is too fast on modern PCs, so I can seamlessly replace it with a "normal/hard/very hard" difficulty chooser. The ability to change it midgame imposes some restrictions on what a difficulty level can affect, however. See next paragraph:
Eksekk wrote:In my opinion, boosting monster stats (possibly spawn rate of monsters to make group nukes like meteor shower/fireball/rock blast more useful, but don't overdo it, because then incinerate and more single-target damaging spells will be useless; ideally, some monsters should have spawn rate increased and there also should be (mini)bosses where you can utilize all debuffs and single-target damaging spells) and increasing buy prices should be enough.
I am definitely not going to increase monster spawns. One, it's not easily reversible, and as I mentioned above, I want reversible changes. Two, more monsters means more loot, which would make gold penalty meaningless. Three, despite what you propose, AOE spells do not need a buff! They're already very useful and very powerful, at least in my experience. I actually spend most of my mana on these.

What I ended up on: at higher difficulty levels, monsters will act more quickly (lowered recovery) and receive less damage. These two changes are functionally equivalent to increasing attack (including spells) damage and HP, but are perfectly reversible and don't affect visible stats, making switching difficulty more smooth.
Eksekk wrote:And in my opinion you should be somewhat rewarded for playing on a higher difficulty mode, so maybe a little more XP for killing enemies like numerous mods have done? Not enough to completely trivialize the game, but enough to feel a difference in power?
Good idea! As long as the bonus is modest enough, it makes sense. I know I myself find it hard to rationalize playing at higher difficulties unless there's some advantage to it. I will also have to remove Learning from penalized skills to avoid contradicting myself, but that's fine.
Eksekk wrote:Also, armageddon should be nerfed, it's the one spell that is OP because you can kill anything on the map from safety of your hideout. But please don't go the way of bumping magic resistance of every monster outside, it's better to just disable the spell entirely or make it so ridiculously expensive that you'll be able to afford it only with GM merchant and selling literally everything you find. Another option is backporting MM8's Dark Grasp instead of armageddon, but it depends on your willingness, it would still be powerful by wrecking bosses, but not powerful in a "you'll empty all maps in half an hour" sort of way.
Actually, I sort of addressed this spell already. In classic MM7 and MM8 Armageddon suffered from a bug that made its damage irresistible, even by monsters resistant or immune to Dark. I fixed this in v1.0, and also changed the spell's element to Magic as part of the elemental system redesign, and since an average monster in my mod is more resistant to Magic than ditto in vanilla to Dark, Armageddon is not quite as effective as it used to be, or even as it could be. And in v2.0, it's penalized further by imposing a massive reputation penalty whenever you cast it (which is also sort of a vanilla bug fix). Positive reputation is very hard to accumulate, so to me at least it's an effective deterrent. The only area where reputation doesn't exist is Eeofol, and since dragons and titans are fairly resistant to magic, it doesn't do much good there anyway.
Eksekk wrote:Well, the only difference that you said is a veeeery important one, as Protection from Magic is possibly one of best spells ingame, and having no way to block the mana-drain is a problem. Of course, there's alchemy, but normal blue potions are too weak (unless you grind alchemy to 15+, but then you'll have no magic skills, and find clanker's amulet and savescum +25 alchemy item from dragons), and white divine power requires too many reagents to be easily solvable. Maybe add another type of shop where you will be able to mass-buy low-level reagents, of course for boosted price? It would make alchemy a viable counter to this problem.
Really no idea how can people ever run out of reagents; if you clear most outdoor maps, you should have enough to last for the entire game. And besides, shops to mass-buy reagents already exist, they're called "alchemy shops in the three Town Portal cities which restock every time you visit a training hall". In fact, all alchemy shops restock exceptionally quickly.
Eksekk wrote:Still, I can't force you to nerf the mana-drain, but it is annoying having to constantly reload and/or lloyd back to church (I'm mainly considering the final devil room in colony zod there, as advanced form of wights mana-drain is manageable because you don't encounter them in bulk). And yes, you can use weapons, but spellcasters have very low hp and will die easily in hand-to-hand combat, so it's not a complete remedy.
Actually, I see the problem here. The thing is, some special attacks are just unfairly hard to protect against in vanilla MM6-8, and mana drain is one of them. Basically, some attacks are affected by elemental resistances, and some, by primary stats, and the latter ones are much, much harder to avoid due to how primary stats are handled. I've amended this in v1.0, and now the odds (NB: odds, not chance) of resisting such attacks are increased fourfold. I believe if you play my mod, you may find that SP drain is no longer as annoying as in vanilla.

If not, try collecting harpy feathers in Deyja. You can get a +15 or so alchemy item fairly easily, +12 more can be obtained from hiring companions, so a 30 effective skill is easy to get, which equals 50 mana per feather, which is enough for the midgame wraiths and vampires. And for the endgame devil fight, use the elven toadstools. It's just one area after all!

Alternatively, there are Soul Stealing weapons in v2.0, which could be the perfect counter for the lack-of-SP problem: if you can cast, you cast; if you can't, you stab someone and (hopefully) recover mana. Although, admittedly, they're very rare.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jun 28 2021, 19:50

Maybe you are right and mana drain isn't that annoying anymore. We'll see.

Well, the time has come for me to start spewing ideas for your mod. If you don't wanna me to, just write and I will stop doing that :tongue:
  • wands of spectral weapon/fire aura. They (especially spectral weapon) would be a lifesaver for pure melee parties (because some people will do that, while I myself always need to have access to GM elemental and self spells), so I think it is a great idea.
  • buffing vampiric weapon? I think it has nonexistent use in M&M7/8, and even more in your mod where there is spectral enchantment. My ideas for buff include:
    • enchantment will be of Darkness instead of Vampiric on GM.
    • enchantment will be soul stealing instead of vampiric. Let's not kid ourselves, having vampiric weapon won't mean that dark party will go full melee from now on. Having soul stealing as an option would even somewhat balance my concern with mana drain.
    • (maybe a little too overpowered) new enchantment "of Draining" combines vampiric and soul stealing properties.
    If you think that's a bit too strong, maybe balance it with an annoyance factor by having this spell enchant weapon only temporarily and not stacking with any other enchantment.
  • Mass enchant weapon. What I mean by this is, you press ctrl while clicking the spectral/vampiric/fire aura spell and bam, it enchants every melee/every weapon which party is currently holding, draining an appropriate amount of mana and imposing appropriate recovery penalty. This would be a lifesaver QOL feature, and if you don't wanna do it, below is a toned down version.
  • Lower recovery times of buff spells. No one likes waiting, especially when you will need to cast every buff spell possible to cope with higher game difficulty. That would also be a lifesaver QOL feature. It is implemented in Echo's MM8 modling and MM7 Reimagined and I love it.
  • Buffing regeneration slightly? As it is now, I don't even bother to cast it in MM8, and probably your mod will be the same. This would also be good for greater effects of GM spells. 2/5/10? 3/8/15? 4/12/20? Choice is yours (or not to buff it at all).
  • Nerfing invisibility? This spell is probably too good to be in current form, while it allows to have a little bit of stealth game, going into titan's fortress after getting master air and stealing all their loot feels just overpowered. Someone else iirc made the change that Master has 1m/skill duration and GM has 10m/skill and I think it might be worth considering. Or make opening chests dispel invisibility. That will still allow some uses of the spell while making sure that loot stealing is nerfed, and logic is preserved (oh look, this chest is opening on its own! totally not suspicious! :tongue: )
  • Buff hour of power haste duration? I think that main purpose of this spell was casting multiple buffs simultaneously, but its secondary purpose would be longer haste duration. After all, that would be a strange bug to have longer lasting spell than it should. If not, at least make M/GM cure weakness cure all party members at once (this might be implemented already in your mod, sorry if it is, I don't want to read everything rn to make sure)
Last edited by Eksekk on Jun 28 2021, 20:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jun 28 2021, 22:37

Thank you for the ideas, they're always welcome! I can't promise to agree with everything, though.
Eksekk wrote:wands of spectral weapon/fire aura. They (especially spectral weapon) would be a lifesaver for pure melee parties (because some people will do that, while I myself always need to have access to GM elemental and self spells), so I think it is a great idea.
That's not what wands are for. They're weapons, and especially in my mod, they're missile weapons. Wand of fire aura would be like a hot dog gun. However, there are already potions that add numerous enchantments to weapons. There is no "spectral potion", though, but holy water at least works on ghosts. The only downside of those potions is that they're single-use and that only sorcerers and druids can currently brew them, but at least the latter point is going to change in v3.0. In fact, one of my goals is to make almost any party combination viable, including pure melee.
Eksekk wrote:buffing vampiric weapon? I think it has nonexistent use in M&M7/8, and even more in your mod where there is spectral enchantment. My ideas for buff include:
  • enchantment will be of Darkness instead of Vampiric on GM.
  • enchantment will be soul stealing instead of vampiric. Let's not kid ourselves, having vampiric weapon won't mean that dark party will go full melee from now on. Having soul stealing as an option would even somewhat balance my concern with mana drain.
  • (maybe a little too overpowered) new enchantment "of Draining" combines vampiric and soul stealing properties.
If you think that's a bit too strong, maybe balance it with an annoyance factor by having this spell enchant weapon only temporarily and not stacking with any other enchantment.
Vampiric Weapon has great potential if you have a Knight in your party and can cast Shared Life. Because a buffed Knight can hit for up to 200 damage 5 times per round, dual-wielded vampiric weapons can heal them for as much as 400 HP per round. Because of the v2.0 "overheal" feature, they can accumulate a massive HP pool, which can be used to heal your entire party on demand via Shared Life. Another scenario: melee-heavy party, no good cleric, but someone (e.g. an Archer) can still learn basic Dark. Then, vampiric weapons can be used as an efficient healing substitute. In fact, even if you do have a cleric, not having to spend turns healing everyone is very useful. The reason Vampiric Weapon sucked in vanilla was because by the time you got it, you already had better-enchanted weapons or even artifacts on the entire party. Now that both are enchantable, I think it can really shine. Also, Spectral is good but not that good. For most monsters, it's maybe +20% damage on average? Nice, but staying alive is much better.
Eksekk wrote:Mass enchant weapon. What I mean by this is, you press ctrl while clicking the spectral/vampiric/fire aura spell and bam, it enchants every melee/every weapon which party is currently holding, draining an appropriate amount of mana and imposing appropriate recovery penalty. This would be a lifesaver QOL feature, and if you don't wanna do it, below is a toned down version.
Now this is interesting! I need to think on this one, but maybe adding a mass cast as one of the mastery effects (without extra cost, even) is a good idea for Spectral and Vampiric spells, who are currently a bit bland at Expert and Master. (Fire Aura, however, is already distinct enough.) The only problem is interface. Ctrl-clicking seems off to me, no other spell does that now. Perhaps choosing a weapon in the backpack will enchant only it, while clicking on a character doll triggers a mass cast? Also, the other "empty" mastery level could be filled with upgrading Vampiric and Spectral to Darkness and Wraith respectively, like you suggested above, but it's probably OP after all.
Eksekk wrote:Lower recovery times of buff spells. No one likes waiting, especially when you will need to cast every buff spell possible to cope with higher game difficulty. That would also be a lifesaver QOL feature. It is implemented in Echo's MM8 modling and MM7 Reimagined and I love it.
There's always the double speed key, no? Besides, I think non-combat spells should have slow recovery to disincentivize casting them in combat, so NWC did it correctly here. I'm down with QoL improvements, but this one feels more like cheating to me.
Eksekk wrote:Buffing regeneration slightly? As it is now, I don't even bother to cast it in MM8, and probably your mod will be the same. This would also be good for greater effects of GM spells. 2/5/10? 3/8/15? 4/12/20? Choice is yours (or not to buff it at all).
In my playtest, Regeneration was still reasonably useful, saving my druid (no cleric in party) a lot of mana, especially early on. I nerfed it because in vanilla MM7 it made you basically unkillable. If you were used to it, it can feel lackluster now, but I'm adamant the MM8 numbers are the right ones.
Eksekk wrote:Nerfing invisibility? This spell is probably too good to be in current form, while it allows to have a little bit of stealth game, going into titan's fortress after getting master air and stealing all their loot feels just overpowered. Someone else iirc made the change that Master has 1m/skill duration and GM has 10m/skill and I think it might be worth considering. Or make opening chests dispel invisibility. That will still allow some uses of the spell while making sure that loot stealing is nerfed, and logic is preserved (oh look, this chest is opening on its own! totally not suspicious!
It's kinda OP, yes, but 7 minutes on Master is perhaps a bit too harsh! The chests idea is, however, very good. In fact, the game already "catches" you when you open chests in castles, you just don't become visible which may in fact be an oversight.
Eksekk wrote:Buff hour of power haste duration? I think that main purpose of this spell was casting multiple buffs simultaneously, but its secondary purpose would be longer haste duration. After all, that would be a strange bug to have longer lasting spell than it should. If not, at least make M/GM cure weakness cure all party members at once (this might be implemented already in your mod, sorry if it is, I don't want to read everything rn to make sure)
Yes, Cure Weakness and Remove Fear are party-wide on GM. As for the HoP duration -- trust me, it was completely broken. If I were to fix it according to the original intent, however, it would become a "Day of Power" at GM, as it would last for several days. Since that didn't seem right, I made the decision to remove the duration multiplier. I think Haste being short-timed is the integral feature of the spell, actually. If you really want it to last longer, use Haste potions instead.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jun 29 2021, 10:10

Tomsod wrote:That's not what wands are for. They're weapons, and especially in my mod, they're missile weapons. Wand of fire aura would be like a hot dog gun.
Sad to hear that. Wands enchanting items make perfect sense for me. I hope you'll make some way for pure melee parties to get weapon enchantments, because buffs are very important and they won't be able to cast anything.
Tomsod wrote:buffed Knight can hit for up to 200 damage 5 times per round
Honestly I can't believe that. Yes, they can hit 5 times per round because getting recovery to 30 isn't that hard, but for 200? I think at most 100 (dual wielding swords at 7 and putting most points into armsmaster). Remember also that you get GM armsmaster in Eofol, which is almost at the end of the game (that's a mistake in my opinion, same as putting warlock promotion quest there). And you have to be very lucky (or savescum) to get good +armsmaster item. And I don't even consider abusing the Eofol wishing well, because it's a gamebreaking bug.
Tomsod wrote:Perhaps choosing a weapon in the backpack will enchant only it, while clicking on a character doll triggers a mass cast?
I can agree with that, though enchanting only bows might be a little too hard (their sprite is extremely thin and players will probably accidentally mass cast).
Tomsod wrote:There's always the double speed key, no? Besides, I think non-combat spells should have slow recovery to disincentivize casting them in combat, so NWC did it correctly here. I'm down with QoL improvements, but this one feels more like cheating to me.
Sad to hear that. I don't think it's cheating at all. Though if you implement mass cast for single casting spells (regeneration, fire aura etc.) (with appropriate recovery and mana penalty) I will be grateful.
Tomsod wrote:If you really want it to last longer, use Haste potions instead.
Yes, though if you will be using layered or worse white potions for every party member for every encounter, you'll quickly run out of reagents. Maybe make it so (illogical, I know) if you have master alchemy or higher drinking haste potion gives effect for every party member?

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jun 29 2021, 12:57

Eksekk wrote: Sad to hear that. Wands enchanting items make perfect sense for me. I hope you'll make some way for pure melee parties to get weapon enchantments, because buffs are very important and they won't be able to cast anything.
I'm definitely making alchemy more accessible in v3.0. Thieves will at least be able to brew white potions, including the weapon-enchanting ones, and I'm considering giving some level of alchemy to Knights to make them more useful. Also, I intend to make layered/white/potions potentially brewable even if you don't have the required mastery, but with a significant chance of an explosion. (In fact, this was supposed to be in v2.0, but for some reason I deferred it.) Finally, in v4.0 magic guilds will probably begin to sell scrolls, which could provide another source of buffs.
Eksekk wrote: Honestly I can't believe that. Yes, they can hit 5 times per round because getting recovery to 30 isn't that hard, but for 200? I think at most 100 (dual wielding swords at 7 and putting most points into armsmaster). Remember also that you get GM armsmaster in Eofol, which is almost at the end of the game (that's a mistake in my opinion, same as putting warlock promotion quest there). And you have to be very lucky (or savescum) to get good +armsmaster item. And I don't even consider abusing the Eofol wishing well, because it's a gamebreaking bug.
Well okay, 200 damage is for a fully buffed endgame Light Path party. In my last game (dark, no cleric, and few visits to training halls), I only got ~170. The key is to dual-wield Charele and Wallace and stack as much other Armsmaster bonuses as possible. (Getting a +10 or so item is not THAT hard.) As for Eeofol, I usually get there as soon as I can obtain a couple of invisibility scrolls, but upon reflection, for other players it could indeed be different. (BTW, the well there is (hopefully) no longer abusable in v2.0.) But even if you can't get higher than 150 damage, my point still stands.

Eksekk wrote: Sad to hear that. I don't think it's cheating at all. Though if you implement mass cast for single casting spells (regeneration, fire aura etc.) (with appropriate recovery and mana penalty) I will be grateful.
Huh. I haven't considered that mass casting mode would also make sense for other spells! You know, if I make it a general feature not limited to two particular spells, I actually can stand the Ctrl-click interface. This might work after all! Also, I can think of some other uses of this "alternative casting mode". Thank you for the idea.
Eksekk wrote: Yes, though if you will be using layered or worse white potions for every party member for every encounter, you'll quickly run out of reagents. Maybe make it so (illogical, I know) if you have master alchemy or higher drinking haste potion gives effect for every party member?
Haste is only two red and one yellow. And the game basically showers you with red potions and reagents. Yellow are more rare, but less immediately useful, so Haste is not that hard to make in excess. But really, just recasting the spell from time to time is not that difficult either. In fact, somewhere on my to-do/ideas list is making buff icons blink when they're about to expire, which would make it even easier.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jun 29 2021, 13:42

Tomsod wrote:I'm definitely making alchemy more accessible in v3.0. Thieves will at least be able to brew white potions, including the weapon-enchanting ones, and I'm considering giving some level of alchemy to Knights to make them more useful. Also, I intend to make layered/white/potions potentially brewable even if you don't have the required mastery, but with a significant chance of an explosion. (In fact, this was supposed to be in v2.0, but for some reason I deferred it.) Finally, in v4.0 magic guilds will probably begin to sell scrolls, which could provide another source of buffs.
These are excellent ideas, especially the scroll selling one! Though I don't know how to consider this feature where you can brew at lower level risking explosion. Technically it seems good, though most people probably will reload every time they get an explosion from that, which kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe if you could implement a seed for each potion type explosions which would be stored in savegame so results are the same every time, no matter the amount of reloads, this would be viable.

Also, iirc potion enchantments are lowest level possible (if not, do not read further), but in case I am right, I suggest buffing them either so enchantments are permanent, or enchantments are mid-high level, considering you need master alchemy and a bit of reagents to get them, while master fire magic will give you highest level fire enchantment. I would lean towards latter option (simply buffing the enchantments they give).
Tomsod wrote:Well okay, 200 damage is for a fully buffed endgame Light Path party. In my last game (dark, no cleric, and few visits to training halls), I only got ~170. The key is to dual-wield Charele and Wallace and stack as much other Armsmaster bonuses as possible. (Getting a +10 or so item is not THAT hard.) As for Eeofol, I usually get there as soon as I can obtain a couple of invisibility scrolls, but upon reflection, for other players it could indeed be different. (BTW, the well there is (hopefully) no longer abusable in v2.0.) But even if you can't get higher than 150 damage, my point still stands.
Well, then decision to buff vampiric weapon depends on you (and probably on other players if they wished to partake in our discussion about vampiric weapon uses), my opinion on that is now neutral.
Tomsod wrote:Haste is only two red and one yellow. And the game basically showers you with red potions and reagents. Yellow are more rare, but less immediately useful, so Haste is not that hard to make in excess. But really, just recasting the spell from time to time is not that difficult either. In fact, somewhere on my to-do/ideas list is making buff icons blink when they're about to expire, which would make it even easier.
Well, my main problem source was the annoyance factor of having to recast haste every several minutes. But, considering haste potions, and icons blinking, I think the frustration factor is curbed somewhat. The only problem is in Grayface patch HD mode the icons are spread across entire screen, which will make it hard to see them. Even so, these are great ideas, and to be honest, I always hoard reagents and don't make use of them, so actually using them will be beneficial. I was afraid you might eventually run out of them, but honestly, if you have dire need, you could always sleep in an inn for 7-14 days (depending on restock time) and town portal to get reagents from stores. But still, a shop selling almost-unlimited amounts of low level reagents seems a great idea for me, though it seems only for me, so I won't pester you about it, especially that it will require a lot of work.

Also, are you intending to make some additional custom potions? MMMerge has introduced white "essence of <stat>", which work exactly like those from MM6, and pure resistance potions (black, give 40 resistance permanent). I think these would be great addition to the alchemy system.
Last edited by Eksekk on Jun 29 2021, 13:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jun 29 2021, 15:36

Eksekk wrote:These are excellent ideas, especially the scroll selling one! Though I don't know how to consider this feature where you can brew at lower level risking explosion. Technically it seems good, though most people probably will reload every time they get an explosion from that, which kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe if you could implement a seed for each potion type explosions which would be stored in savegame so results are the same every time, no matter the amount of reloads, this would be viable.
I'm not against players re-rolling everything if they want to, but for white and especially black potions the explosion chance is quite high, so I imagine it will be tedious. If they're willing so spend a minute or two brewing each potion, then I guess they deserve it. Patience gan give you a lot of benefits in this game already, and I'm not changing this.
Eksekk wrote:Also, iirc potion enchantments are lowest level possible (if not, do not read further), but in case I am right, I suggest buffing them either so enchantments are permanent, or enchantments are mid-high level, considering you need master alchemy and a bit of reagents to get them, while master fire magic will give you highest level fire enchantment. I would lean towards latter option (simply buffing the enchantments they give).
Shocking and Noxious potions are lowest level, Flaming and Freezing are mid-level. And Swift and Slaying aren't even upgradeable. I've considered buffing the first four, but it didn't make the cut. I'll think about implementing it in 3.0.
Eksekk wrote:Also, are you intending to make some additional custom potions? MMMerge has introduced white "essence of <stat>", which work exactly like those from MM6, and pure resistance potions (black, give 40 resistance permanent). I think these would be great addition to the alchemy system.
Nope, the potions added in 2.0 are just about the only ones I've planned. "Pure resistance" sort of makes sense, but I feel that my elemental immunity potions make it redundant, so I decided against it.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 4 2021, 14:20

How do you make morcarack's scales into dragonscale armor? I'm wanting to kill him just to see how bad the graphics for new items are (just joking btw :D ). Though without fire wands it will be a pain in the ass, but I hope that sparks will help.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jul 4 2021, 14:39

There's a guy on the hill near castle Harmondale who makes the armor. It's not cheap, though. As for killing the dragon, I'd advise re-rolling the items on the floor of his cave if you have the patience, as they're treasure level 3 and so could include a random wand. Morcarack is only immune to fire now, he still lacks any other resistances, so most wands are super effective on him. I've also managed to kill him with bows during playtesting, but it was quite tedious.

Oh, and about graphics: I've decided to commission an artist to draw something decent instead of a recolored chain mail. Does anyone have any recommendations? I'll likely contact some Russian artist as dollars are expensive nowadays, but I still want to keep my options open.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 4 2021, 18:27

Some things that I noticed after playing your mod (it was refreshing to have an easy difficulty after all these hardcore mods!):
- making dragonscale armor is too cheap. 2k for complete immunity to fire? I'd multiply that price x10 at least.
- red dragon scale mail should be called red dragon scale plate. Thought a Cleric could wear it and had to use MMExtension to exchange it for a shield :(
- tularean forest chest's pure might potion has no power. Maybe make no power black potions undrinkable so player doesn't **** themselves up (granted, you also get philosopher's stone there, but player might want to save it for later)?
- followers take your hard won arcomage gold. Seems counterintuitive for me, so maybe fix that?
- those pulsating buff icons aren't changed for me, and you said you drew new ones (I am playing with Grayface HD patch, maybe he hardcodes these icons?)
- There is a bug where two teleporters in Bracada teleport to temple, instead of one temple and one alchemy and magic shops. I suggest fixing it (it's just a quick evt edit).
- remove curse expert says "afraid cursed".
- thunderfist mountain entrance text says "placeholder text".
Last edited by Eksekk on Jul 4 2021, 18:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jul 4 2021, 20:01

Thank you for playtesting! It seems a bugfixer's work is never truly done.
Eksekk wrote:- making dragonscale armor is too cheap. 2k for complete immunity to fire? I'd multiply that price x10 at least.
Consider that it's a one-time offer, and the item is supposed to be a bonus reward for defeating a dragon at level 5. In the early game the player is unlikely to have 20000 gold to spare, so it would be fairly cruel to demand that. The reason the dragon items have a cost at all (besides realism) is that Morcarack drops about 3000 gold, so this way the reward is either a lot of gold, or a good item, but not both.
Eksekk wrote:- red dragon scale mail should be called red dragon scale plate. Thought a Cleric could wear it and had to use MMExtension to exchange it for a shield :(
It has "Type: Plate Armor" in the description. The fact that it's currently a recolored chain mail doesn't really help, though, and I'm very sorry for that. But the specific name is a homage to NetHack, and I don't want to change it.
Eksekk wrote:- tularean forest chest's pure might potion has no power. Maybe make no power black potions undrinkable so player doesn't **** themselves up (granted, you also get philosopher's stone there, but player might want to save it for later)?
Good idea. I should also patch that specific potion.
Eksekk wrote:- followers take your hard won arcomage gold. Seems counterintuitive for me, so maybe fix that?
That's how it always worked. Maybe they offer advice? On the plus side, the reward is also increased by bankers this way.
Eksekk wrote:- those pulsating buff icons aren't changed for me, and you said you drew new ones (I am playing with Grayface HD patch, maybe he hardcodes these icons?)
Good catch! Yes, IIRC, the HD mode uses its own icons. I forgot about those.
Eksekk wrote:- There is a bug where two teleporters in Bracada teleport to temple, instead of one temple and one alchemy and magic shops. I suggest fixing it (it's just a quick evt edit).
This is fixed in the latest version of Grayface's patch, and I've included the fix in v2.0. Are you sure both teleporters move you to the temple? I couldn't reproduce this.
Eksekk wrote:- remove curse expert says "afraid cursed".
Yes, I see it. Will fix in 2.1.
Eksekk wrote:- thunderfist mountain entrance text says "placeholder text".
Which entrance? All of them have a descriptive text for me.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 5 2021, 9:09

Tomsod wrote:It has "Type: Plate Armor" in the description.
But you don't get the description unless you also have made it into plate mail. In the dialog it says "dragonscale mail" or something like that. At least make a note either in dialog or mod notes so future players won't be screwed if they don't know mmextension commands.
(by the way, killing a dragon was not that hard, even without wands, rather tedious, I just sparked him until run out of mana and then blessed everyone and bowed him, had to reload 10-15 times, not including reloading for bows in shop, but they could be reduced had I checked for bows before training as well)

And BTW, IMO to prevent dragon multilooting you should either integrate the MMExtension script that makes monsters have fixed loot (but please don't do that, I don't consider dragon multilooting good, but rerolling for item you actually want is sometimes warranted imo), or make Wromthrax also drop scales (or nothing at all if you can't be bothered to repeat the quest, this time for cold resistant gear?). Reason being people can after getting to harmondale immediately go fight Wromthrax and kill him and multiloot him. (Actually the best fix probably would be removing multilooting bug altogether). But if you also disable Wromthrax multilooting, the next most reachable dragons are in Titan's Fortress, which makes it impossible (or at least so hard that it will deter most people) to cheese them.
Tomsod wrote:This is fixed in the latest version of Grayface's patch, and I've included the fix in v2.0. Are you sure both teleporters move you to the temple? I couldn't reproduce this.
I am sure. I installed the most recent Grayface patch there was at your v2.0 release. But I remember always having problems with these teleporters. Shall I upload my game folder or something? Oh, and I have unchecked lod changes during installation (only have patched icons.lod), in fear of overwriting your changes - maybe that was a mistake?
Tomsod wrote:Which entrance? All of them have a descriptive text for me.
The one you first get into thunderfist mountain, from nighon tunnels.
Last edited by Eksekk on Jul 5 2021, 9:20, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jul 5 2021, 10:32

Eksekk wrote:But you don't get the description unless you also have made it into plate mail. In the dialog it says "dragonscale mail" or something like that. At least make a note either in dialog or mod notes so future players won't be screwed if they don't know mmextension commands.
The smith does say "If you have the money, I'm willing to make a plate armor or a shield out of them." But to make it more clear, I'll also change the dialog option from "make armor" to "make plate".
Eksekk wrote:And BTW, IMO to prevent dragon multilooting you should either integrate the MMExtension script that makes monsters have fixed loot (but please don't do that, I don't consider dragon multilooting good, but rerolling for item you actually want is sometimes warranted imo), or make Wromthrax also drop scales (or nothing at all if you can't be bothered to repeat the quest, this time for cold resistant gear?). Reason being people can after getting to harmondale immediately go fight Wromthrax and kill him and multiloot him. (Actually the best fix probably would be removing multilooting bug altogether). But if you also disable Wromthrax multilooting, the next most reachable dragons are in Titan's Fortress, which makes it impossible (or at least so hard that it will deter most people) to cheese them.
Yeah, I'll most likely remove multiloot in 3.0. So enjoy it while you can. Patching specific dragons is a half-measure anyway, as a sufficiently determined player can always sprint into Eeofol with a couple bought scrolls of invisibility (I've done that).
Eksekk wrote:Oh, and I have unchecked lod changes during installation (only have patched icons.lod), in fear of overwriting your changes - maybe that was a mistake?
Oh, that would explain this! I completely forgot to mention that not only this mod is compatible with MM7Patch's lod changes, it actually expects them to be installed. Indeed, without those, I was able to reproduce both the teleporter bug and the Nighon Tunnels (lack of) text.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 5 2021, 10:37

Tomsod wrote:The smith does say "If you have the money, I'm willing to make a plate armor or a shield out of them."
Sorry for being a dummy then! :D
Tomsod wrote:Oh, that would explain this! I completely forgot to mention that not only this mod is compatible with MM7Patch's lod changes, it actually expects them to be installed. Indeed, without those, I was able to reproduce both the teleporter bug and the Nighon Tunnels (lack of) text.
If I install it now (in the middle of playthrough), will it break my game or make it unplayable? I think not, at most some changes won't be in effect, but wanna ask someone more experienced just in case.

Also BTW, is mass casting gonna be in 3.0? Reason being that I would like to play with melee party next, and having slow buff casting speed will be a deterrent for me.

Also another suggestion, as for class changes, do you wanna consider giving druids GM elemental and self magics? They are very underpowered as of now and brewing elemental immunity potions doesn't cut it for me, as you have pretty much almost no encounters with elemental monsters in MM7 unlike in MM8, where they would be immensely useful. Also they don't have access to dark and light, so they still are worse in some way than "pure" casters sorcerers and clerics. If you buffed them in the way I explained, my meta melee party would change from KTCS to KTCD.
Last edited by Eksekk on Jul 5 2021, 10:51, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jul 5 2021, 10:50

Eksekk wrote:If I install it now (in the middle of playthrough), will it break my game or make it unplayable? I think not, at most some changes won't be in effect, but wanna ask someone more experienced just in case.
From looking at it, the patch makes changes to Tatalia outside, the Wine Cellar there, and the Eeofol's Dragon Caves, that won't be applied if you already visited those areas (at least until the map refill). Most likely none of those are critical, though.
Eksekk wrote:Also BTW, is mass casting gonna be in 3.0? Reason being that I would like to play with melee party next, and having slow buff casting speed will be a deterrent for me.
Sure, I can promise that. 3.0 is supposed to implement all spellcasting changes that didn't fit in 2.0, so yeah.
Eksekk wrote:Also another suggestion, as for class changes, do you wanna consider giving druids GM elemental and self magics? They are very underpowered as of now and brewing elemental immunity potions doesn't cut it for me, as you have pretty much almost no encounters with elemental monsters in MM7 unlike in MM8, where they would be immensely useful. If you buffed them in the way I explained, my meta melee party would change from KTCS to KTCD.
In 3.0, druids will be able to GM some of the magic schools, depending on the second promotion (Light or Dark). The Light druid gets Air, Water, Body and maybe Spirit and so can substitute both for cleric and sorcerer (WRT utility magic), while a warlock gets Earth, Mind, and probably master Dark (rationale: Ruler's Ring artifact was made by a warlock) for maximum offensive capabilities.
Last edited by Tomsod on Jul 5 2021, 11:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 5 2021, 11:35

Tomsod wrote:Sure, I can promise that. 3.0 is supposed to implement all spellcasting changes that didn't fit in 2.0, so yeah.
Yay! :-D

Oh, so your class changes will be varied depending on path? I honestly am not too sure if I like that idea, but it is certainly more interesting than just all GM. (BTW, on light druid you've given all important magicks on GM so I will still substitute him as sorcerer probably). Make sure to have class changes documented, because IIRC ingame skills are shown as yellow if at least one path can master them (or maybe are shown at minimum level that both paths have it). On that topic, maybe implementing so there is letter D after master skill text if dark path can only master and L after GM skill text if light path can GM it will reduce ambiguity (or just coloring etc. green for light path, purple for dark path, of course colors are totally random)?

I can't wait for 3.0! Do you have and want to share any approximation when it might be done?

Also, a bit off topic question. Are you gonna include MMExtension and edit text tables, or change them directly in the exe? I noticed that you're trying to avoid using MMExtension. I'm curious why.
Last edited by Eksekk on Jul 5 2021, 11:47, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jul 5 2021, 12:09

Eksekk wrote:Oh, so your class changes will be varied depending on path? I honestly am not too sure if I like that idea, but it is certainly more interesting than just all GM. (BTW, on light druid you've given all important magicks on GM so I will still substitute him as sorcerer probably).
Yes, the main point of being able to mix Light and Dark promotions is the ability to choose your party's skill progression. If the only difference were the Mirrored Path skill, the distinction would only be meaningful for Clerics and Sorcerers. By making each promotion distinct from its counterpart, I hope to add more depth to possible party compositions.
Eksekk wrote:Make sure to have class changes documented, because IIRC ingame skills are shown as yellow if at least one path can master them (or maybe are shown at minimum level that both paths have it). On that topic, maybe implementing so there is letter D after master skill text if dark path can only master and L after GM skill text if light path can GM it will reduce ambiguity (or just coloring etc. green for light path, purple for dark path, of course colors are totally random)?
I've also thought of color-coding them. Probably blue for light, purple for dark, green for either 2nd promotion.
Eksekk wrote:I can't wait for 3.0! Do you have and want to share any approximation when it might be done?
This year maybe? It took me about four months to make 2.0, and then I ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶r̶a̶s̶t̶i̶n̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ playtested it for three more months. Currently I need to finish an unrelated NetHack patch which was almost-but-not-quite done for far too long (concurrently I'll upload 2.1 with fixes and commissioned armor graphics), and then I'll start with 3.0. I'm pretty excited about it as well, but I have a full-time job now, so it might go slower than before.
Eksekk wrote:Also, a bit off topic question. Are you gonna include MMExtension and edit text tables, or change them directly in the exe? I noticed that you're trying to avoid using MMExtension.
Directly patching mm7.exe is no big deal. I try not to depend on MMExtension, because I don't really need it and unnecessary dependencies are generally bad, and also because the part where it decompiles those tables for like 5 minutes is annoying. (Most people don't even use them, come on!)
Actually, I initially tried writing v1.0 in Lua using MMExtension, but it turned out its hooks don't allow some assembly tricks like preserving flags on call or return, which is useful surprisingly often, so I switched to a standalone DLL.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 8 2021, 11:55

Alright, so here's another batch of feedback:
  • buff flying fist (and harm?) - the former was buffed in MM8 to 1d10 damage per skill instead of 1d5, and I consider that a good move (I never use self damaging spells anyways, if I have spirit lash I forget to use it)
  • telekinesis master says n/a, and it's learnable at master
  • buff inferno? high mana cost, weak damage, and you don't usually get many monsters in sight (that is its biggest culprit) - in MM8 it has d2 per skill
  • overall, I think you should buff most damage spells by reducing their mana cost. Yes, magic might be powerful, but resting every couple of mobs in early game because your damage spell has 10 mana cost is frustrating to me. That is why sparks is such a good and probably only choice - very good damage for only 4 mana. (Please don't nerf sparks, rather buff other damage spells, as playing magic party is already moderately hard in my opinion).
  • not related question, but how do you get offsets of some functions like evt commands? I tried multiple times reading both MMExtension scripts and source code, and couldn't pinpoint where they are located (I found file dealing with offsets, but it has only some of them)

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Tomsod » Jul 8 2021, 18:57

Eksekk wrote:buff flying fist (and harm?) - the former was buffed in MM8 to 1d10 damage per skill instead of 1d5, and I consider that a good move (I never use self damaging spells anyways, if I have spirit lash I forget to use it)
Makes sense. When Flying Fist was introduced in MM6, it could be learned at Body skill level 1, so its high fixed damage could be useful to those with low skill, and the low per-skill growth was a reasonable trade-off. But since in MM7-8 you must Master Body before this spell becomes available, this doesn't work anymore. I suppose this is another change MM8 did right, so yeah, I should borrow it too.
Eksekk wrote:telekinesis master says n/a, and it's learnable at master
Yes, I see. Another vanilla typo, I believe.
Eksekk wrote:buff inferno? high mana cost, weak damage, and you don't usually get many monsters in sight (that is its biggest culprit) - in MM8 it has d2 per skill
If you have at least 8 enemies in sight, the total damage it deals is higher than Incinerate, at a lower cost. I find it useful as is, for those crowd-control situations where Fireball would not work (either because the party would get hurt, or enemies are too spread out). None of the AOE spells are too weak, in my experience.
Eksekk wrote:overall, I think you should buff most damage spells by reducing their mana cost. Yes, magic might be powerful, but resting every couple of mobs in early game because your damage spell has 10 mana cost is frustrating to me. That is why sparks is such a good and probably only choice - very good damage for only 4 mana. (Please don't nerf sparks, rather buff other damage spells, as playing magic party is already moderately hard in my opinion).
You're the second person this week to argue that the magic is too pricey, but I'm still not convinced! If you have trouble conserving mana with Expert-level spells, then switch to Basic ones, like Fire Bolt or Ice Bolt. The more damaging spells are invariably less mana-efficient, and that's actually a very good design, as it ensures the low-level spells won't become obsolete when you upgrade your spellbook. It's also possible that you neglect using blue potions. Anyway, if the player never ran out of mana, what would even be the point of finite magic pool? I don't want to make the game (unconditionally) harder, but I try not to make it too easy, either. As for Sparks -- they (and Poison Spray) are indeed very damaging, but this is offset by their extremely short effective range, making you subject to melee monster attacks.
Eksekk wrote:not related question, but how do you get offsets of some functions like evt commands? I tried multiple times reading both MMExtension scripts and source code, and couldn't pinpoint where they are located (I found file dealing with offsets, but it has only some of them)
Well, if I need to find some function, I either search in the disassembler from a known function that is likely to call it (or be called from it), or pinpoint some data that should be used or (preferably) changed by the function, and set a watchpoint in the debugger. Which function do you need? The one to process events is at 0x44686D in MM7, and it's hardcoded here.

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Re: Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v2.0 is out!

Postby Eksekk » Jul 9 2021, 15:02

Tomsod wrote:If you have at least 8 enemies in sight, the total damage it deals is higher than Incinerate, at a lower cost. I find it useful as is, for those crowd-control situations where Fireball would not work (either because the party would get hurt, or enemies are too spread out). None of the AOE spells are too weak, in my experience.
And in which situations do you get at least 8 enemies in sight, after having master fire of course? I'm not angry, just genuinely curious of your usage of this spell.
Tomsod wrote:You're the second person this week to argue that the magic is too pricey, but I'm still not convinced! If you have trouble conserving mana with Expert-level spells, then switch to Basic ones, like Fire Bolt or Ice Bolt. The more damaging spells are invariably less mana-efficient, and that's actually a very good design, as it ensures the low-level spells won't become obsolete when you upgrade your spellbook. It's also possible that you neglect using blue potions. Anyway, if the player never ran out of mana, what would even be the point of finite magic pool? I don't want to make the game (unconditionally) harder, but I try not to make it too easy, either. As for Sparks -- they (and Poison Spray) are indeed very damaging, but this is offset by their extremely short effective range, making you subject to melee monster attacks.
Well, then I will be using sparks forever :) No problem that you're not making the proposed changes, it's your mod after all!
Tomsod wrote:Well, if I need to find some function, I either search in the disassembler from a known function that is likely to call it (or be called from it), or pinpoint some data that should be used or (preferably) changed by the function, and set a watchpoint in the debugger. Which function do you need? The one to process events is at 0x44686D in MM7, and it's hardcoded here.
I'm just annoyed that I am unable to "extract" from Grayface's code offsets of required functions. The stuff that follows is purely hypothetical (I don't need it), just being curious, so feel free to not answer for any reason. If however you wish to, let's say I want to have the address of function that is called when

Code: Select all

evt.CheckSeason()
is called. Where in Grayface's code do I search? (stuff with debugger is probably too advanced for me, I can solve the simplest of crackmes, but debugging a real application is new and too hard to me - I do understand what

Code: Select all

add dword ptr ds:[edx + eax*4 + 0x7], ecx
means on a syntactical level, but all the implications of this used address (what does it change) - nope. Do you guys have some sort of IDA database or another static/dynamic analysis database I can refer to?).

Also, two things regarding Walls of Mist. First, I just noticed that I fell in Walls of the Mist and received damage. Did you enable fall damage in dungeons? Second, Walls of Mist has a lot of piles of gold (technically items, but they often generate as gold) in the section with barrels, which can be abused to gain infinite gold if they respawn constantly. Did you fix that?

Also, it seems like destroy undead can be cast by monsters through walls (check the biggest room of Temple of the Sun, monsters behind secret door cast it)
Last edited by Eksekk on Jul 9 2021, 15:56, edited 3 times in total.


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