MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
tnevolin
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby tnevolin » Aug 23 2022, 19:58

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 23 2022, 9:35 1: Conan doesn't have its stats adjusted like other 2h axes do, check that the artifacts are modified to your liking.

Right. I may miss its properties changed. However, for relics of such magnitude this should be minor difference.

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 23 2022, 9:35 2: Of darkness effects are using the old calculation, that is to say, it only works on the slower of the two weapons you have. Given the direction you've gone with recovery, I think it makes the most sense for it to work on either weapon. I haven't checked swiftness, but I think it uses the same calculation internally so I assume that the issue applies to both.

Good catch. Yes, I would like it to work on any weapon. Need to fix.
https://github.com/tnevolin/mm6-skill-e ... /issues/34

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 23 2022, 9:35 3: Some enemy projectiles do not home at all, and other enemy projectiles are inconsistent. I believe archers consistently do not home, and titans are inconsistent, with roughly 1 in 5 shots not homing. There are other enemies this applies to as well, and it does seem to be tied to enemy type. For titans it holds true for both their standard attack and spell attack as of 65

Aiming code and projectile code is very convoluted in vanilla. I have already went through few iterations to make everything works. There still could be omissions. Will look into it.

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 23 2022, 9:35 4: Town portal seems to be pointing to the wrong locations. I don't think I have any other mods installed that could be the culprit.

Do you mean wrong map? Never saw it. Is it reproducible?
I didn't touch anything map related or TP code at all.

tnevolin
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby tnevolin » Aug 23 2022, 19:59

RE: page timeout.
It bit me before. The trick I use is to just copy all text I entered *before* clicking submit button if I fear that it was hanging there for too long. Then paste it back.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby Ark_Tolei » Aug 24 2022, 13:23

I hope I didn't give the impression that the fundamental issues were from things in the mod itself. Uncapping recovery opens up a can of worms that were built into the original design of the game. There are 3 pillars of dps, damage, accuracy, and recovery. Having certain weapons scale all 3, while other weapons only scale some, is much harder to balance. This was bypassed in vanilla, because all the main hand weapons scale damage and accuracy eventually, and every weapon could hit the recovery cap. But the key is that vanilla didn't fix the problem, it just put up a limiter that mitigated the damage that problem causes.

Note: when I said 2h weapons are a nightmare to balance, I was saying that they are an extremely difficult challenge, not that you did a bad job tackling the challenge you were faced with. In version 65 my paladin never transitioned to dual wield, because it never became worth it for them. They had lower damage than the knight, but it was perfectly serviceable. Bear in mind that this was version 65 before the axe recovery nerf, which massively weakens 2h viability in mid-lategame.

I suspect with the recovery nerf for axes that it's going to be difficult to justify using anything other than maces until very high skill levels (~20-30 axe skill might contribute enough speed to have 1 pure dps character if you have other maces). The reason I suggest an AC/Resist 0 proc is that it allows you to make weapons that have a more pure dps focus, without needing to make the scaling numbers silly to justify it. Knocking resists to 0 more than doubles the party's dps against a gold dragon. Knocking AC to 0 is a substantially smaller dps boost, but impacts dps on all targets, has a disproportionately high effect on your low accuracy party members and importantly, also impacts the proc chance for other effects because you can't paralyze if you miss. I don't think I would bring an AC proc over either of the other effects, but I'm unlikely to duplicate the other effects over adding the AC proc.

You did a very good job with the mod. The recovery change in particular is extremely clever, allowing a foundation upon which you could do incredibly interesting things with speed, and the combat changes were a delightful change of pace from the original game. Any advice I give is not meant to be indicative of dislike of the mod, or an attempt to suggest you did a bad job, and whether that advice is useful is entirely up to your design discretion. I specialize in breaking combat systems, not building them from scratch.

tnevolin
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby tnevolin » Aug 26 2022, 0:48

Absolutely no worries, Ark.
I read you right. You wouldn't post it here if you wouldn't like the mod!
:D

This being said you got the modification idea right. Simplify the mechanics so that myself and other modders can tweak it to balance with predictable and intuitive results.

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 24 2022, 13:23 I hope I didn't give the impression that the fundamental issues were from things in the mod itself. Uncapping recovery opens up a can of worms that were built into the original design of the game. There are 3 pillars of dps, damage, accuracy, and recovery. Having certain weapons scale all 3, while other weapons only scale some, is much harder to balance. This was bypassed in vanilla, because all the main hand weapons scale damage and accuracy eventually, and every weapon could hit the recovery cap. But the key is that vanilla didn't fix the problem, it just put up a limiter that mitigated the damage that problem causes.

You nailed it.

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 24 2022, 13:23 Note: when I said 2h weapons are a nightmare to balance, I was saying that they are an extremely difficult challenge, not that you did a bad job tackling the challenge you were faced with. In version 65 my paladin never transitioned to dual wield, because it never became worth it for them. They had lower damage than the knight, but it was perfectly serviceable. Bear in mind that this was version 65 before the axe recovery nerf, which massively weakens 2h viability in mid-lategame.

This can be extended to all weapons and all weapon wielding types. They are all very hard to balance as they equate to a single damage rate (DPS) value. Any slightest deviation in parameters lead to one weapon or usage type prevails and others just not worthy. The usual game solution for that is to assign them some nonlinear effects those are difficult to compute in human head and evaluate-compare. Like mace paralyze, etc. That is essentially what we can do and that is what you proposed with AC/resistance slash. Which is right path.

Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 24 2022, 13:23 I suspect with the recovery nerf for axes that it's going to be difficult to justify using anything other than maces until very high skill levels (~20-30 axe skill might contribute enough speed to have 1 pure dps character if you have other maces). The reason I suggest an AC/Resist 0 proc is that it allows you to make weapons that have a more pure dps focus, without needing to make the scaling numbers silly to justify it. Knocking resists to 0 more than doubles the party's dps against a gold dragon. Knocking AC to 0 is a substantially smaller dps boost, but impacts dps on all targets, has a disproportionately high effect on your low accuracy party members and importantly, also impacts the proc chance for other effects because you can't paralyze if you miss. I don't think I would bring an AC proc over either of the other effects, but I'm unlikely to duplicate the other effects over adding the AC proc.

As I said above - this is the right way to go. Just try different flavors and weight them. Could be interesting.


Ark_Tolei wrote: Aug 24 2022, 13:23 You did a very good job with the mod. The recovery change in particular is extremely clever, allowing a foundation upon which you could do incredibly interesting things with speed, and the combat changes were a delightful change of pace from the original game. Any advice I give is not meant to be indicative of dislike of the mod, or an attempt to suggest you did a bad job, and whether that advice is useful is entirely up to your design discretion. I specialize in breaking combat systems, not building them from scratch.

I believe all advice are useful. In fact I sometimes take more fun in discussing and tasting different changes than even implementing them and testing.
:-D

What do you mean by breaking systems? Like making game crash?

Malekitsu
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby Malekitsu » Aug 29 2022, 6:15

Hey Ark_Toley! Thank you very much for trying the mod!
However since the current release the changes have been so many that a changelog is impossible.
I'll list few just to make you an idea:
All monster have been rebalanced to make them challenging throughout all the game.
All weapon and spells have been reviewed and have been rebalanced (lot of math behind it).
Paladin and Archer are now a really good choice.
Plate now reduces physical damage (2%/skill)and cover affect only meele damage. Also mail has reduced physical damage (1%/skill)
Attribute points are now valuable troughout all the game and are actually a good choice.
Monster have now a detailed information (more than you can expect) upon right clicking.
And many many more.

The mod is actually in a really good state right now but we are not ready to make an official release yet.
If you wish to play the current build I recommend you to join slack.

Eksekk
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby Eksekk » Aug 30 2022, 2:57

Malekitsu wrote: Aug 29 2022, 6:15 Hey Ark_Toley! Thank you very much for trying the mod!
However since the current release the changes have been so many that a changelog is impossible.
I'll list few just to make you an idea:
All monster have been rebalanced to make them challenging throughout all the game.
All weapon and spells have been reviewed and have been rebalanced (lot of math behind it).
Paladin and Archer are now a really good choice.
Plate now reduces physical damage (2%/skill)and cover affect only meele damage. Also mail has reduced physical damage (1%/skill)
Attribute points are now valuable troughout all the game and are actually a good choice.
Monster have now a detailed information (more than you can expect) upon right clicking.
And many many more.

The mod is actually in a really good state right now but we are not ready to make an official release yet.
If you wish to play the current build I recommend you to join slack.
Can I get a slack invite (and maybe also new general link for this thread (current expired))? I want to play updated version because it's probably better and my feedback will be more valuable.

Malekitsu
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

Unread postby Malekitsu » Aug 30 2022, 6:15

Sure!
Here is the link.
https://join.slack.com/t/gamemodding/sh ... ~MuZ7I0G4g
I'll explain you better about the settings once in ;)


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