MM6 skill emphasis mod (#74)

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tnevolin
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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 14:47

raekuul wrote: May 28 2022, 22:38 edit3: okay so monster damage probably should be scaled relative to monster level, I just got a new game TPK'd by the goblins on top of the NS Self Guild. Also apparently extendedEngagementDistance doesn't do what I thought it was doing? I'm actually getting more Green pulls than I was before.
I need to review the code to remember what it is doing exactly. However, I am sure monsters should not engage when you are green. That means they don't see/feel you. They can wander around their location a little. So if you are on a very edge between green and yellow they may randomly walk toward you and spot you.

If you are saying you are well far away and green and they still run toward you that should be a bug. Please try to reproduce and create issue for me.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 14:52

Malekitsu wrote: May 29 2022, 0:18 I was thinking, how about having loot to have a level requirement?
It could be cool to prevent abusing, allowing to make stronger late game items, and should be smarter than reworking all the shops and the chests.

The idea is to make it requiring skill level, depending on the loot level, having something like:
Loot level: 1,2,3,4,5,6 = Required skill 1,4,7,9,11,14
That will make the game having even more emphasis on the skills :P


Do you think it is possible to code this into the game?
Do you guys like the idea?
The idea is generally good. However, it is better to tie item level to difficulty to obtain it rather than restrict by certain game progression stage. This is a free roaming game. So some people may try to obtain such item by rushing to this location early on if the are so inclined to suffer and grind. Let them.

Yes, I think this is doable. There should be chest generator hook somewhere there. Besides, we can just control item levels at certain locations directly to have finer grained control.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 14:59

raekuul wrote: May 29 2022, 0:42 for the 2h damage bonus: basing it on mastery like everything else isn't a bad idea. Compounding it with promotion bonus damage is just asking for trouble (since promotion bonuses are also per rank of skill, so tying it all together kind of makes the Champion promotion even more of a holy grail for melee than it already is), and in any case 2h weapon is still mechanically inferior to dual-wielding (at the very least, you can get better enchantment spread by dual-wielding or sord-and-bord compared to only using one weapon)
Sure. I thought about it. The heaviest problem dealing with whole numbers is that they are too small and don't leave enough wiggle room. Whereas changing some parameter by 1 in either direction make a huge change in result. Feel free to play with parameters to create better mix.
raekuul wrote: May 29 2022, 0:42 The main issue is that I can't actually tell what was done as part of SkEm in the first place, what was done to rebalance the monsters in light of SkEm (the stat multipliers are definitely in response to SkEm), and what was later changed in SkEm in response to rebalancing the monsters. I may just have to dig through the git history.

My main interest in the code is disentangling the Skill/Monster/Magic changes from each other so that I can run Randomized SkEm without having to deal with the "Vanilla routing won't work here" issues that all the monster changes add in (as it is now, SkEm greatly encourages running the dungeons/quests in a specific order, which goes against the premise of a Randomizer). In the matter of adding/modifying tech, you'll have to ask someone else.
Yes, monster buff is the result of combat skill effect increase. Vanilla parameters are all ones. There is no way for modification but up. Therefore, monsters should be stronger too to balance, etc.

Again, if you manage to decouple them - that would be awesome.
Last edited by tnevolin on May 29 2022, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 15:04

raekuul wrote: May 29 2022, 13:50 tnevolin: did you modify low-level spells before or after giving low-level spells to a bunch of monsters who traditionally don't have ranged attacks? Because eating all these mind blast spells is starting to hurt.
Monsters use spells exactly same way as party. Meaning if the spell is modified they'll use modified spell. At least this is my understanding. That is why they are given just three parameters: spell name, rank, level. These three parameters combined should compute the damage right.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 15:08

RawSugar wrote: May 29 2022, 14:05 I feel like you're skipping the whole analysis portion of the process raekuul :) do you know what the problem is and how to fix it?
When you're both reducing player damage and monster toughness the effort seems a little...unfocused?
That is right. There are thousands ways to mix and match different game features. I recommend not to change them left and right as they are all interconnected (hence, the balance). Identify the problem first (example: early game is not passable), then think about different options to solve it, then select the best option/direction that is least invasive and allows to solve this problem only not creating others.

Don't take it as a super formal instruction, though.
:)
There are plenty people at this forum those can review any solution and make comments/correction. That is why we are having it!
Last edited by tnevolin on May 29 2022, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 15:14

raekuul wrote: May 29 2022, 14:46 I figured out part of why things are going pear-shaped, by the way.

tnevolin, to confirm a thing: should a simple Goblin be casting Fire Bolt at Novice 1 or Novice 2? Because as things are on the git they're casting at Novice 2, but your monster ranged attacks block only assigned them Novice 1.

Image

Sorry. Your image didn't load for me.

Didn't get what is the problem, either. Aren't "as things are on the git" and "monster ranged attacks block" - same things?

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby Malekitsu » May 29 2022, 15:28

I like the idea of level requirement for items, but would prefer class level to not force players to rank skills to be able to use items. Its also something you can more or less selfimpose and would probably be difficult to code.
It wouldn't be so different to have the spells requiring to be expert or master in mm7-8.
The reason there is no need to change spell in mm6 is that they are limited by spell points.
The idea is generally good. However, it is better to tie item level to difficulty to obtain it rather than restrict by certain game progression stage. This is a free roaming game. So some people may try to obtain such item by rushing to this location early on if the are so inclined to suffer and grind. Let them.
Nice feedback, I think maybe lowering the requirement to such level that you only will face level requirement if you are skipping too much content should be working, having something more like: 1,3,5,7,9,12 (for artifacts/relics).
for the 2h damage bonus: basing it on mastery like everything else isn't a bad idea. Compounding it with promotion bonus damage is just asking for trouble (since promotion bonuses are also per rank of skill, so tying it all together kind of makes the Champion promotion even more of a holy grail for melee than it already is)
Got it, the only thing that bother me is that getting expert is a bit too easy.
Sure. I thought about it. The heaviest problem dealing with whole numbers is that they are too small and don't leave enough wiggle room. Whereas changing some parameter by 1 in either direction make a huge change in result. Feel free to play with parameters to create better mix.
Will make a damage spredsheet on excel tonight, to do some testing.
I'll publish it as soon as possible.

As damage should be tied also to monster health could you tell tell what values are you testing now?

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby raekuul » May 29 2022, 16:03

tnevolin wrote: May 29 2022, 15:14
raekuul wrote: May 29 2022, 14:46 I figured out part of why things are going pear-shaped, by the way.

tnevolin, to confirm a thing: should a simple Goblin be casting Fire Bolt at Novice 1 or Novice 2? Because as things are on the git they're casting at Novice 2, but your monster ranged attacks block only assigned them Novice 1.

Image

Sorry. Your image didn't load for me.

Didn't get what is the problem, either. Aren't "as things are on the git" and "monster ranged attacks block" - same things?
Let me try asking a different way, then.

You add the Fire Bolt spell to Goblin, and assign it Novice Rank with skill level 1. This is before the monsterDamageMultiplier is applied to monster skill ranks (which raises it to Novice Rank with skill level 2). Is that the intended behavior for spells added to monsters that didn't have them before?
Last edited by raekuul on May 29 2022, 16:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby RawSugar » May 29 2022, 16:06

im pretty sure this is because the multiplier applies to spells - so the mod gives them rank 1 then multiplies it w 2

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby Malekitsu » May 29 2022, 16:14

Sure. I thought about it. The heaviest problem dealing with whole numbers is that they are too small and don't leave enough wiggle room. Whereas changing some parameter by 1 in either direction make a huge change in result. Feel free to play with parameters to create better mix.
I've checked into this, you can work also with decimals, that opens a lot of options.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 22:43

Malekitsu wrote: May 29 2022, 15:28 Got it, the only thing that bother me is that getting expert is a bit too easy.

It depends on how valuable sub-expert skills are. If vanilla they are garbage. Therefore, getting expert easy in vanilla is a practical requirement.
This mod give more value to sub-expert skills. So getting expert very early is no longer an imperative.

Malekitsu wrote: May 29 2022, 15:28 As damage should be tied also to monster health could you tell tell what values are you testing now?

If you are asking me I am not testing anything right now. Open to test whatever new ideas are generated on this forum.
Generally, yes. Increase in damage should match monster health/damage.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 22:54

raekuul wrote: May 29 2022, 16:03 You add the Fire Bolt spell to Goblin, and assign it Novice Rank with skill level 1. This is before the monsterDamageMultiplier is applied to monster skill ranks (which raises it to Novice Rank with skill level 2). Is that the intended behavior for spells added to monsters that didn't have them before?

I think I get it. Are you referring to this line?
https://github.com/tnevolin/mm6-skill-e ... d.lua#L674

Yes. This is intended. In fact these two changes are independent. First I give them spells. Second I multiply spell skill based on damage multiplier. Either of above may or may not happen.

Meaning I did not intend to give Goblin level 2 spell specifically but I gave it level 1 spell and then multiplied all spell skills by 2. Hence the result.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 22:57

Malekitsu wrote: May 29 2022, 16:14
Sure. I thought about it. The heaviest problem dealing with whole numbers is that they are too small and don't leave enough wiggle room. Whereas changing some parameter by 1 in either direction make a huge change in result. Feel free to play with parameters to create better mix.
I've checked into this, you can work also with decimals, that opens a lot of options.

Are you sure engine would work with decimals??? That's the news for me. If so, then sure. It'll make balancing easier.
Do you have a test case to prove decimals are treated right?

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 23:05

Everybody, I apologize if I cannot answer each and every message. Last few weeks they are coming as exceptionally quick succession and I only have once a day to check my email.
:(

Feel free to reiterate it once more or post on Slack where I probably be able to answer specific questions faster.

Needless to say that I am quite pleasantly surprised to have such active followers! Thanks for your ideas and enthusiasm!
:-D

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby Malekitsu » May 29 2022, 23:09

tnevolin wrote: May 29 2022, 22:57 Are you sure engine would work with decimals??? That's the news for me. If so, then sure. It'll make balancing easier.
Do you have a test case to prove decimals are treated right?
Sure, posting tomorrow. What I tested was reducing knight bonus weapon damage from 2 to 1.5.
In the Stats menu the damage changed accordingly, rounding up if I can remember right.
Haven't tested the actual damage on monsters.
If you think about it resisted spell are reduced by 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, so the engine should have a rounding system.
Considering that if you resist a spell you are never getting hit for 0 damage, even 0,1 should be rounded up to 1.
Not sure here, should do some testing.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 29 2022, 23:21

Malekitsu wrote: May 29 2022, 23:09
tnevolin wrote: May 29 2022, 22:57 Are you sure engine would work with decimals??? That's the news for me. If so, then sure. It'll make balancing easier.
Do you have a test case to prove decimals are treated right?
Sure, posting tomorrow. What I tested was reducing knight bonus weapon damage from 2 to 1.5.
In the Stats the damage changed accordingly, rounding up if I can remember right.
Haven't tested the actual damage on monsters.
If you think about it resisted spell are reduced by 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, so the engine should have a rounding system.
Considering that if you resist a spell you are never getting hit for 0 damage, even 0,1 should be rounded up to 1.
Not sure here, should do some testing.

Ah, you are talking about using decimals in the script. Well, yes, that could be done because script uses regular programmatic operations. However, the final result that script passes to the game engine should be whole number as you correctly noticed.

So yes, we can use fractional coefficients in internal algorithms and then round them as long as player is not surprised by it.
For example, giving say 1/3 of damage per skill level would actually translate to: give 1 to damage every 3 skill levels (or whatever other rounding approach we take).
That is absolutely possible I just tried to avoid it as vanilla does not use fractional arithmetic and some players can be not used to it. Not even mentioning that it will be more difficult to crunch numbers in player's head.

Resisted spells are reduced by whole number arithmetic too. They are divided by 2 at each step.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby Malekitsu » May 30 2022, 0:58

Ah, you are talking about using decimals in the script. Well, yes, that could be done because script uses regular programmatic operations. However, the final result that script passes to the game engine should be whole number as you correctly noticed.
So that was the reason.
At the end shouldn't change too much.
That is absolutely possible I just tried to avoid it as vanilla does not use fractional arithmetic and some players can be not used to it. Not even mentioning that it will be more difficult to crunch numbers in player's head.
If it is .5 and not .3333 should be still quite easy.

BTW:
I've done a spreadsheet for damage.
It doesn't take in consideration speed or attack(precision).
I haven't added dual wield because I don't know how it is calculated, will work on it, if someone could give me the formula it's better.
Feel free to play with it:

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AhWIp78etkxRiTEpvKC ... _?e=uVXa7a

Will adjust values as soon as I'm back home
Last edited by Malekitsu on May 30 2022, 1:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby raekuul » May 30 2022, 1:04

wrt monster spells: As long as that is the intended behavior, I can live with it.

The game does properly calculate non-whole multipliers in the end, it's just a matter of the game rounding upwards when it needs a whole number result (which is why I still get n.2 fire bolt goblins with a 1.5 damage multiplier) so it still skews upwards at the very low end. Long-term using non-whole numbers will allow for more fine control without having to individually modify monster definitions.

The good news is that blending SkEm with Randomizer is just a matter of reining in the monster multipliers - it's the modding equivalent of "season to taste."

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 30 2022, 4:29

Malekitsu wrote: May 30 2022, 0:58 BTW:
I've done a spreadsheet for damage.
It doesn't take in consideration speed or attack(precision).
I haven't added dual wield because I don't know how it is calculated, will work on it, if someone could give me the formula it's better.
Feel free to play with it:

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AhWIp78etkxRiTEpvKC ... _?e=uVXa7a

Will adjust values as soon as I'm back home

I am thinking now whether I did the right thing tying anything to promotion? Different classes have different promotion complexity and different location/timing. Maybe we should just give flat bonuses to knight and 2h weapons?

Another thing to you and others expressing same idea. I tried to diminish skill rank influence on effect. That is why you see skill progressions like 4-5-6. That leaves some bonus to rank upgrade but not that big one. I don't think rank should be any significant because it is essentially a skill level. I.e. you need skill level 4 to become an expert. Advancing to skill level 4 is much-much more difficult task then buy expert rank. Why would we value that tiny effort with such big difference?

It would be more interesting if rank would be independent of skill level and be granted for some tasks or something more challenging than just paying money. Similar to earning axe master quest. This way player could pursue either absorbing XP to convert them to skill level or chasing these rank quests (or both). That would certainly give game a new angle. And then it would be fair to give so much value to rank.

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Re: MM6 skill emphasis mod

Unread postby tnevolin » May 30 2022, 4:40

raekuul wrote: May 30 2022, 1:04 The game does properly calculate non-whole multipliers in the end, it's just a matter of the game rounding upwards when it needs a whole number result (which is why I still get n.2 fire bolt goblins with a 1.5 damage multiplier) so it still skews upwards at the very low end. Long-term using non-whole numbers will allow for more fine control without having to individually modify monster definitions.

Round it down then. Should be not a problem.
You can even set whatever complex rule to produce whole number you like.

Even though we can use fractional computations, I have learned it is not really needed. There are so many parameters in the game overlapping and adding to each other that any effect can be achieved with just whole numbers. It is not like a chess game requiring absolute perfect balance. If somehow some game area is too tough player will just return there later more prepared. If all the areas are too tough - adjusting monsters' parameters will do the trick.


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