MM7 - WORST team compo?

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d2r
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MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby d2r » Mar 26 2020, 20:27

So, everyone's talked "what's the best MM7 party" to death.

Let's have a bit of fun - what's the worst MM7 party you can come up with?

Just to forestall the inevitable "4 rangers" answer, let's say you have to pick a unique class for each character. Assume that you're picking the worst race for each class (e.g. Goblin Sorc, Elf Knight etc.) but that you still optimally allocate your skill points and equipment (meaning you don't have the knight fight with a staff or anything).

I'm gonna say Dark Path MATR. Elf Monk, Dwarf Archer, Dwarf Thief and Dwarf (Human?) Ranger.

Ninja's master disarm is wasted because there's already a Thief.

Nobody can cast self spells above basic level until the Ranger gets their second promotion, meaning you're going through 50% of the game without reliable ways to cast regeneration or heroism other than the Thief mixing layered potions or the use of a Piper hireling.

Nobody can cast self spells above expert level at all - meaning among other things that there's no way to cure paralysis in the field other than by using scrolls or buying white potions, and no way to raise dead in the field other than as a zombie via "Reanimate".

Nobody can cast dark magic above basic level, meaning no Shrapmetal.

Nobody can master repair so you can't easily repair broken things (although you could just use harden item on everything)

Nobody can cast elemental spells above expert level until the Archer gets their second promotion - and you'll have to get the bow from the Titan Stronghold with neither GM protection from magic (to stop autokill attacks) or invisibility. Unless, of course, you get lucky and find a scroll (or, more likely, save scum for one).

Dark MATR is the most dysfunctional party compo - change my view.
Last edited by d2r on Mar 26 2020, 20:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Kinox » Mar 26 2020, 20:53

Curious and funny topic. I haven't played a looot of MM7, but I know some dynamics in general to tell.

Well I'd take off the Archer (means no Master Elemental Magic),
and I'd put a Knight or a Paladin instead (probably a Knight, because we don't want Master Self Magic).
absence or limitation on Repair Item is annoying indeed, although not that fundamental as you've pointed out: buying/mixing Harden Item Potions; also, if I'm not wrong there are in MM7 too the Hirelings available for 100% equipment Repair (I think there are 3 categories in MM7 as ther is in MM6 right?: Weapons/Armors/Magic Items; so that's an annoying point too, not being able to get all the 3 repairing features at once as the original Repair Skill does).

Also, no need to say that would be a very tanky party… but that would be quite sluggish and really annoying for travelling and exploring (although… again, Hirelings such as Gate Master, Wind Master, Water Master and Cartographer could break that 'curse' quite easily).

As for the races I'd say: Human Knight, Elf Monk/(Paladin), Dwarf Thief, Goblin Ranger

In conclusion, it's a bit hard to create really 'bad' party (especially without repetition of Rangers :tongue: or something like that), coz the game gives the players many tricky options to compensate for classes' limitations.
Last edited by Kinox on Mar 26 2020, 21:12, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby d2r » Mar 26 2020, 21:09

To be fair, even without the Archer, the Ranger can cast elemental magic at expert level (although not Master) once they get their second promotion, but I take your point - I was originally thinking that Knight/Monk would be super effective in melee but having no reliable access to Elemental Magic above Expert level - in fact, no access to ANY magic above basic until you're already halfway done the game - probably outweighs the Knight's boost to raw melee power on the inconvenience level.

One bonus of all the elemental casting being offloaded onto the Ranger is that the bounty quest for the 2nd dark-side promotion is kind of luck-based and therefore could potentially take a couple of in-game years to complete unless you save scum, if you keep drawing enemies who live in regions you can't get to (e.g. Archangel before you commit to the dark path) or ones which only appear in areas you've already cleaned out (e.g. Wights if you've already killed everything in the Barrow Downs and the Haunted House)

EDIT: Re race choices - I'm actually playing the game with KRCS and a Goblin Ranger right now, and it is actually, shockingly enough, quite good - pumping might/speed to 30/30 at chargen makes them deadly early on, Zokarr's Axe, at 3d7+13, is a really good weapon that can arguably last you until very late in the game, and you can just stack a bunch of items on them or use barrels to increase their INT/PERS (although that calculus would obviously change if they were the party's main caster as with MKRT). I'd also note that Human Knight is nowhere near as bad a choice as Elf Knight as the Elf has an actual penalty to Might whereas the Human simply lacks the Goblin's bonus. In general, I'd argue that Humans are never the worst racial choice for any class, although they're rarely the best choice either.
Last edited by d2r on Mar 26 2020, 21:21, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Kinox » Mar 26 2020, 21:22

d2r wrote:To be fair, even without the Archer, the Ranger can cast elemental magic at expert level (although not Master)


Yes, I've got that mistaken. Rangers can get Expert Level in both Magics (Self/Elemental).
The hazardous point, you've pointed out: the Ranger's Dark Path 2nd Promotion; I wasn't very aware of that issue (never played Dark Path Ranger). Sure this counts a lot for 'annoyance level' (at least, to a fair gameplay). For it's like when you're looking for a powerful spell in a spellbook store which has many weeks of reset time, and time after time, you might never get lucky; it can make you lose months of procuring, and so you might have other business to do anyways and has to figure out alternative ways to deal with the challenges without such extra abilities.

So, that's another strong point to take off the Archer in my opinion.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby d2r » Mar 26 2020, 21:29

I think you might be right and that MKTR is probably weaker than MATR, assuming you're taking dark path for both (Light Monk can Expert self magic to take pressure off the Ranger, and the Ranger's 2nd promotion is way easier for Light). Admittedly I have a soft spot for the frustration of not being able to repair things, but that's easier to get around (with harden item and relatively-cheap hirelings) than just plan not being able to cast spells.

Plus if you make both Monk and Knight Elves, and Ranger and Thief Dwarves, it means that the Goblins in Harmondale will all focus on ganking your two weakest and easiest-to-hit characters, which adds to the frustration factor early on. :D
Last edited by d2r on Mar 26 2020, 21:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Kinox » Mar 26 2020, 21:43

Actually, I've assumed that, since one can't repeat Classes in the original proposal, shouldn't be able to repeat Races too.

Otherwise I guess a Knight Elf should be awful as it sounds — especially at start; even though... good Accuracy is relevant at the start too (for both melee and ranged attacks).

If repetition of Races are ok, then I'd propose:
Elf Knight, Elf Monk, Elf/Dwarf Thief, Elf/Dwarf/Human Ranger.
Because this is a very Might-focused party (not Magic-focused), and we want to hinder this Might-focus as much as possible, reducing Might and especially Endurance, at the very start, is quite dangerous! Especially for a party which can't handle Magic very well. What you've got? Rangers or Thieves can't learn Basic Magic before their 1st Promotion I guess.

The problem of course is to think that lots of Elves would make for lots of Accuracy for bow attacks. So they'll tend to maintain distance from the enemies; but one can't do that for too long in the game, right? in Region Maps it's easier than in Dungeon Maps usually.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby d2r » Mar 26 2020, 21:58

I'd argue that Dwarf is a generally poor choice for pretty much any class other than Paladin - Goblins outperform them as Knights, Elves outperform them as Sorcerors, and in general their poor speed and accuracy really hurt early in the game. Plus the fact that the Goblins in Harmondale love to focus-fire them means that they're going to get mauled when it's still early enough in the game that you don't have so many healing or defence options open to you. Having a Dwarf Cleric is especially bad if you don't have any other dwarves in your party, because it means the enemy will consistently be ganking your healer. I learned THAT one the hard way!
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Kinox » Mar 26 2020, 22:20

True.

However, in the early game, I must suggest there is no ABSOLUTELY need to go and fight the Goblins hordes in the Harmondale Region Map; it's relevant to clean Castle Harmondale for progressing the Main Quest though… (but even this could wait a bit if you think alternatively of the game).

The good thing on Dwarves, though, is their Endurance. Technically, Endurance is the most distinctive Stats there is in MM6-8, for each +1 point of Endurance means that you character don't 'adquire' Dead Status. So, in this sense, the most important Stats in the early game is Endurance.

In MM8, I used to use the mod mm8che.exe to make things a bit more challenging: I've made my entire party start with 0 (or 1) Stats points on EVERY single Stats. What hurt the most… was the low Endurance. Your characters basically Die mostly everytime they fall Unconscious (incredibly annoying!), until you've found some good amount of Green Barrels for everyone or you've found some magic items enchanted with Endurance enhancements.
Each single Stats point in Endurance is actually live-saving! Endurance has this special feature in MM6-8 which goes beyond the basic Stats Points gradation table (1,3,5,…,19,21,25,30,etc.).
This is the reason why I'd consider Dwarves in MM7 a very good Race to play with; despite bad Speed and Accuracy; but these hindrances can still be countered by… Haste Spell/Potions? No Armor using for a while, faster attacking items (e.g., Clubs, Daggers); Bless (and, perhaps, Fate) Spell.

Well, of course this is an EXTREEEME condition I've used as an example. :D
But it's interesting, to take into account, this extra value that has the Endurance Stats. If it weren't for this feature (if Endurance simply worked like Intellect and/or Personality for spellcasters) I would think it completely differently. But since MM6-8 has this game design 'unbalance' around the Stats, Dwarves become very special Race in MM7.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Tress » Mar 27 2020, 12:43

Knight Paladin Monk Ranger.
This way there is no GM magic of any kind, very little light magic (even though paralysis can carry game alone), no decent disarm skill . Almost no variation of elemental magic, thus no fly or tp for forseeable time. Healing also is kinda weak since paladin is only one with any decent spellpower.
Wont go into races as they don't really matter too much aside of extra few stat points. There would be decent melee output ,specially for start of game, but there is lot of things that would make this group frustrating in utility department.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby d2r » Mar 27 2020, 20:18

Tress wrote:Knight Paladin Monk Ranger.
This way there is no GM magic of any kind, very little light magic (even though paralysis can carry game alone), no decent disarm skill . Almost no variation of elemental magic, thus no fly or tp for forseeable time. Healing also is kinda weak since paladin is only one with any decent spellpower.
Wont go into races as they don't really matter too much aside of extra few stat points. There would be decent melee output ,specially for start of game, but there is lot of things that would make this group frustrating in utility department.


I'd say this is the worst Light Path party, since for Dark Path the Ninja can get Master disarm and remove a lot of the frustration factor of lategame traps (especially relevant since this group won't be able to cast telekinesis with anything other than a scroll, so they can't just cheese the chests from a distance).

For Dark Path I'd say MKRT so that the Ninja's one real advantage over Master (master disarm skill) is made irrelevant by virtue of having the thief, meaning you lose out on even having Expert magic for the monk and get nothing in return, and so that the only expert-level caster is the late-game Ranger.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby raekuul » Mar 27 2020, 21:52

It's kind of telling that "Worst team compo" boils down to "how much can we restrict magic"

someone send this thread back in time to 1996 for NWC to take a gander at...
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby d2r » Mar 28 2020, 0:47

Yeah, although MM7 is still better than MM6 in terms of giving Might classes a niche (Knights sucked in MM6), I'd argue that the historical problem with the series overall has always been that the early game favours might, whereas the late game favours magic - something like KMRT will slaughter enemies at low levels but will struggle in places like Eeofol where you can't just walk up and smash things. Conversely, that gimmick CSSS build will struggle a lot early on but will dominate by the end of the game thanks to Shrapmetal nuke.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Kinox » Mar 28 2020, 14:50

'The best thing about MM6-8, is you don't send your party to explore an obscure dungeon holding a simple torch…! which by the way would hinder your true ability to obliterate your worst enemies! Instead of that, you cast Torchlight — an unreproducible magical effect in the overall mundane World of Enroth!'

I think examples like this may be the reason why Magic, in MM6-8, is even more so difficult to discharge. :D

Obs: btw, in case someone doesn't know, that first paragraph was a meme/joke from a review that a youtube made of an old tabletop game, Hero Quest… "The best thing about Hero Quest…"
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Pitsu » Mar 29 2020, 15:16

MKTR may be the one which requires the most brainwork from player and luck in game indeed. Archer would add ranged firepower which is always good and has access to most elemental spells. With knight the party is strongly melee, but without support units/spells it will have troubles in many areas.

However, it is good that there are different challenge levels possible. Sometimes the game imbalances are not enough and we do solo or peasant games and still complete it. Part of the fun. Solo ranger gave me no strong memories of exceptional difficulties.

Regarding magic being essential there are IMO just few spells that hugely help. First, while there are items that protect from stoning or diseases, only spells can protect from eradication. Regeneration from items could be stronger/stack. Lloyd is convenient, but not highly necessary and would lose some of its significance if travelschedules are more flexibe or teleporters more common (like Eeofol-Harmondale). Oh, and GM in a weapon skill could give an area damage to every enemy around you.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby mani » Mar 31 2020, 9:05

goblin druid - elf knight - dwarf ranger must be included

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Pitsu » Apr 8 2020, 14:49

Theories are nice, but no theory is good without experimental evidence.

So, elf kinght - elf monk - dwarf thief - human ranger it was. Played in mmmerge, which changes some stuff, but tried to keep true to original MM7 as much as possible.

The emerald isle was pretty much like always for me - bows, day of gods and not much trouble. Upon arriving to the main continent the ranger basically instantly got promoted and picked up Zokarr's axe. Up to about lvl 20 ranger was both in might and magic departments party leader, then knight and a bit later monk surpassed her in might performance. Thief was a loser, but not entirely on his own fault. First, thief promotion is actually very difficult unless you aim for the "reload cheat". For me it was even more unfortunate, since the no vase glitch appeared and thus the thief never got promoted (did not wait area reset or use editing). Second, from the very beginning thief invested into trap disarming and later into alchemy and not so much into weapon/armor skills.

Most difficult moments were the first attempt for thief promotion, school of sorcery for monk II promotion, Robert the wise, entering colony Zod and entering Lincoln. Did not do warlock or lich promotions and some non-essential quests. With Robert I initially tried to owerwhelm him with might (mods had dismissed the stealing skill), but then went with wands as I usually do when soloing. I had a scroll of protection from magic, but was not sure if that is MM7 or merge feature, thus did not use it. First attempt with swift swords and wands combination worked without any casualties on my side. For Colony Zod a windmaster would have been good. Perhaps I would even have cleared the entrance area a bit, but when one needs a windmaster there never is one available. So went to the eeofol with two fly scrolls, and ignored the titans, dragons and devils.When entering Lincoln one is always unusually vulnerable for a moment, and although not everything went exactly as planned, entire party survived and no reloads on that ship were necessary.

Finished with about 2 years 3 months (no gatemaster used) and people around lvl 44-46.

Some further thoughts. As I said I do not remember solo ranger being more difficult than any other solo character that I have tried. This attempt now again implicated that the medicore skills of ranger can come important if the party is not of best quality. This means that if we take one-class parties, then I believe that at least with my playing style 4 rangers would be among the better half of teams. Sure they would not be the most fun, but they can get most things done without taking much risk. The current game was not best evaluation for thieves, but I could imagine that a 4 thief party would recuire lot of drugs (alchemy) and still be in pain.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby raekuul » Apr 8 2020, 15:06

First, thief promotion is actually very difficult unless you aim for the "reload cheat".
Or you do what I do and plan on taking a TPK when getting the urn.

The current game was not best evaluation for thieves, but I could imagine that a 4 thief party would recuire lot of drugs (alchemy) and still be in pain.
Yeah, until MMMerge reinstates the Stealing skill, the biggest advantage that Thieves have in the endgame (which is making the Control Cube quest a complete joke) simply doesn't exist.
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You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby keksua » Apr 10 2020, 7:45

I've recently started new game with solo druid and that's something. He's mediocre at everything, and first promotion quest need to finish priest promotion first, that's a mess!

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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby Pitsu » Apr 10 2020, 8:06

keksua wrote:I've recently started new game with solo druid and that's something. He's mediocre at everything, and first promotion quest need to finish priest promotion first, that's a mess!


Yes, and go with the dark side and do the second promotion... If you pick your fights and use right spells (turn undead, slow, berzerk, rock blast) you can have quite good fun while leveling up and searching for gear.
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Re: MM7 - WORST team compo?

Postby keksua » Apr 10 2020, 21:12

Slow? I've never found any use of this spell.. Why it's any good?


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