Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 29.03.2020]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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raekuul
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby raekuul » Jul 28 2019, 17:19

Bolstering honestly needs to be split into five general components, especially if we want to make it customizable:
  1. Ability Bolster - add new abilities to enemies based on what they do. This seems to be working as intended (with Bolster Enemies on, Harpies in the Frozen Highlands gain a buff spell in addition to replacing Mass Curse with something offensive), and just needs to be a flat on-off.
  2. Health Bolster - increase enemy health based on the bolster percentage. At present, this seems to be overtuned at higher percentages (but honestly someone playing at +200% Bolster is probably accounting for that anyway) but is tolerable at the default setting.
  3. Damage Bolster - increase enemy damage based on the bolster percentage. At present, this is definitely overtuned since both the max random damage and the flat damage bonus are increased (and not by the bolster percentage) - the 200% Bolster rogue shown above on the previous page can take down an unbolstered Wyrm very quickly and has a chance of outright killing it in one hit. Either increase the Number Of Sides On The Dice or increase the Flat Bonus, but don't increase both at once.
  4. Armor Bolster - increase enemy armor class based on the bolster percentage. Definitely overtuned at the moment, as demonstrated by said rogue gaining +60 Armor Class when bolster was set to 5%.
  5. Level Bolster - increase the enemy's level based on the bolster percentage. Since enemy level isn't player-facing at any point I have no idea on if this is overtuned or not as currently implemented. Keep in mind that enemy level factors into how often enemies hit the player characters, apply negative statuses, etc.
I'll study the Adaptive Monsters script to try and figure out how party level plays into it.
Last edited by raekuul on Jul 28 2019, 17:21, edited 3 times in total.
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Maslyonok » Jul 28 2019, 18:02

The problem about the riddles in the Breach is not solvable? I just don’t know how to proceed without solving riddles.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby raekuul » Jul 28 2019, 18:12

If you're giving the correct answers you're making progress. The "You got it right" message seems to have been replaced with the "You got it wrong" message (there are a few other issues with the breach, but that's the most critical one).
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby qtish » Jul 28 2019, 19:42

I would also suggest increase EXP gained from bolstered monster, since it is stronger, and your characters are higher level, meaning they need more exp to level up.

Also MM7 relic seens to be missing - Scholar's Cap (Headgear/Hat).
Last edited by qtish on Jul 28 2019, 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Thonkerton » Jul 29 2019, 5:01

Maslyonok wrote:The problem about the riddles in the Breach is not solvable? I just don’t know how to proceed without solving riddles.

It's a pretty annoying bug that applies currently to all custom text inputs as far as I know. It's about 50/50 chance that the correct answer is considered correct so just keep trying, eventually you'll succeed. I had to do a good 20 houses before I could progress. Weirdly enough playing in smaller window mode can help you see the response better or it actually changes the behavior (I doubt that).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jul 29 2019, 12:02

raekuul wrote:Bolstering honestly needs to be split into five general components, especially if we want to make it customizable:
  1. Ability Bolster - add new abilities to enemies based on what they do. This seems to be working as intended (with Bolster Enemies on, Harpies in the Frozen Highlands gain a buff spell in addition to replacing Mass Curse with something offensive), and just needs to be a flat on-off.
  2. Health Bolster - increase enemy health based on the bolster percentage. At present, this seems to be overtuned at higher percentages (but honestly someone playing at +200% Bolster is probably accounting for that anyway) but is tolerable at the default setting.
  3. Damage Bolster - increase enemy damage based on the bolster percentage. At present, this is definitely overtuned since both the max random damage and the flat damage bonus are increased (and not by the bolster percentage) - the 200% Bolster rogue shown above on the previous page can take down an unbolstered Wyrm very quickly and has a chance of outright killing it in one hit. Either increase the Number Of Sides On The Dice or increase the Flat Bonus, but don't increase both at once.
  4. Armor Bolster - increase enemy armor class based on the bolster percentage. Definitely overtuned at the moment, as demonstrated by said rogue gaining +60 Armor Class when bolster was set to 5%.
  5. Level Bolster - increase the enemy's level based on the bolster percentage. Since enemy level isn't player-facing at any point I have no idea on if this is overtuned or not as currently implemented. Keep in mind that enemy level factors into how often enemies hit the player characters, apply negative statuses, etc.
I'll study the Adaptive Monsters script to try and figure out how party level plays into it.

Snazzy, nice. Added to the Suggestion Tracker under Monster Bolster Modifications.
I sense a Major Contribution Credit if this gets implemented!

raekuul wrote:If you're giving the correct answers you're making progress. The "You got it right" message seems to have been replaced with the "You got it wrong" message (there are a few other issues with the breach, but that's the most critical one).

Added to the Bug Tracker. A critical error indeed. But if someone knows about it, it is possible to circumvent it by using the correct answers and not heeding the message. Thanks for telling us.

qtish wrote:I would also suggest increase EXP gained from bolstered monster, since it is stronger, and your characters are higher level, meaning they need more exp to level up.

Also MM7 relic seens to be missing - Scholar's Cap (Headgear/Hat).

Actually this has been discussed here before many times. Raising EXP with monster bolstering is a bad idea.

"Rodril: Purpose of bolster is preventing game to become walk in the park after completing one continent. Additional experience will transform bolster into vicious machine: higher level party got, faster they get new one, i don't like this."

I.e. you would be creating a balancing nightmare.

As in you found it in-game and it doesn't have a sprite? Where, if that is the case?
Anyway, artifact and relic headgear has not been painted. Also I was missing the Scholar's Cap and Hero's Belt on the Paint Tracker, so I have added them there.

Thonkerton wrote:
Maslyonok wrote:The problem about the riddles in the Breach is not solvable? I just don’t know how to proceed without solving riddles.

It's a pretty annoying bug that applies currently to all custom text inputs as far as I know. It's about 50/50 chance that the correct answer is considered correct so just keep trying, eventually you'll succeed. I had to do a good 20 houses before I could progress. Weirdly enough playing in smaller window mode can help you see the response better or it actually changes the behavior (I doubt that).

You should read what raekuul wrote.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Maslyonok » Jul 29 2019, 16:01

Thonkerton wrote:It's a pretty annoying bug that applies currently to all custom text inputs as far as I know. It's about 50/50 chance that the correct answer is considered correct so just keep trying, eventually you'll succeed. I had to do a good 20 houses before I could progress. Weirdly enough playing in smaller window mode can help you see the response better or it actually changes the behavior (I doubt that).


raekuul wrote:If you're giving the correct answers you're making progress. The "You got it right" message seems to have been replaced with the "You got it wrong" message (there are a few other issues with the breach, but that's the most critical one).


Thanks a lot! I had to visit ~100 houses, but this little fu- I mean, Runaway Chaos has finally appeared.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Maslyonok » Jul 29 2019, 16:27

It's done! :D The major translation part is finished. Now I can start improving other details.
RU_1.0
I also can upload the change list, if you ask.

It turns out that the game ends with the "repair" of the Breach and return to the past? Verdant sees me for the first time. NG+ ?

I see SUBTIERS OF ITEMS in MMMerge Tracker... and it's need to be correctly translated too! Some more work for me :-D

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby qtish » Jul 29 2019, 17:17

Templayer wrote:
qtish wrote:I would also suggest increase EXP gained from bolstered monster, since it is stronger, and your characters are higher level, meaning they need more exp to level up.

Also MM7 relic seens to be missing - Scholar's Cap (Headgear/Hat).

Actually this has been discussed here before many times. Raising EXP with monster bolstering is a bad idea.

"Rodril: Purpose of bolster is preventing game to become walk in the park after completing one continent. Additional experience will transform bolster into vicious machine: higher level party got, faster they get new one, i don't like this."

I.e. you would be creating a balancing nightmare..

Have you seen amount of exp needed at lvl 100, or 150? Its hundreds of thousands. Exp grows in almost like geometrical progression. I see no disbalance making +200% bolster monsters giving +200% exp.
https://gyazo.com/0059f19d5335634f6ff2a441ae33c7b5
Last edited by qtish on Jul 29 2019, 17:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jul 29 2019, 17:55

qtish wrote:
Templayer wrote:
qtish wrote:I would also suggest increase EXP gained from bolstered monster, since it is stronger, and your characters are higher level, meaning they need more exp to level up.

Also MM7 relic seens to be missing - Scholar's Cap (Headgear/Hat).

Actually this has been discussed here before many times. Raising EXP with monster bolstering is a bad idea.

"Rodril: Purpose of bolster is preventing game to become walk in the park after completing one continent. Additional experience will transform bolster into vicious machine: higher level party got, faster they get new one, i don't like this."

I.e. you would be creating a balancing nightmare..

Have you seen amount of exp needed at lvl 100, or 150? Its hundreds of thousands. Exp grows in almost like geometrical progression. I see no disbalance making +200% bolster monsters giving +200% exp.
https://gyazo.com/0059f19d5335634f6ff2a441ae33c7b5

Yeah, that is fairly normal. I got to 110 without even trying, in VANILLA MM8. (well, vanilla with custom party, that is. I made a Necromancer Dark Elf :D)
Image

But if you manage to balance it enough, we can include it in the project. Please notify me when you are done.
Last edited by Templayer on Jul 29 2019, 17:56, edited 1 time in total.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby andrey » Jul 29 2019, 18:14

Thanks for this amazing work! Looking forward to any updates.

I just started and encountered a lot of crashes when interacting with chests:
- I cannot put anything from my inventory to a chest (tried on DWI and Emeral Isles). Game crashes immediately when I select my own item.
- Look in the chest, select any item, press "close" when item is selected. Result: game crashes (cannot reproduce 100% of time, perhaps there are additional conditions).
There are definitely more scenarios, I have to save before every chest, half of the time they crash when shuffling the things.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby LordInsane » Jul 29 2019, 18:22

Could someone point me to all relevant files for adding new classes to the Merge? I've tried looking over the Merge archive, but I'm worried I missed something - I have a notion of a submod to increase MM8's consistency with 6/7 by moving Jadame to two-tier promotion, but while that could be done without adding new classes for the (in MM8) human classes (Necromancer could either be bumped up to second with Sorcerer as the first, or remain first with Master Necromancer re-purposed as second), the racial classes would need new tiers, and I'm not sure how much beyond me such a project would be.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby raekuul » Jul 29 2019, 18:29

qtish wrote:I would also suggest increase EXP gained from bolstered monster, since it is stronger, and your characters are higher level, meaning they need more exp to level up.
As has been stated, balancing bolstered rewards is trickier, especially since not everybody is going to start from the same continent - a bolstered Enroth would be far more profitable EXP-wise than a bolstered Jadame, for example. While I agree that EXP should be bolstered, it should be bolstered proportionate to the monster's new capabilities in order to minimize abuse, and before I would go that far I'd want to organize the monsters into difficulty groups so that I have a rough idea of who should be fighting what and when.

I freely admit to time traveling in order to get around beef gates - I did as much to get Dyson Leylines up from 15 to party average before resuming the Jadame quest by... full clearing a few Enroth dungeons (which is what led to the "Bolster Isn't Working Right" post in the first place).

@LordInsane: I think but am not sure that the current plan is to split race from class entirely. I do know that I want to see class split from continent - I want to start in Enroth with a Necromancer and a Thief, but can't because continent.
Last edited by raekuul on Jul 29 2019, 18:30, edited 2 times in total.
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby LordInsane » Jul 29 2019, 18:55

raekuul wrote:@LordInsane: I think but am not sure that the current plan is to split race from class entirely. I do know that I want to see class split from continent - I want to start in Enroth with a Necromancer and a Thief, but can't because continent.

My own general preference is that dragons remain with their own class (I feel that they are a special case, and would want to avoid them being balanced as if they are a starting option) with racial classes otherwise deprecated, but I feel that to do so properly would require a more intricate Racial Skills system, something I know is well beyond my ability (for one thing it would require art) if it is even possible, and perhaps the inclusion of new 'generalized' classes, so 'just' making Jadame two-step seemed a good first step (and it would not be redundant work since promotion quests could be re-purposed for other classes - Dark Elf Hero/Dark Elf Patriarch for Battle Mage/Warrior Mage, for example - and the human classes would still have the removal of jumping a tier). I agree on not wanting classes to be as based on continents - there is the Character Creation Unlocker, but as my dragon comment suggests I feel it goes a bit too far to be default.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jul 29 2019, 19:41

andrey wrote:Thanks for this amazing work! Looking forward to any updates.

I just started and encountered a lot of crashes when interacting with chests:
- I cannot put anything from my inventory to a chest (tried on DWI and Emeral Isles). Game crashes immediately when I select my own item.
- Look in the chest, select any item, press "close" when item is selected. Result: game crashes (cannot reproduce 100% of time, perhaps there are additional conditions).
There are definitely more scenarios, I have to save before every chest, half of the time they crash when shuffling the things.

This has happened to ONE person so far except you, and for that person it was for a bunch of chests located in the same spot, and the problem was gone after a while.

Did you install the mod correctly?

LordInsane wrote:Could someone point me to all relevant files for adding new classes to the Merge? I've tried looking over the Merge archive, but I'm worried I missed something - I have a notion of a submod to increase MM8's consistency with 6/7 by moving Jadame to two-tier promotion, but while that could be done without adding new classes for the (in MM8) human classes (Necromancer could either be bumped up to second with Sorcerer as the first, or remain first with Master Necromancer re-purposed as second), the racial classes would need new tiers, and I'm not sure how much beyond me such a project would be.

Please remember that doing so would require coding on your part - you would have to change the current way NPCs promote your characters, etc. Especially the completely new racial ones.

raekuul wrote:
qtish wrote:I would also suggest increase EXP gained from bolstered monster, since it is stronger, and your characters are higher level, meaning they need more exp to level up.
As has been stated, balancing bolstered rewards is trickier, especially since not everybody is going to start from the same continent - a bolstered Enroth would be far more profitable EXP-wise than a bolstered Jadame, for example. While I agree that EXP should be bolstered, it should be bolstered proportionate to the monster's new capabilities in order to minimize abuse, and before I would go that far I'd want to organize the monsters into difficulty groups so that I have a rough idea of who should be fighting what and when.

I freely admit to time traveling in order to get around beef gates - I did as much to get Dyson Leylines up from 15 to party average before resuming the Jadame quest by... full clearing a few Enroth dungeons (which is what led to the "Bolster Isn't Working Right" post in the first place).

@LordInsane: I think but am not sure that the current plan is to split race from class entirely. I do know that I want to see class split from continent - I want to start in Enroth with a Necromancer and a Thief, but can't because continent.

You can start in Enroth with a Necromancer and a Thief. Just use the Character Creation Unlocker at the Tracker.

LordInsane wrote:
raekuul wrote:@LordInsane: I think but am not sure that the current plan is to split race from class entirely. I do know that I want to see class split from continent - I want to start in Enroth with a Necromancer and a Thief, but can't because continent.

My own general preference is that dragons remain with their own class (I feel that they are a special case, and would want to avoid them being balanced as if they are a starting option) with racial classes otherwise deprecated, but I feel that to do so properly would require a more intricate Racial Skills system, something I know is well beyond my ability (for one thing it would require art) if it is even possible, and perhaps the inclusion of new 'generalized' classes, so 'just' making Jadame two-step seemed a good first step (and it would not be redundant work since promotion quests could be re-purposed for other classes - Dark Elf Hero/Dark Elf Patriarch for Battle Mage/Warrior Mage, for example - and the human classes would still have the removal of jumping a tier). I agree on not wanting classes to be as based on continents - there is the Character Creation Unlocker, but as my dragon comment suggests I feel it goes a bit too far to be default.

I made a modification for the Racial Skills that renders the Racial Classes obsolete. It's on the Tracker.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby LordInsane » Jul 29 2019, 20:20

Templayer wrote:
LordInsane wrote:Could someone point me to all relevant files for adding new classes to the Merge? I've tried looking over the Merge archive, but I'm worried I missed something - I have a notion of a submod to increase MM8's consistency with 6/7 by moving Jadame to two-tier promotion, but while that could be done without adding new classes for the (in MM8) human classes (Necromancer could either be bumped up to second with Sorcerer as the first, or remain first with Master Necromancer re-purposed as second), the racial classes would need new tiers, and I'm not sure how much beyond me such a project would be.

Please remember that doing so would require coding on your part - you would have to change the current way NPCs promote your characters, etc. Especially the completely new racial ones.

Ah well. It was nice to dream while it lasted.
Templayer wrote:
LordInsane wrote:My own general preference is that dragons remain with their own class (I feel that they are a special case, and would want to avoid them being balanced as if they are a starting option) with racial classes otherwise deprecated, but I feel that to do so properly would require a more intricate Racial Skills system, something I know is well beyond my ability (for one thing it would require art) if it is even possible, and perhaps the inclusion of new 'generalized' classes, so 'just' making Jadame two-step seemed a good first step (and it would not be redundant work since promotion quests could be re-purposed for other classes - Dark Elf Hero/Dark Elf Patriarch for Battle Mage/Warrior Mage, for example - and the human classes would still have the removal of jumping a tier). I agree on not wanting classes to be as based on continents - there is the Character Creation Unlocker, but as my dragon comment suggests I feel it goes a bit too far to be default.

I made a modification for the Racial Skills that renders the Racial Classes obsolete. It's on the Tracker.

I know. It is good, and definitely something I use and appreciate, it is just that I dream of something less based on giving races skill tier training increases in specific non-Racial skills (hence the "for one thing it would require art" bit), something like the comment on the Tracker by the More Racial Skills suggestion.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jul 29 2019, 20:47

LordInsane wrote:I know. It is good, and definitely something I use and appreciate, it is just that I dream of something less based on giving races skill tier training increases in specific non-Racial skills (hence the "for one thing it would require art" bit), something like the comment on the Tracker by the More Racial Skills suggestion.

Elaborate and I might do it.

Also please be aware that Meditation might be needed still, since it is more bound to the racial ability - you need to have mana to be able to use "racial spells".
I.e. a Dark Elf Knight wouldn't be viable for Dark Elf Ability spells without it.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby andrey » Jul 29 2019, 21:27

Templayer wrote:This has happened to ONE person so far except you, and for that person it was for a bunch of chests located in the same spot, and the problem was gone after a while.

Did you install the mod correctly?


I reinstalled from scratch, and tested chests after every installation/configuration step. It seems, problem is consistently reproduced when I switch to software 3D. Hardware 3D - no problem (even if returning old interface layout).

Another bug, very minor:
Load, let's say, a save in Jadame -> Press escape -> New game -> will start in Jadame without asking the continent

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby qtish » Jul 29 2019, 21:47

Templayer wrote:
qtish wrote:
Templayer wrote:

With how broken bolster monster options right now is - when it gives +200%hp, +200-1200%damage, +200+% armor class, overall monster bolster is like 1000-2000% depending on a monster type. So I see nothing wrong to make bolster monster % related to higher exp gained.
With more exp you need more gold to train. But you already addressed that, by giving monster a chance to give random items upon looting. With that featured added, I started gaining a lot of extra gold.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby LordInsane » Jul 29 2019, 22:58

Templayer wrote:
LordInsane wrote:I know. It is good, and definitely something I use and appreciate, it is just that I dream of something less based on giving races skill tier training increases in specific non-Racial skills (hence the "for one thing it would require art" bit), something like the comment on the Tracker by the More Racial Skills suggestion.

Elaborate and I might do it.

Also please be aware that Meditation might be needed still, since it is more bound to the racial ability - you need to have mana to be able to use "racial spells".
I.e. a Dark Elf Knight wouldn't be viable for Dark Elf Ability spells without it.

I wish to preface this with my recognition if it being, especially in part, unrealistic, and perhaps impossible. The issue with non-racial skills provided by race, additive or highest only, is that it pushes races away from certain classes more than just the stat differences, but it is better than race-as-class (with, in my opinion, the exception of dragons).
Every race (dragons as a contingency for Character Creation Unlocker users) except for humans and goblins have one Racial Skill associated with them, which they can train to Grandmaster. For Dark Elves, Vampires and Dragons that is obviously their currently existing skill, for Trolls that is Regeneration (which I do not think is something any other race or class needs), and Minotaurs, Elves and Dwarves need new skills (the comment I referred to leads me to think this is not impossible if one can code?). Humans and Goblins I imagine as having a flexibility ability: pick one of the skills their class can learn unpromoted, and be able to train it one tier higher (so a Human Druid could pick to be able to gain Grandmaster Fire at Archdruid/Warlock, a Goblin Knight could reach Master Merchant, etc.). Elven Ability I think would be exactly the same as Dark Elven Ability up to and including Blind - Grandmaster might be Feyfire (Light/Fire like Darkfire is Dark/Fire) - and the suggestion of Magic Resilience fits very well for Dwarves (a skill to add to magic resistances). Conceptualization-wise Minotaurs are harder, especially given that their gear limitation justifies a stronger racial ability, but MM7 doesn't provide much non-broken inspiration, and MM6 mostly suggests a stronger version of Dwarven Magic Resilience.

Meditation would not have been a problem at all if Racial Skills were implemented as highest only instead of additive, as you complain about in the Racial Skills readme (so far as I can tell, ignoring racial classes the only two classes to have some magic schools but not even basic Meditation are Thief's promotions and Monk and its promotions). Perhaps that will be changed in a future version of the Merge?


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