Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 16 2019, 8:04

toreadorlelder wrote:Problem in the Breach. Had a 5 char party; found 3 of the 4 (at places noted earlier in the thread) but can't find #5. Telelocator suggest "Old Loeb's Cave"...but I've checked the entire map, as much as I can...the reflecting thing is a royal PITA. Haven't figured out how to get into the fortress in the middle, or any of the towers in the SW corner.

SpectralDragon / GDSpectra has added that to the Bug Tracker. :)
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Crusader_bin » Jun 16 2019, 9:59

Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us :) Eating, sleeping... It'd become a lich IRL myself.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 10:17

Crusader_bin wrote:Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us :) Eating, sleeping... It'd become a lich IRL myself.

Well, everywhere is mentioned that Liches look either like desiccated corpses at least (look at D&D's baelorns or better, Dark Messiah's Liches that are basically more "corpse" than "skeleton" as if Ubi decided to make it more prominent to the original meaning of the word "lich" itself, which basically means "corpse" in old English and even in other languages like Croatian/Serbian - pronounced as "leš/lesh" - and German - pronounced as "Leiche") or skeletons at most, depending on their overall age and how they care for their physical remains. MM decided to go "skeleton" route, but I can imagine that zombie bodies are just as viable, even if it takes a shorter time for them to decompose ... ha ha ha ha ha! :D
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 16 2019, 10:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 16 2019, 10:44

Crusader_bin wrote:Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us :) Eating, sleeping... It'd become a lich IRL myself.


Archibald mentions in MM7 that if not for Kastore's interference, he and his scientifically-oriented necromancers would have soon discovered "a way to keep the body from decaying after the Ritual of Endless Night". That would be quite an amazing milestone, being able to live eternally with no drawbacks or being called a monster etc. But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic. Liches on the other hand keep all of their mental faculties from when they were alive, which is the result of the ritual. The only way to suspend one's disbelief and have a zombie-like lich would be if the ritual somehow failed to have the body decay completely. But going from a mindless, decaying zombie to a lich? Not much intelligence left there to salvage :D

PS: I wouldn't mind in the least a long and protracted questline from the exiled Archibald that would serve this particular end. Upon completion, being promoted to lich would no longer change the character's portrait and paperdoll. Though I guess people actually like traditional liches and an option to have them would be desirable. Not to mention that we still have the Master Necromancer class that could serve as a good way to keep the original portrait (if only it were possible to get on Jadamean necromancers!)

SpectralDragon wrote:Well, everywhere is mentioned that Liches look either like desiccated corpses at least (look at D&D's baelorns or better, Dark Messiah's Liches that are basically more "corpse" than "skeleton" as if Ubi decided to make it more prominent to the original meaning of the word "lich" itself, which basically means "corpse" in old English and even in other languages like Croatian/Serbian - pronounced as "leš/lesh" - and German - pronounced as "Leiche") or skeletons at most, depending on their overall age and how they care for their physical remains. MM decided to go "skeleton" route, but I can imagine that zombie bodies are just as viable, even if it takes a shorter time for them to decompose ... ha ha ha ha ha! :D


No need to go as far as Croatian. The closest languages to English (apart from the little-spoken Frisian) are definitely the Scandinavian languages, and there "lik" is the word for corpse. That's an even closer sounding cognate than the german "Leiche".

Anyway, what it all boils down to is that liches are not lesser undead like zombies, skeletons or wights. Nor are they "undead minions". They are greater undead, fully sentient, and they have agendas of their own, full agency and high intelligence. Not to mention minions of their own :P
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 16 2019, 10:53, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 10:57

Xfing wrote:Archibald mentions in MM7 that if not for Kastore's interference, he and his scientifically-oriented necromancers would have soon discovered "a way to keep the body from decaying after the Ritual of Endless Night". That would be quite an amazing milestone, being able to live eternally with no drawbacks or being called a monster etc. But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic. Liches on the other hand keep all of their mental faculties from when they were alive, which is the result of the ritual. The only way to suspend one's disbelief and have a zombie-like lich would be if the ritual somehow failed to have the body decay completely. But going from a mindless, decaying zombie to a lich? Not much intelligence left there to salvage :D

No need to go as far as Croatian. The closest languages to English (apart from the little-spoken Frisian) are definitely the Scandinavian languages, and there "lik" is the word for corpse. That's an even closer sounding cognate than the german "Leiche".

Anyway, what it all boils down to is that liches are not lesser undead like zombies, skeletons or wights. Nor are they "undead minions". They are greater undead, fully sentient, and they have agendas of their own, full agency and high intelligence. Not to mention minions of their own :P

Well, we actually have one case of a failed Ritual of the Endless Night and that's Lich King Gryphonheart, so could be possible. Question how often would that happen though (the incomplete-decay one). Hmmmm ...

"lik". I love Scandinavian. xD
Why do you think I'm arguing with Templayer whenever or not zombified Liches would come as Ghosts instead of Bare Skeletons? :P Even if that would cause quite a jarring effect when it comes to paperdoll armors on them and whatnot.
It's mainly because Ghosts are straddling a weird grey zone between "lesser" and "greater" undead and can either be wicked or good, as shown in MM6 of all places. But well, until all these disputes will be cleared I'll withhold from doing stuff like this to other undead. I don't need even more work I've already got (Trolls!).
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 16 2019, 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby GrayFace » Jun 16 2019, 11:01

SpectralDragon wrote: :devious: Which reminds me, since Dragons become Ghost Dragons if you zombify them in-game due to Zombie Dragons not being a thing in MM lore, what happens if you try to zombify a Lich or a Vampire? My answer: Ghost Liches and Ghost Vampires! :D :D :D

There's no "zombification" spell in MM games. The spells that zombify living characters would just reanimate undead.

Speaking of breaking the lore, zombies in MM7 break it in a huge way. Imagine if zombies could be just brought back to life like they are in good temples in MM7!

Crusader_bin wrote:I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to.

They only need some pieces of body in a lich jar, the rest can be kept intact. So yes, a lich with zombie-like body might be possible.

SpectralDragon wrote:or skeletons at most

No, at most they're skeleton heads, demiliches. They have gems inserted into them instead of keeping a jar with pluck.

Xfing wrote:But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic.

That quote from some NWC employee shows they do have mind of their own, they are sentient, but not much.
Last edited by GrayFace on Jun 16 2019, 11:13, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 16 2019, 11:06

SpectralDragon wrote:Well, we actually have one case of a failed Ritual of the Endless Night and that's Lich King Gryphonheart, so could be possible. Question how often would that happen though (the incomplete-decay one). Hmmmm ...


I don't think Gryphonheart's ritual failed. I would argue it was actually too successful :P

"lik". I love Scandinavian. xD
Why do you think I'm arguing with Templayer whenever or not zombified Liches would come as Ghosts instead of Bare Skeletons? :P Even if that would cause quite a jarring effect when it comes to paperdoll armors on them and whatnot.


Well the truth is, it doesn't matter what you do for the Unlocker, as suspension of disbelief automatically goes out the window once it's used in the first place. It's meant to allow any combination, even those that would never realistically happen (such as the troll zombie lich for example, because why not :D). I'm talking here in terms of the base game though. Mino liches could realistically happen, because it's conceivable that a Minotaur spellcaster could be seduced to necromancy and dark magic. But zombie liches - not really. A zombie lich is like a janitor CEO - can't be something lowly and great at the same time.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 11:14

GrayFace wrote:There's no "zombification" spell in MM games. The spells that zombify living characters would just reanimate undead (at least the dark temples surely would).

Speaking of breaking the lore, zombies in MM7 break it in a huge way. Imagine if zombies could be just brought back to life like they are in good temples in MM7!

They only need some pieces of body in a lich jar, the rest can be kept intact. So yes, a lich with zombie-like body might be possible.

No, at most they're skeleton heads, demiliches. They have gems inserted into them instead of keeping a jar with pluck.

I meant "zombifying" as in healing them in Evil-aligned temples there, sorry for the misunderstanding. ^^;

LOL! Even more evidence that nothing is what it seems when comparing Heroes games and MM games much? That aside, I love this because this opens a whole new slew of possibilities, even if they shatter themselves, he he he! ;)

I was looking at MM lore for that one, as we don't know about any demiliches in there. In D&D lore, I managed to go as far as going even past demilich and right into Akalich territory, which is basically like a shade of a Lich with only soul gems remaining ... and they're almost omnipresently powerful as a result of that. Creepy stuff! O.O
Xfing wrote:I don't think Gryphonheart's ritual failed. I would argue it was actually too successful :P

Well the truth is, it doesn't matter what you do for the Unlocker, as suspension of disbelief automatically goes out the window once it's used in the first place. It's meant to allow any combination, even those that would never realistically happen (such as the troll zombie lich for example, because why not :D). I'm talking here in terms of the base game though. Mino liches could realistically happen, because it's conceivable that a Minotaur spellcaster could be seduced to necromancy and dark magic. But zombie liches - not really. A zombie lich is like a janitor CEO - can't be something lowly and great at the same time.

Point taken. I'm arguing stuff for both Unlocker and base game though, so yeah. ^^;
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby GrayFace » Jun 16 2019, 11:21

Xfing wrote:A zombie lich is like a janitor CEO - can't be something lowly and great at the same time.

Entrepreneurs doing janitor work at their small businesses do exist.

SpectralDragon wrote:I meant "zombifying" as in healing them in Evil-aligned temples there, sorry for the misunderstanding. ^^;

No, it's not about what you meant, there's just nothing that could possibly "zombify" an undead in the games. Dracolich or lich would just get reanimated, good as new.
Last edited by GrayFace on Jun 16 2019, 11:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 16 2019, 11:21

SpectralDragon wrote:[
LOL! Even more evidence that nothing is what it seems when comparing Heroes games and MM games much? That aside, I love this because this opens a whole new slew of possibilities, even if they shatter themselves, he he he! ;)


Even in the Enroth era, the MM and HoMM games were made by separate teams with rather restricted communication between them. Lore inconsistencies were inevitable. But they did keep some things consistent at least, such as the portrayal of the lich :P

I was looking at MM lore for that one, as we don't know about any demiliches in there. In D&D lore, I managed to go as far as going even past demilich and right into Akalich territory, which is basically like a shade of a Lich with only soul gems remaining ... and they're almost omnipresently powerful as a result of that. Creepy stuff! O.O


I think the early, DOS-era games had what could be called "demiliches", as in liches depicted as large floating skulls with no bodies.

Point taken. I'm arguing stuff for both Unlocker and base game though, so yeah. ^^;


It's great you're on a roll and eager to do more stuff. In this case, might I suggest you try repainting one of the armors or cloaks or equipment overall? I think that's stuff that everyone wants to see, regardless of whether or not they want to play with the unlocker. Hell, I'd do it myself if I was any good at it, so anxious am I to see this stuff in the game already >_>

Speaking of helping - I've noticed that Rodril hasn't gotten around to changing redundant item flavor text and some of the names yet. Where is this data stored? Can this be accessed via MMArchive? I would be happy to make those changes myself.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 16 2019, 11:22

GrayFace wrote:Entrepreneurs doing janitor work at their small businesses do exist.


Sure. But you never see a CEO promoted directly from a janitor :P

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 16 2019, 11:52

Xfing wrote:Archibald mentions in MM7 that if not for Kastore's interference, he and his scientifically-oriented necromancers would have soon discovered "a way to keep the body from decaying after the Ritual of Endless Night". That would be quite an amazing milestone, being able to live eternally with no drawbacks or being called a monster etc. But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic. Liches on the other hand keep all of their mental faculties from when they were alive, which is the result of the ritual. The only way to suspend one's disbelief and have a zombie-like lich would be if the ritual somehow failed to have the body decay completely. But going from a mindless, decaying zombie to a lich? Not much intelligence left there to salvage :D

You still haven't checked the audio voice files for Zombies in MM games, did you? Zombies are not that stupid. They are smarter than trolls. I hate repeating myself.

SpectralDragon wrote:
Crusader_bin wrote:Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us :) Eating, sleeping... It'd become a lich IRL myself.

Well, everywhere is mentioned that Liches look either like desiccated corpses at least (look at D&D's baelorns or better, Dark Messiah's Liches that are basically more "corpse" than "skeleton" as if Ubi decided to make it more prominent to the original meaning of the word "lich" itself, which basically means "corpse" in old English and even in other languages like Croatian/Serbian - pronounced as "leš/lesh" - and German - pronounced as "Leiche") or skeletons at most, depending on their overall age and how they care for their physical remains. MM decided to go "skeleton" route, but I can imagine that zombie bodies are just as viable, even if it takes a shorter time for them to decompose ... ha ha ha ha ha! :D


Also there is an actual Zombie Death Knight hero that is canon.
https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Straker
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 11:55

GrayFace wrote:No, it's not about what you meant, there's just nothing that could possibly "zombify" an undead in the games. Dracolich or lich would just get reanimated, good as new.

Got it. Thanks for making this much easier on me, I really mean it. :)
Xfing wrote:I think the early, DOS-era games had what could be called "demiliches", as in liches depicted as large floating skulls with no bodies.

It's great you're on a roll and eager to do more stuff. In this case, might I suggest you try repainting one of the armors or cloaks or equipment overall? I think that's stuff that everyone wants to see, regardless of whether or not they want to play with the unlocker. Hell, I'd do it myself if I was any good at it, so anxious am I to see this stuff in the game already >_>

Speaking of helping - I've noticed that Rodril hasn't gotten around to changing redundant item flavor text and some of the names yet. Where is this data stored? Can this be accessed via MMArchive? I would be happy to make those changes myself.

Shame those games don't take place in Enroth though, since well, demiliches as playable characters ... how awesome would that be?! :D :D

Trouble is I'll first need to bust open actual MM6 and MM7 games for missing equipment assets and then have appropriate paperdolls for MM8 equipment, so that I could warp transform the missing assets to them via GIMP. Sure, it might be easy for coders and whatnot, but not as easy for a total noob like myself, even with assistance of GrayFace's little video of transforming MM6 paperdolls into MM8 ones using Warp Transform. If you wish, I can link you these, GrayFace made a playlist of them.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 16 2019, 11:57

Xfing wrote:
GrayFace wrote:Entrepreneurs doing janitor work at their small businesses do exist.


Sure. But you never see a CEO promoted directly from a janitor :P

Never say never. What if it is a cleaning company?
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 16 2019, 11:59

SpectralDragon wrote:Trouble is I'll first need to bust open actual MM6 and MM7 games for missing equipment assets and then have appropriate paperdolls for MM8 equipment, so that I could warp transform the missing assets to them via GIMP. Sure, it might be easy for coders and whatnot, but not as easy for a total noob like myself, even with assistance of GrayFace's little video of transforming MM6 paperdolls into MM8 ones using Warp Transform. If you wish, I can link you these, GrayFace made a playlist of them.

justl wanted that link and I referred him to you, quoting you an all - did you send him that link? could you add that link into an article on how to do the repaints on the tutorial tracker?
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 12:16

Templayer wrote:I just wanted that link and I referred him to you, quoting you an all - did you send him that link? could you add that link into an article on how to do the repaints on the tutorial tracker?

That's the thing: it's not repainting stuff, it's adjusting stuff to fit to MM8 paperdolls. Repainting already existing stuff into something new and readjusting already existing stuff into new forms are 2 completely different things. :/

Nonetheless here's the link to GrayFace's playlist. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... ZSpxcYCLfG
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 12:41

All of this aside, at least when it comes to me, I'll await Rodril's updates (or rather any dev's updates) first because we already have plenty of stuff to dabble in, like 2 new bugs, quite a bit of stuff to implement or we think are good to implement and Ancients know what else. I don't know about you guys, but personally I don't wish to make Rodril overworked as much as a I wouldn't wish to be overworked as well. I'm on a break after all, remember?
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 16 2019, 13:07

Templayer wrote:You still haven't checked the audio voice files for Zombies in MM games, did you? Zombies are not that stupid. They are smarter than trolls. I hate repeating myself.


I suspect that might have something to do with the fact that they're basically just lich voices pitch shifted down, which was probably done due to time constraints by the devs? Seriously, you need to look at out-of-universe factors too. I can't believe you're suggesting that the recycled voice matters more than the 99% reduced intellect and personality effect, not to mention the halved accuracy and speed. Zombies were clearly meant by the devs to be as stupid and expressionless as physically possible.

Image

Smarter than Trolls? Not in a million years.

Also, it's not like you have to "repeat yourself" because you weren't heard last time. Maybe your argument just wasn't accepted as valid.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 16 2019, 14:26

Xfire wrote:*poke*

justl wrote:*pokepoke*

You wish to try your hand on adjusting equipment? Check this playlist of GrayFace's that shows how to adjust MM6 paperdolls to MM8 ones (same concept applies to armors and apparel. All we need are missing headgear textures and like 5-7 different MM8 paperdolls to fit them into aka Human Male, Human Female, Minotaur, Troll/s, Dwarf Male and Dwarf Female). Your help will be VERY appreciated.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB ... ZSpxcYCLfG
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 16 2019, 14:46, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby tinywhitecat » Jun 16 2019, 16:15

toreadorlelder wrote:Problem in the Breach. Had a 5 char party; found 3 of the 4 (at places noted earlier in the thread) but can't find #5. Telelocator suggest "Old Loeb's Cave"...but I've checked the entire map, as much as I can...the reflecting thing is a royal PITA. Haven't figured out how to get into the fortress in the middle, or any of the towers in the SW corner.


The companions are in the following locations:
Alvar Merchant Guild
Ogre Fortress
Castle Ironfist
Walking around as an npc on top of the SW towers.

Access the central structure by entering the Dark Dwarf Compound. There is also something to do with the riddles, I don't know if they are required to answer.


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