Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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justl
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.02.2019]

Postby justl » Feb 24 2019, 9:00

Xfing wrote:Alice Hargreaves joined my NPCs once talking to her at Charles Quixote's Erathia residence. There are 3 hireable slots now (which is a bit OP - I've got two Bankers and an Instructor). I think they should be reduced to 2, as in vanilla.


are you refering to hirelings only?
cause in mm7 you need to rescue the dwarfs from the red mines, which are definitly more then 2 or 3 - thats why mm7 had more spots open then mm6

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 24 2019, 11:19

justl wrote:
Xfing wrote:Alice Hargreaves joined my NPCs once talking to her at Charles Quixote's Erathia residence. There are 3 hireable slots now (which is a bit OP - I've got two Bankers and an Instructor). I think they should be reduced to 2, as in vanilla.


are you refering to hirelings only?
cause in mm7 you need to rescue the dwarfs from the red mines, which are definitly more then 2 or 3 - thats why mm7 had more spots open then mm6


The seven dwarves never counted towards the paid hireling limit, and I'm olny talking about that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 24 2019, 12:51

I've created a conceptual demonstration of what I was thinking the inventory change could look like in the form of a GIF.

Here it is:
https://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.ph ... 9UR8Lo.gif

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Rodril » Feb 24 2019, 15:37

Patch link have been updated. Thank you for reporting.
Doubled artifacts, bug with monsters in dungeons, who did not start to attack, and also these have been fixed:
Xfing wrote:Decks of Fate still don't tell you what they just boosted like Genie Lamps used to in MM7 vanilla.

Klasiant wrote:Another small one I noticed today: Humphrey in Castle Ironfist is REALLY concerned about his friend Slicker Quicktongue, to the point of asking me repeatedly to find a cure for him even after I have presented evidence he's a traitor, booted him from the council, murdered everyone in the Supreme Temple of Baa (including Quicktongue himself) and saved Enroth from the Kreegan presence. Even though he seems stuck on this line of dialogue he does let me use the royal yatch to go to Hermits Isle, as he should, he just never triggers any dialogue indicating I can.

After latest update he will stop once you enter High Council house.
Xfing wrote:Another bug btw - Antagarich's Judge gives you pretty much every quest item when you say "I lost it!" to him, indiscriminately. I believe he should only return quest items to you once you lose them while the quest is still not completed, otherwise not.

I believe he have to work as he do now. If you have not finished quest yet, but already lost objective item, you won't be able to finish it. Imagine loosing elemental hearts, you'll have to wait untill map reset to get another one.
Xfing wrote:Alice Hargreaves joined my NPCs once talking to her at Charles Quixote's Erathia residence. There are 3 hireable slots now (which is a bit OP - I've got two Bankers and an Instructor). I think they should be reduced to 2, as in vanilla.

She won't again after latest update, talk with Charles Quixot about promotions to get rid of her.

Xfing wrote:I've created a conceptual demonstration of what I was thinking the inventory change could look like in the form of a GIF.

It looks nice, but none of MM games had this feature, also, in my opinion, there will be too much clickable interface elements. I have doubts about this addition.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 24 2019, 16:45

Rodril wrote:I believe he have to work as he do now. If you have not finished quest yet, but already lost objective item, you won't be able to finish it. Imagine loosing elemental hearts, you'll have to wait untill map reset to get another one.


You probably misunderstood me. That's how he worked in vanilla - you dropped one item, you got one item and that's it. But in this merge the judge gives you copies of all the quest items from all three games, even for quests you have long since finished. You should be only getting the ones you need.

Rodril wrote:It looks nice, but none of MM games had this feature, also, in my opinion, there will be too much clickable interface elements. I have doubts about this addition.


Of course none of the other games had this feature, for obvious reasons. But the clickable elements are just an example implementation, what matters is the idea - toggleable colors for the inventory/equipment grid. You could think of another implementation for it. Besides, I mentioned that I would advocate these toggles only being displayable at the Adventurer's Inn, not to clutter the screen during the rest of play. But there might be an even better solution, we'd just need to find it :P
Last edited by Xfing on Feb 24 2019, 17:11, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby majaczek » Feb 24 2019, 22:02

Maybe additional promotion for Druid classes?
Druid is relatively weak class, the most interesting part of it is Grandmaster Alchemy, but even after advance he can't do Grandmaster any of magic :(

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 24 2019, 23:42

majaczek wrote:Maybe additional promotion for Druid classes?
Druid is relatively weak class, the most interesting part of it is Grandmaster Alchemy, but even after advance he can't do Grandmaster any of magic :(


Yeah, the druid is a rather unfortunate class considering how overpowered GM in magic is compared to master in many cases. But having access to master in both self and elemental magic is quite a big deal.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Echo » Feb 25 2019, 11:38

I actually have one big question that makes me wonder: how is the difficulty of the separate worlds looking with the bolstering and continent hopping?

I've always found MM8 to be the easiest of the three by far, with MM6 to be significantly harder than both MM7 and MM8 by a rather large margin. It was in big part due to the amount of enemies, lengths of the dungeons and map size. It was also why I played around adding a lot of enemies to MM8 and mixing them up to add some unpredictability and difficulty to MM8 (my favorite otherwise, followed by MM6 and MM7 respectively :) ).

Now that all 3 games are connected, it feels like the difference could be even more striking. Still haven't had the time to play the merge myself, which is why I'm curious to hear about your experiences.

On top of that, with MM8 being so much easier than MM6 it would get even easier with hirelings, wouldn't it?


===
As for the druid, I'd just let them get GM in their magics. They are gated from getting light/dark which gives a big edge to wizards and clerics as it is, so being able to have GM in all the other magic skills would actually give them a niche. I don't see myself ever using one otherwise, as way too many potentially-amazing spells are borderline useless on M compared to GM level. Right now if you want a magic user you get Cleric/Wizard, if you want a fighter you take pretty much any other fighting class.

Druids are a noob trap. I had a druid instead of a Cleric when I first played MM7 ages ago. I couldn't get past Tolberti cause I always fought in the turn based mode and I didn't have GM Protection from Magic. I was a noob. And I fell into a druid trap :P

I also don't like the idea of classes being able to grand-master say just Body magic, but not Spirit or just Earth and Water but not Fire and Air (for instance). In that case, Cleric/Wizard will still be a beyond obvious choice.
Last edited by Echo on Feb 25 2019, 11:44, edited 3 times in total.

majaczek
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby majaczek » Feb 25 2019, 11:55

Yeah that what Echo written is also possible to fix Druid classes.
But I think there could be additional possibility to advance for Druid and perhaps monk or rougue. The promotion later than promotions while choosing light/dark path.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.02.2019]

Postby Templayer » Feb 25 2019, 12:47

Xfing wrote:Oh, and a random observation - most undead are immune to Dark, which means Control Undead will never work on them. Could there be an exception made for that spell so that it has a chance of working against dark immune monsters? Or has a pre-determined chance of working based on Dark skill and ignoring the target's Dark resist whatsoever? I mean the spell is more expensive than Enslave, but it's almost impossible to use it in practice.

Another bug btw - Antagarich's Judge gives you pretty much every quest item when you say "I lost it!" to him, indiscriminately. I believe he should only return quest items to you once you lose them while the quest is still not completed, otherwise not.

The Mega-Dragon doesn't scale with the bolster (as most bosses don't, I'm sure :P)

Klasiant wrote:Can confirm the Enroth Seer does this as well, I think they have gotten a bad case of Hoarders Syndrome... Or maybe they are dragons in disguise...?

Xfing wrote:You probably misunderstood me. That's how he worked in vanilla - you dropped one item, you got one item and that's it. But in this merge the judge gives you copies of all the quest items from all three games, even for quests you have long since finished. You should be only getting the ones you need.

Xfing wrote:Statuettes in Antagarich disappear from their shrines after some time has passed. Strangely enough, those from Enroth never do.

Added to the Bug Tracker. I consider the first thing a bug.

Xfing wrote:
majaczek wrote:Maybe additional promotion for Druid classes?
Druid is relatively weak class, the most interesting part of it is Grandmaster Alchemy, but even after advance he can't do Grandmaster any of magic :(


Yeah, the druid is a rather unfortunate class considering how overpowered GM in magic is compared to master in many cases. But having access to master in both self and elemental magic is quite a big deal.

Agreed. They and the Ranger are essentially something like the Bard from the 2.5 edition of DnD. :D
I do like bards in the 2.5 edition of DnD. They are a good backup if things go awry and you cannot depend on specialists.

Echo wrote:As for the druid, I'd just let them get GM in their magics. They are gated from getting light/dark which gives a big edge to wizards and clerics as it is, so being able to have GM in all the other magic skills would actually give them a niche. I don't see myself ever using one otherwise, as way too many potentially-amazing spells are borderline useless on M compared to GM level. Right now if you want a magic user you get Cleric/Wizard, if you want a fighter you take pretty much any other fighting class.

Druids are a noob trap. I had a druid instead of a Cleric when I first played MM7 ages ago. I couldn't get past Tolberti cause I always fought in the turn based mode and I didn't have GM Protection from Magic. I was a noob. And I fell into a druid trap :P

I also don't like the idea of classes being able to grand-master say just Body magic, but not Spirit or just Earth and Water but not Fire and Air (for instance). In that case, Cleric/Wizard will still be a beyond obvious choice.

I like druids. In MM6 they were far from the noob trap you are describing due to the absence of expertise limits, and in the Merge, we have five slots. So I would either use two frontal fighters, a cleric, a sorcerer and an "leftover" character (druid, monk, ranger, thief,...). Potions can be used with a different character than the one drinking it (at least in vanilla MM8. So in this case you would waste the Druid's turn and not the turn of the character that actually gets the effect of the potion). My party for the Merge is going to be a Minotaur Templar (modified Archer), a MM6 "Xena" Pirate (modified Thief), a Goblin Shaman (modified Druid), a Vampire Cleric, and a Troll Spellblade (modified Sorcerer).
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 25 2019, 17:37

So Templayer, what do you think about that gif I put up? Just curious

EDIT: Aw crap. I don't think I downloaded it, and now it disappeared, as that page wasn't a host, it was just a sample. I deleted the files I used to make it too :<<<<<<<
Last edited by Xfing on Feb 25 2019, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Templayer » Feb 25 2019, 20:40

Xfing wrote:So Templayer, what do you think about that gif I put up? Just curious

EDIT: Aw crap. I don't think I downloaded it, and now it disappeared, as that page wasn't a host, it was just a sample. I deleted the files I used to make it too :<<<<<<<

I'm using IMGUR ( https://imgur.com/a/Lu72buT ) and even the images I made like a year ago while unregistered are still there.

I could use my website ( http://www.Templayer.cz ; the pictures have trial version overlay in them, and the text has randomly "DEMO VERSION blahblah" put instead of actual text, I will remedy that soon enough I hope, the software I used costs a lot...) to grant longer-existing accounts (i.e. 100+ posts) on this forum FTP access to a subdomain. Then we could post stuff there without limits. I can code a php forum for it too. And a website. Something like www.WorldOfEnroth.Templayer.cz is easily doable from my side. I'm already pretty much the community manager for the project, might as well host a website / forum for it. :)

If anyone has any thoughts on that...
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Vinevi » Feb 25 2019, 21:11

Had some more time to work on the UI. Here's what I've got so far:
Image
Image
Image
To install: use MMArchive to add everything from "Icons" folder to "Icons.lod" and from "EnglishD" folder to EnglishD.lod.
Link: Download v0.41
If there is a way to hide pictures under a spoiler on this forum please let me know
Last edited by Vinevi on Feb 25 2019, 21:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Templayer » Feb 25 2019, 21:36

Vinevi wrote:Had some more time to work on the UI. Here's what I've got so far:
Image
Image
Image
To install: use MMArchive to add everything from "Icons" folder to "Icons.lod" and from "EnglishD" folder to EnglishD.lod.
Link: Download v0.41
If there is a way to hide pictures under a spoiler on this forum please let me know

Looks absolutely amazing! I LOVE what you did with the minimap in particular!!

But if you wish for some half-assed creative criticism, then I SHALL PROVIDE! :D :D :D

1.
Image

2.
Image

3. ???

4. Profit.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Vinevi
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Vinevi » Feb 25 2019, 22:23

Interesting idea, I might try something like that, the top bar honestly is probably the most tricky thing to figure out right now. At first I wanted to completely get rid of these buff indicators, now I find them kind of interesting, but still the ones from 6 or 7 are probably much more simple and informative.

Regarding the mod I thought it would've been really cool to have some sort of a window for stats or achievements in the game to track progress. For example how many quests completed, maybe some additional goals like gold collected (with a few levels and rewards), something like that, continents unlocked, monsters killed, choices, anything.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 26 2019, 17:09

And yeah, it would be nice to be able to choose inventory colors too >_>

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Templayer » Feb 27 2019, 5:44

Vinevi wrote:Interesting idea, I might try something like that, the top bar honestly is probably the most tricky thing to figure out right now. At first I wanted to completely get rid of these buff indicators, now I find them kind of interesting, but still the ones from 6 or 7 are probably much more simple and informative.

Regarding the mod I thought it would've been really cool to have some sort of a window for stats or achievements in the game to track progress. For example how many quests completed, maybe some additional goals like gold collected (with a few levels and rewards), something like that, continents unlocked, monsters killed, choices, anything.

I find the indicators themselves fine, but their border with the top bar is too plain and thus creates contrast that isn't there for other GUI elements, which do have ornamental borders.

I think Rodril can do the second thing and use the achievement screen for that. Even though debugging will be needed! :hug:
Last edited by Templayer on Feb 27 2019, 14:04, edited 1 time in total.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Phobos » Feb 27 2019, 8:21

About class balance

I agree that Druids should be able to GM their magic skills to make them actually useful. Right now, they don't properly perform the role of either an elemental or self caster, and on top of that, they lack the mirrored path. Their Protection from Magic, Sparks, Poison Spray, Meteor Shower and Town Portal are disappointing and they could really use some of the GM spells. Light and Dark are still the big selling points for Clerics and Sorcerers, so Druids will never overshadow them.

The Ranger's problems should be alleviated by Master Armsmaster. With that, their axes have a respectable damage output and they still have their somewhat unique utility options to warrant some consideration as a class. Someone could argue that they should gain at least Expert in all miscellaneous skills to make them a more viable jack of all trades, which I suppose they were meant to be. They might also be better off with more emphasis on HP, exchanging one SP per level for one HP per level.
Last edited by Phobos on Feb 27 2019, 8:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Xfing » Feb 27 2019, 12:30

I've made most of those balance changes for mm7 in another thread, which should still be possible to find around here somewhere, but those pertained only to MM7 itself, as we didn't have the glory that is this merge yet.

BTW wen cloak repaints? Those are probably really simple to do. Crimson red Cardinal Cloaks would go amazingly well with the golden armor that most MM8 Clerics would be wearing ^^

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 24.02.2019]

Postby Templayer » Feb 27 2019, 14:08

Phobos wrote:About class balance

I agree that Druids should be able to GM their magic skills to make them actually useful. Right now, they don't properly perform the role of either an elemental or self caster, and on top of that, they lack the mirrored path. Their Protection from Magic, Sparks, Poison Spray, Meteor Shower and Town Portal are disappointing and they could really use some of the GM spells. Light and Dark are still the big selling points for Clerics and Sorcerers, so Druids will never overshadow them.

The Ranger's problems should be alleviated by Master Armsmaster. With that, their axes have a respectable damage output and they still have their somewhat unique utility options to warrant some consideration as a class. Someone could argue that they should gain at least Expert in all miscellaneous skills to make them a more viable jack of all trades, which I suppose they were meant to be. They might also be better off with more emphasis on HP, exchanging one SP per level for one HP per level.

HA! I made someone us the term "mirrored path"! Now I can die a happy man! :D :D :D

I do agree on those changes. Further upon, I think ranger should have SOME more expert miscellaneous skills, but not all of them. I will add this to the suggestion tracker.

Vinevi wrote:Regarding the mod I thought it would've been really cool to have some sort of a window for stats or achievements in the game to track progress. For example how many quests completed, maybe some additional goals like gold collected (with a few levels and rewards), something like that, continents unlocked, monsters killed, choices, anything.

Added to the suggestion tracker. My response included. Including the animated smiley. :D
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer


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