Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Rodril
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Rodril » Oct 9 2018, 14:00

kristal wrote:It's not working. "Character portraits.txt" in the "Race" column wrote 9. "Character selection.txt" in the "Available race" line wrote 9 and a new "Gin" line (after Goblin). In "Class Starting Stats.txt" new column "Gin (9)".

Make script in general folder with line:

Code: Select all

const.Race.Gin = 9

Or reapply latest update and use number instead of name of race in "Character selection.txt" table.
kristal wrote:Can Dragon to prescribe in character creation?

Yes, add "5" (without quotes) in "Available races" section of any continent in "Character selection.txt". "11", "12" - to "Available classes" section.

@Templayer. What you've written might have sense in terms of logic, but it makes all classes with human race suffer a lot in terms of game balance, i think, this approach leads to few new "dragons".

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Templayer
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Templayer » Oct 9 2018, 14:02

Xfing wrote:Minotaurs are more like knights than like paladins, they have master in armsmaster.


I don't remember Knights having expert Self Magic....
... but what do I know.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Templayer
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Templayer » Oct 9 2018, 14:07

Rodril wrote:@Templayer. What you've written might have sense in terms of logic, but it makes all classes with human race suffer a lot in terms of game balance, i think, this approach leads to few new "dragons".


I actually almost forgot that there are "hu-mans" in the game!

Well, if they all are "dragons", then no one really is, right? :D

Maybe we should give Humans a racial bodybuilding of expert to compensate! :D
(and normal regen.? Learning master? :P :oex: )

EDIT: Forgot about Goblins. Currently I gave them Expert thievery as their racial.
EDIT 2: Goblins got normal armsmaster and master alchemy as their racial skills. I couldn't figure anything else they could be racially masters of, and they do have shamanistic tendencies.
EDIT 3: Descriptions of differences between my version (meant to replace the crappy Race Classes), and Rodril's version (meant to complement them) added to the SKILL REBALANCE STANDALONE - Racial Skills.
Last edited by Templayer on Oct 9 2018, 14:32, edited 4 times in total.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Xfing
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Xfing » Oct 9 2018, 14:49

Templayer wrote:
Xfing wrote:Minotaurs are more like knights than like paladins, they have master in armsmaster.


I don't remember Knights having expert Self Magic....
... but what do I know.


Expert in those types of magic is nothing to write home about. Light path monks have that too in MM7, and no one compares them to paladins.

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Templayer
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Templayer » Oct 9 2018, 15:36

Xfing wrote:
Templayer wrote:
Xfing wrote:Minotaurs are more like knights than like paladins, they have master in armsmaster.


I don't remember Knights having expert Self Magic....
... but what do I know.


Expert in those types of magic is nothing to write home about. Light path monks have that too in MM7, and no one compares them to paladins.


*sigh*
A Knight is not a hybrid magical class. A paladin IS (knight + priest).
"Expert in those types of magic is nothing to write home about." - I do like secondary healing. But that is just your (and mine) subjective opinion on the matter.
Does not change the fact that Minotaurs have expert Self magic, while Knights do not.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Xfing
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Xfing » Oct 9 2018, 16:50

Templayer wrote:Does not change the fact that Minotaurs have expert Self magic, while Knights do not.


And for them it's just a gimmick, with the miserable mana pool they have. It can be ignored entirely and you won't be losing anything valuable with the minotaur. The fact remains that they are the second best damage dealer in the game, not counting dragons. Magic is an afterthought for them, more as flavor skills and consistency with lore established earlier (minotaurs as monsters like using Heroism etc). So yeah, they always reminded me more of knights than paladins.

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kristal
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby kristal » Oct 9 2018, 19:12

Rodril wrote:Make script in general folder with line:

Code: Select all

const.Race.Gin = 9

Or reapply latest update and use number instead of name of race in "Character selection.txt" table.

Still doesn't work.
For example: where the Archer can learn the vampire skill if you use RaceSkills.txt

Rodril
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Rodril » Oct 9 2018, 20:03

kristal wrote:Still doesn't work.

Could you send me your "Character selection.txt", "Character portraits.txt" and "Character doll types.txt" tables?

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Mortis » Oct 9 2018, 21:43

Templayer wrote:
Templayer wrote:
Rodril wrote:I've checked racial skills suggestions in the tracker. I think none of races should be able to grandmaster anything, just because their race. Only if they are focus studying their natural abilities they should be, otherwise race-based classes (dragon, minotaur, dark elf) do not have sense at all.


Well, since you cannot get a racial promotion... (I wish it was possible though. If a Patriach quest is done with the petrified gal, promote both Dark Elf class and Dark Elf race to Patriarch (or Matriarch if female...))
... if it was possible to get a racial promotion, then it would be M normally and GM with the racial promotion.

"otherwise race-based classes (dragon, minotaur, dark elf) do not have sense at all." - Let's take a look at the racial classes in detail, then:
Dark Elf - utility-wise the most over-skilled class in the trilogy. I have debated this with GrayFace previously. It's like two and a half classes of MM7 mashed together.
Minotaur - a crappier paladin.
Dragon - the legendary broken class. OP as <self-censorship>.
Troll - just plainly sucks. A melee fighter without magic with Leather max.

They don't really make much of a sense as they currently are, so ...
... I'm sorry, Rodril. :tired: :disagree: :S


Since this will be an additional mod to your mod, I see no problem in making two versions - One encouraged by Rodril and one by me. It's just two text files anyway.
And before I read upon somebody telling me that I am hijacking Rodril's mod again - By two versions I mean my additional mod, not Rodril's one.
MMMerge currently has only one racial skill, which is for Minotaurs (Axes)

EDIT: Rodril, I made you a standalone table for the Racial Skills, please tell me what else do you wish to change (or remove).

Troll doesnt suck at all. He has only leather ok, but has GM Body building and regeneration, which after Rodril's modification is really powerfull- and the most important thing- GM mace. He is pure fighter, something like barbarian in other RPG games so he doesn't need any magic ability or skill.
Minotaur completely sucks- can't wear helmets and boots, can't fight with dual weapons and has completely useless level(expert) in body, spirit and mind magic. He should have at least GM spear to be more balanced in defensive aspect.
Dark elf overskilled? I don't agree . Maybe GM merchant is to much, but GM disarm, chain and bow is nothing unusual or overpowered.
Thief in MM7 has GM dagger. M armaster skill, can fight with two swords(master skill), has GM disarm, steal and Leather so he could be more likely consider to be overskilled or overpowered. The same as monk

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GrayFace
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby GrayFace » Oct 10 2018, 6:07

Xfing wrote:First of all, not everyone plays optimally, so having multiple skills to rely on to achieve the same objective is actually desirable.

You said you want to give Knight less skills. But now I get it that classes from different games have been merged together (or were they?) and you want to correct how it was done. I thought they were left different - that is, 3 knight classes, one from each game.

Xfing wrote:Second - would you really call merchant and leather armor useless? With enough investment, leather can outstrip plate, and GM merchant forever solves any monetary problems you might have - and when training past level 200 those are bound to start appearing.

Indeed.

Templayer wrote:Well, since you cannot get a racial promotion... (I wish it was possible though. If a Patriach quest is done with the petrified gal, promote both Dark Elf class and Dark Elf race to Patriarch (or Matriarch if female...))

Why not possible? It could be added in a mod.

Templayer wrote:They don't really make much of a sense as they currently are, so ...
... I'm sorry, Rodril. :tired: :disagree: :S

You mean abolishing or not caring about race-based classes altogether? That's wrong in every way. Race-based classes are actually superior to race+class combinations, because they are distinct.

Xfing wrote:Expert in those types of magic is nothing to write home about.

In solo game it makes a world of difference. But knights are still better in pretty much every way.
Last edited by GrayFace on Oct 10 2018, 6:11, edited 4 times in total.
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Xfing
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Xfing » Oct 10 2018, 6:25

No, there are no 3 distinct types of knights. Jadamean kngihts can be promoted on Enroth etc etc, they all have the same skill caps too. They were unified into a single class.

And yeah, I did mention some pages ago how Rodril did change some skills in the merge, but not all. For example, he reduced MM7 Sorcerer's GM id item and id monster to master only, because now we have vampires and dragons who can grandmaster these skills. MM8's GM Alchemy and Meditation were also removed from liches, because druids are supposed to be the ones to GM those.

But GM Body Building for example wasn't removed from knights - even though Trolls were the only ones to have it in MM8. Monks are quite a conundrum, because they had it in MM7 too, but I'm not sure if them having it while knights don't would feel ok. Probably would though - MM8's knights felt much better balanced thanks to the nerfs they received in MM8 (even if actual differences were negligible), and that's what I was trying to bring attention to. I was only pushing for "official' balance changes, nothing beyond that. Like knights being restricted to expert leather, priests being lowered from master repair to expert and losing identification etc etc
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 10 2018, 6:29, edited 1 time in total.

Mortis
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Mortis » Oct 10 2018, 8:40

From what I know, in all MM parts knights supposed to be heave-armoured tanks, the toughest characters in meele fight conditions.
That is why in my opinion doesnt matter if they have leather expert or master, because while they have GM plate wearing leather is absolutely pointless.

I also would like to say, that:
- having dragon, Cauri or Blazen in the team is NOT obligatory, is choosable.
Dragon in all parts of might and magic series is king of the mosters, the most powerfull creature. So what did you expect, that even young joinable dragon from Garrote Gorge will be in power- scale at the level of necromancer or cleric?
I can't more read about how is MM8 easy. Yes, characters mentioned by me above make game lot easier at early stage,but(except of dragon) not whole game to the end.
How you can write about MM8 and dont write even a single word about MM7?
It is also very easy. Just after party creation, with 1 level team you can easily kill red dragon, and because of multilooting trick(present in all MM parts from 6 to 8) equip whole team with the most powerfull items, including relics and artifacts and get as much gold as you wish.
Moreover, at cost of 500 gold coin you can hire scholars which provide you with unlimited free item identification at GM level and grant bonus to learning skill. Is this fair or balanced? Definitely no.

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kristal
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby kristal » Oct 10 2018, 9:40

Rodril wrote:
kristal wrote:Still doesn't work.

Could you send me your "Character selection.txt", "Character portraits.txt" and "Character doll types.txt" tables?


https://yadi.sk/d/qizFtUd4CGloCg

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Templayer
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Templayer » Oct 10 2018, 9:42

Mortis wrote:How you can write about MM8 and dont write even a single word about MM7?
It is also very easy. Just after party creation, with 1 level team you can easily kill red dragon, and because of multilooting trick(present in all MM parts from 6 to 8) equip whole team with the most powerfull items, including relics and artifacts and get as much gold as you wish.

Any game is easy if you exploit glitches and bugs to gain infinites.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

Mortis
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Mortis » Oct 10 2018, 10:15

Templayer wrote:
Mortis wrote:How you can write about MM8 and dont write even a single word about MM7?
It is also very easy. Just after party creation, with 1 level team you can easily kill red dragon, and because of multilooting trick(present in all MM parts from 6 to 8) equip whole team with the most powerfull items, including relics and artifacts and get as much gold as you wish.

Any game is easy if you exploit glitches and bugs to gain infinites.

Multilooting is for sure bug , but scholars and similar NPC are normal game option, like travelling with Cauri, Blazen and dragons as team members.
In both situations they make game easier, but are not obligatory- it is up to you if you choose to use them or not to.
You can't consider game as easy only because it offers some faster and easier way to play as long as it depens on you if you want to use this opportunity or not.

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Templayer
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Templayer » Oct 10 2018, 10:23

Mortis wrote:but scholars and similar NPC are normal game option


For which you pay for. In percent of any gold gained by looting.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

Mortis
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Mortis » Oct 10 2018, 10:31

Templayer wrote:
Mortis wrote:but scholars and similar NPC are normal game option


For which you pay for. In percent of any gold gained by looting.

You really think that 5% of gained gold is enough for unlimited free ID item and bonus to learning skill, which helps you to develope your party much faster?

Rodril
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Rodril » Oct 10 2018, 11:18

@kristal
This is the problem: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m58wdng20t222 ... r.png?dl=0 - values are in wrong columns.
Try to apply these files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e4qfstjcqdgi ... 2Jhaa?dl=0

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kristal
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby kristal » Oct 10 2018, 14:39

Rodril wrote:@kristal
This is the problem: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m58wdng20t222 ... r.png?dl=0 - values are in wrong columns.
Try to apply these files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e4qfstjcqdgi ... 2Jhaa?dl=0


Yes! Everything works. Thank you! :)

I think that Race Skill.txt variety to the game. But where you can learn the skill of a Vampire, if the vampire - race.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Dhosmhea » Oct 11 2018, 8:01

Hello there! Downloaded and set up this merge and I am -amazed- at how much work must have gone into it and how tricky it must have been to get everything working right; really impressive!

Unfortunately, I *am* coming with a bit of a question, or possibly a complaint :p

I started a new game, starting in Enroth, and rolled out to check out how the game plays now; I was a bit thrown when the mercenary guilds didn't have the same skills, then remembered that in the MM7/8 system you learned skills from shops and magic guilds too. However...

I swear I have been all over Enroth, and I just -cannot- find who teaches basic Merchant! None of the guilds that I expected worked - the Smugglers', Buccaneers', and Protection Services guilds all don't. Temples don't either, nor any shop, nor the mage guilds; I even checked the town halls!

Loading up a new game and opting to start in Erathia, on Emerald Island, I ran over to the healer's tent and sure enough, *they* teach Merchant... but it seems it's a lost art in Enroth! Either that or I've just managed to miss it. Help me out here, guys?


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