mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

Moderator: Moderators

heluo
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 7
Joined: 30 May 2016

mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby heluo » May 30 2016, 3:13

master plate halves physical damage,

dodging can easily get highest AC
(dodging 17 + hand of master 10 * master dodging triples = 81 which is already higher than artifact plate Yoruba 60)

which one is more effective do you think?

Indeed, this question asks you which one is more effective between AC and physical damage reduce.(Of course, offense is the best way to defense after all... :D )


and another question here.

Does Unarmed GM (avoid incoming attack) works properly?

I'm Korean, and korean fan site's conclusion is it only works with 'arrow' appearance ranged attack(goblins&medusa) just like the shield spell & enchantment. No effect on 'colored' energy fires like dragon's attack, or spells. But I saw someone said his monk did avoid Dragon breath spell from Queen of Dead. Is it real this could happen? 8|

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Archmage
Archmage
Posts: 992
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Bandobras Took » May 30 2016, 5:57

I have seen my Monk dodge on the Lincoln.

I'm more inclined to regard halved damage as more important; there are spells that cause physical damage, against which AC does nothing.

And one of the problems that a lot of games run into is that they design monsters to be able to hit high AC, thus invalidating the point of high AC in the first place.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

User avatar
Baronus
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 288
Joined: 06 Jun 2015

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Baronus » May 30 2016, 13:31

Chain halves, plate one threes damages.
Lets calculate.
If monster has 15 level and do 100 dmg it works:
If dodging 81
15(lvl) + 60 + 81 = 156
minus
30 + 81 = 111 (chance to lose attack)
= 45 (chance to hit)
45/156 = 28,8 % to hit = 29 damages
Plate 58 + 10 skill = 68
15 + 60 + 68 = 143
minus
30 + 68 = 98
45/143 = 31,5 %
/3 ( gm plate)
= 10,49 % to hit = 10 damages.
Dodging 29 damages, plate 10 damages.
Plate is a lot lot lot better. Nearby 3x.

heluo
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 7
Joined: 30 May 2016

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby heluo » May 30 2016, 16:59

Baronus wrote:Chain halves, plate one threes damages.
Lets calculate.
If monster has 15 level and do 100 dmg it works:
If dodging 81
15(lvl) + 60 + 81 = 156
minus
30 + 81 = 111 (chance to lose attack)
= 45 (chance to hit)
45/156 = 28,8 % to hit = 29 damages
Plate 58 + 10 skill = 68
15 + 60 + 68 = 143
minus
30 + 68 = 98
45/143 = 31,5 %
/3 ( gm plate)
= 10,49 % to hit = 10 damages.
Dodging 29 damages, plate 10 damages.
Plate is a lot lot lot better. Nearby 3x.



no...Master plate halves(GM eliminate recovery delay), GM chain reduces physical to 2/3 as far as i know. But plate is still better than dodge to physical damage too....thanks!

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3850
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Avonu » May 30 2016, 18:13

heluo wrote:Does Unarmed GM (avoid incoming attack) works properly?

I'm Korean, and korean fan site's conclusion is it only works with 'arrow' appearance ranged attack(goblins&medusa) just like the shield spell & enchantment. No effect on 'colored' energy fires like dragon's attack, or spells. But I saw someone said his monk did avoid Dragon breath spell from Queen of Dead. Is it real this could happen? 8|


Monk can't evade spell attacks like Sharp Metal or Dragon's Breath.
However these spells sometimes can by blocked by monsters or NPCs (or even decorations) if they stay between your party and caster.

User avatar
Baronus
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 288
Joined: 06 Jun 2015

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Baronus » May 30 2016, 18:26

You are right! I always thought another because there are mistake on site which I look!
So I correct:
/2 ( gm plate)
= 15,7 % to hit = 16 damages.
Dodging 29 damages, plate 16 damages.
Plate is better.
Interesting. Lets calculate chain!
36 + 10 = 46 best plate + skill
15 + 60 + 46 = 121
45 chance to hit
45/121 = 37,2%
x 2/3 gm chain
24,8 % = 25 damages!
CHAIN IS NEARBY DODGING :-):-):-)
Leather
24 + (10 x 2) = 44
15 + 60 + 44 = 119
45/119 = 37,8% = 38 damages...
BUT 40 PLUS ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE!
Leather 38 damages,
dodging 29 damages, ( but you can use leather)
chain 25 damages,
plate 16 damages!
Its hard to calculate leather in this ranking.
Leather dodging combo:
leather exp 4 (only 9 training points) = 24 + 4 = 28 plus 156 dodging = 184
45/188 = 24,4 % = 24 damages
leather master ( 27 tr points) = 24 + 14 = 38 plus 156 = 194
45/194 = 23,2 % = 23 damages.
Completly unprofitable.
Armor system is not so good in M&M.

User avatar
Arret
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 540
Joined: 12 Oct 2011

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Arret » May 30 2016, 21:38

As mentioned earlier it does nothing against dragon breath, but all monsters have a hitbox that can effectively block ranged attacks from other monsters. With dragon breath especially this can get nasty because once the spell ends it explodes and deals full damage. Rock Blast in MM8 has the same problem.

As for the original question, plate is superior because dodging is terrible at the start of the game, poor mid game, and doesn't even pass leather until all the way to GM unless you enchant an item of dodging skill or pick up the Master's hands (remember that you don't even get master until you have discovered Evenmorn). The physical reduction from plate master is useful all game and doesn't require a single promotion.

User avatar
Macros the Black
Druid
Druid
Posts: 850
Joined: 21 May 2008
Location: Behind you, casting Armageddon!

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Macros the Black » May 30 2016, 23:47

The extra resistances from Leather Armor might be good enough to make it somewhat even, but the Monk still has to spend more skill points and doesn't get all the bonuses until he has his skills GM'ed.
You'd think Darkmoor was a ghost town, but instead there's plenty of life among the dead.

User avatar
Baronus
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 288
Joined: 06 Jun 2015

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Baronus » May 31 2016, 9:37

But in fact we must add:
helmets + capes + boots + gloves = 45 points
magical random item bonus about 5 points = 50 points
Leather 10 to resistances I calculate as 15 ac points.
Best plate 54 not 58.
Dodging 10 + 10 hand of master x 3 = 60 not 81
Dodging 45/175 = 25,7% 26 hits
Leather 45/184 = 24 % 24 hits
Chain 45/171x2/3= 18% 18 hits
Plate 45/189/2 = 12% 12 hits
But items may have magical bonuses dodging not.
Dodging and leather are nearby.
Leather dodging combo:
leather exp 4 (only 9 training points) = 24 + 4 = 28 plus 135 dodging + 50 = 213
45/213 = 21,1 % = 21 damages
leather master ( 27 tr points) = 24 + 14 = 38 plus 135 +50 = 223
45/223 = 20,2 % = 20 damages.
Completly unprofitable.
Combo dodging + plus leather expert is between chain and leather and needs only 9 training points and you can use leather with magical bonus. It is optimal solution for dodging.

heluo
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 7
Joined: 30 May 2016

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby heluo » May 31 2016, 10:11

Baronus wrote:But in fact we must add:
helmets + capes + boots + gloves = 45 points
magical random item bonus about 5 points = 50 points
Leather 10 to resistances I calculate as 15 ac points.
Best plate 54 not 58.
Dodging 10 + 10 hand of master x 3 = 60 not 81
Dodging 45/175 = 25,7% 26 hits
Leather 45/184 = 24 % 24 hits
Chain 45/171x2/3= 18% 18 hits
Plate 45/189/2 = 12% 12 hits
But items may have magical bonuses dodging not.
Dodging and leather are nearby.
Leather dodging combo:
leather exp 4 (only 9 training points) = 24 + 4 = 28 plus 135 dodging + 50 = 213
45/213 = 21,1 % = 21 damages
leather master ( 27 tr points) = 24 + 14 = 38 plus 135 +50 = 223
45/223 = 20,2 % = 20 damages.
Completly unprofitable.
Combo dodging + plus leather expert is between chain and leather and needs only 9 training points and you can use leather with magical bonus. It is optimal solution for dodging.


Dodge 17 which I wrote means enchanted item options by GM water magic. Sorry for confusing....

so what i said 81 means skill bonus only from items (17+10)*3=81, not include original skill level.

User avatar
Baronus
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 288
Joined: 06 Jun 2015

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Baronus » May 31 2016, 16:29

Other item can be magic too. I cant calculte it ONLY for dodging.

heluo
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 7
Joined: 30 May 2016

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby heluo » Jun 1 2016, 12:16

Baronus wrote:Other item can be magic too. I cant calculte it ONLY for dodging.


what i want to say is dodge can get more AC from item enchantment. Other armors can get +25 AC from 'of defence' enchantment, but dodge can get +51 AC from 'of dodging' enchantment. It's 26 more exactly...

Another enchantments effect are same, of course.

User avatar
Baronus
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 288
Joined: 06 Jun 2015

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Baronus » Jun 1 2016, 13:17

Yes but other armor item can add ,,mana regeneration" or 17 to accuracy. Dodging not. Hand of master need one place in equipment too. In this place maybe you will have item with +12 to accuracy. I dont think that really bonus this things is +26 for dodging... Calculating hand of master is enough...

heluo
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 7
Joined: 30 May 2016

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby heluo » Jun 2 2016, 3:56

Baronus wrote:Yes but other armor item can add ,,mana regeneration" or 17 to accuracy. Dodging not. Hand of master need one place in equipment too. In this place maybe you will have item with +12 to accuracy. I dont think that really bonus this things is +26 for dodging... Calculating hand of master is enough...


Ok I can understand your point but I'm wonder which is the most efficient way to build a invincible 'tank'...so I think get extra AC from +skill enchantment is big bonus than other armors. My original question is same, which one is more efficient higher AC or halves physical damage.

User avatar
Bloax
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 113
Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Location: Most likely not here. :c

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Bloax » Jun 4 2016, 15:05

Worth noting is that the quicksave feature in GrayFace's patched versions is extremely useful for getting top-tier items from item crafters..
So useful that you'll probably only ever want to do it once because you'll be completely decked out in just about the best possible items very early into the game.

User avatar
Baronus
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 288
Joined: 06 Jun 2015

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Baronus » Jun 4 2016, 15:52

Maybe he repair it? I dont want best items early game because it completly destroy gameplay. Is no sense play if is nothing to find. I dont buy items only chests. That is most intetesting.

User avatar
Arret
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 540
Joined: 12 Oct 2011

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Arret » Jun 6 2016, 4:21

I'm not quite sure why you are trying to make a tank character. Without a taunt effect in the game it doesn't really work unless your whole party is doing the same thing (MMMM team?). Even without solid healing or regeneration, I've found that just stacking Body Building will take care of almost any problem aside from Dragon/Breath Shrapmetal (which aren't stopped by armor anyway).

User avatar
Xfing
Raider
Raider
Posts: 753
Joined: 04 Jul 2011

Re: mm7) Plate vs dodging vs unarmed GM effect

Postby Xfing » Aug 7 2016, 9:53

Half physical damage is a good perk to have for sure. But AC gives you a chance to avoid an attack. These two shouldn't be counted as things in opposition to each other, but rather as things that synergize with each other.

At a high enough level of dodging and leather, a GM dodger with a master-skill leather equipped will inevitably overtake a GM in plate, especially since you only get +1 AC per point of skill in Plate, so not many people really feel the need to go above 10 with it.

In MM7 the best leather by base defense is Hareck's, which if memory serves gives +30 AC. With GM Leather at 60 you get +120 to armor class and +50 to elemental resists (there's -10 on the armor itself), so your total AC is 150, and that's not even counting boots, gauntlets, helmets and cloaks, let alone any potential "of Defense" enchantments you might have on you.

GM Plate only gives you +60 AC at most, as does GM in Chain, so with best base defense items in the game you can get as much as +120 and +96 to AC from those, respectively, with a nice physical damage reduction too.

The strongest chars defensively, though, are those who can combine more than one type of armor effectively, and have at least one and preferably two skills that scale better than +1 per point of skill. Knights, Paladins and Clerics in MM7 get Shield Mastery, which doubles AC gains per skill point. The Monk can combine a +3 per skill point skill with a +2 per skill point skill, and even throw in Staff if he feels like it, which I'm not sure if still contributes to AC from the Expert perk when used along with Unarmed - that whole thing is admittedly quite buggy.

In MM8 the Vampire has the potential to have some pretty amazing defenses given enough investment, with both Leather and Shield mastery, though most prefer to go for dual Daggers for better offense anyway. You get a lot of flexibility with how you want to build your Vampire, with both a scaling damage and a scaling AC option. Still, level 200 will be your upper limit anyway.

In MM7 the Knight is also the only class to combine Master Leather with Master Shield, and that could prove really OP should someone decide to go for it. Truth is, however, that at around 150 AC not many monsters, if any, can still hit you reliably, and any class can get there with bonuses or skill investment, regardless of their skill level limitations.


Return to “Might and Magic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests