Mystery of Sand M&M7

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Erwinner
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 21 2016, 9:42

lol this got even crazier down the rabbit hole since the last time I was here, now you are saying the intro with all its painstaking narrative beats, lipsync and 3D assets was not created as the intro, sorry mate I can't even lol

do you honestly not think it is a bit racist to say elves can't associate with the wizard because they're elves or goblins don't fit to the necromancers becuse they're goblins, I really think that is a bit racist and stereotype, I mean think about it, imagine saying it makes no sense for an person from Spain to report to an Indian or a person from Japan to report to a Brazilian or so on, what exactly is stopping them lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 21 2016, 12:46

Telling by the way of game about racism is crazy :-)
Did you hear something about forge story? Cutting city and rebuilding Armageddons Blade? About AB intro? This intro was changed. And its the same story in MMVII. Kastore and evils...

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hellegennes
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 21 2016, 13:51

So what you are saying is that they happened to have some extra scenes lying around, conveniently mixed them in a flawless piece of introduction, changed the whole plot to reflect that, which involves numerous quests, thousands of lines of reprogramming, hundreds of hours of beta testing and they did it all last minute. Not to mention your theory that the guy in the intro is actually a barbarian is absolutely insane. He in no way resembles a barbarian and he is living in a castle resembling those of warlocks (Archibald is both a warlock and a necromancer).

And you suppose all that because you don't think that harpies fit in the land of the dead, despite that exact thing happening in MM6, suggesting harpies do like to hang around with ghosts. :)

Have you ever heard of a thing called Occam's razor?

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 21 2016, 15:27

Baronus: If the game, from start to finish, violates your assumptions about the game, the only possible conclusion is that your assumptions are wrong.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 21 2016, 17:32

Baronus wrote:Telling by the way of game about racism is crazy :-)
Did you hear something about forge story? Cutting city and rebuilding Armageddons Blade? About AB intro? This intro was changed. And its the same story in MMVII. Kastore and evils...


well would you say telling by the way of book about racism is crazy, or is telling by the way of film about racism is crazy, have an open mind mate you can deal with racism in anything, I recommend a play of Arcanum mate there's good commentary on racism in fantasy in that game, point is respectfully I wouldn't use racism of elves or goblins to discredit the intro because it has no basis, unless you can cite a demographic study of Bracada and Deyja lol

also the intro of Armageddon's Blade wasn't changed as a matter of fact, in fact it was left in completely unchanged after the Forge mess and is jarring with the story, that's why you have the heroes running around looking for the Armageddon's Blade in some cave instead of Xeron and Khazander building it, they didn't have a chance to make a new intro which proves it actually does take time to do that lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 21 2016, 20:36

The other question is why would NWC create random videos of spaceships landing and elves fighting with goblins. Judging by the style of both the animation and the models as well as by their quality, they were certainly created by NWC and precisely in 1998.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 21 2016, 22:05

Baronus wrote:One dont fit to another. Elves dont fit to wizard. Archibald dont fit to king on throne.


You have claimed this, but failed to provide any evidence to support it. The fact that Archibald isn't wearing the same thing as his portrait or later video is no more significant than the fact that Roland isn't wearing anything like what his portrait displays when you first meet him.

This may come as a shock to you, but in Erathia, people can change their clothing.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 22 2016, 12:48

Roland is oldest
Archie is youngest... As you know more time of life healing our look...
Stop telling nonsenses.
It is next evidence.
Adding quest is hard? For creators? Graface add 100 or more in his pack. ONE PERSON! For team it is easy.
Stop telling nonsenses.
As you see intro to AB was cuted and this film which we looks is rebuild to fit to new idea. MMVII is the same time and ideas. So games NWC was cutted and prepared. As I wrote.
Easy. Stop closing eyes telling nonsenses crazy comparision. Facts and logic.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 22 2016, 13:24

OK it looks abundantly clear that this discussion is a complete waste of time, I bow out and tip my fedora to you good luck guys lol

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hellegennes
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 22 2016, 13:54

Okay. Adding quests, altering the whole plot, the program, the scripts, recording voice actors, animating scenes, rendering them and a bunch more stuff is easy and takes little time. The company can obviously develop the game within 3 months. Also the Earth is a rectangle.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 22 2016, 14:25

I think the language barrier has become insurmountable, since I have no clue why the relative ages of the two brothers have been brought up.
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 22 2016, 14:59

I am struggling to understand that myself. I think he is trying to say that although Archibald is supposed to be older, he looks younger than Roland in the intro. However, there are three reasons why this seems so:

1. you really can't tell because the resolution is not that high
2. Roland was captive for years and it's logical to seem older after all he's been through
3. Archibald spent years in a petrified condition

Other than that, if he wants to get his points across he has to try a little harder. Google translate should help. Also a bit of study.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Xfing » Apr 22 2016, 23:47

Ok buddy, you're really making a mess here. Let me help.

Baronus wrote:they designed it to be different.


It's the MM games that take precedence in terms of lore, not the HOMM games. The HOMM series, while more popular than the series that spawned it, is a spin-off. So you really shouldn't act as if the writers and storyboarders of MM7 had the duty of making the game align with HOMM3 to every slightest detail.

HOMM3 is a turn-based strategy game and the creatures are more closely described in terms of habitat, simply because that way they define their faction better. MM7 is a real-time RPG and simulates "real life" more accurately than HOMM3.

Baronus wrote:No Krewlod is fact.


And it served no purpose in the plot of the game. While it would have been fun to have it, you literally had no business there. Why do you need it anyway?

Baronus wrote:Orc in in Deyja is fact.


You've been corrected at least a few times in this thread, yet still insist on making the same mistake. It's not ORCS, it's GOBLINS. And guess what, goblins do live in Deyja. What's your problem with that, anyway? Because in HOMM3 they represented Krewlod, you think they should only live in Krewlod?

Baronus wrote:No dead peasant is fact.


You've got zombies, you've got skeletons, also many kinds of higher undead including liches and vampires. Making the peasants goblin (which is perfectly fine, since they do live in Deyja alongside humans) was more of an artistic decision than something resulting from haste or neglect on the creators' part.

Baronus wrote:Harpies in Deyja is fact.


SO WHAT?!

Baronus wrote:Green/desert ground in Deyja is fact.


It's not green, it's actually brownish. There are some sandy portions, yes, but what's wrong with that anyway? Most of the area of Deyja explored in MM7 (because it's not the entire Deyja, clearly) consists of badlands, a pretty close equivalent to the default tileset designated in HOMM3 ("dirt").

Baronus wrote:No snow Bracada is fact.


The kingdom of Bracada consists of the Bracada Desert and the Bracada Highlands. HOMM3 explored the Highlands and made their snowy tileset a property of their city. MM7 explored the desert instead. Once again, these two areas don't clash in terms of lore, they complete each other. HOMM doesn't take precedence, it doesn't dictate what MM contains. Not to mention that as it was said many times - the types of the games are different, HOMM contains more symbolic conventions to better define the factions. MM is free of such restrictions because there are no gameplay mechanics that need to take advantage of those.


Baronus wrote:No lizard Tatalia is fact.
Only people in Tatalia is fact.


Yeah, because this portion of Tatalia is actually part of the kingdom of Erathia. MM7 doesn't explore the part of Tatalia ruled by Trallosk. Also, you seemed to completely ignore the fact that Catherine recaptures this very land in the Restoration of Erathia campaign in HOMM3.

Baronus wrote:,,Castle in clouds" is on ground is fact.


It's not on the ground, it's in a city suspended in the clouds. You should look at the overworld model of the castle, not the animation you see when entering it. Many of those animations were rather loosely accurate in MM7. To be perfectly fair though, the animation for Castle Lambent shows it embedded in a mountaintop, and Celeste is described to be anchored half in the mountains and half in the mist above Bracada. What's your problem again?

Baronus wrote:An if you want think you can conlude. Why is disorder? Because no time.


None of the things you enumerated above are explained by lack of time. Having writers having to work with pre-established lore explains it better. Once again, MM is the core series and HOMM is the spinoff, so the writers of MM didn't have or need to look at every single stupid gimmick from HOMM3 and make the overworld adhere to the very same tropes, just because one person thinks it's inappropriate to have goblins and harpies in Deyja. Come on!

Also, Nighon IS an island.

And las but not least:

Baronus wrote:Did you hear something about forge story? Cutting city and rebuilding Armageddons Blade? About AB intro? This intro was changed. And its the same story in MMVII. Kastore and evils...


There is no good reason at all to compare the creative process of MM7 to the one of Armageddon's Blade. The change from the forge story in AB was literally done last minute, with all the mission maps remaining the same. Might and Magic 7 shows no signs of such changes late in development - the story is very well told and internally consistent all the way through - actually I'd say the overarching plot is the best out of 6-8. And no amount of whining about Bracada not being a snowy land is going to change that, for reasons me and many others in this thread have presented.
Last edited by Xfing on Apr 23 2016, 8:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 23 2016, 3:59

Small point: I still like the idea of Archibald taking over Goblin tribes to stir up trouble in Harmondale, disguise Deyja's involvement, and set up some settlements in Deyja for future harvesting. :)
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 23 2016, 11:39

Xfing wrote:
Baronus wrote:Green/desert ground in Deyja is fact.


It's not green, it's actually brownish. There are some sandy portions, yes, but what's wrong with that anyway? Most of the area of Deyja explored in MM7 (because it's not the entire Deyja, clearly) consists of badlands, a pretty close equivalent to the default tileset designated in HOMM3 ("dirt").

Baronus wrote:No snow Bracada is fact.


The kingdom of Bracada consists of the Bracada Desert and the Bracada Highlands. HOMM3 explored the Highlands and made their snowy tileset a property of their city. MM7 explored the desert instead. Once again, these two areas don't clash in terms of lore, they complete each other. HOMM doesn't take precedence, it doesn't dictate what MM contains. Not to mention that as it was said many times - the types of the games are different, HOMM contains more symbolic conventions to better define the factions. MM is free of such restrictions because there are no gameplay mechanics that need to take advantage of those.


That's what I said in a previous post. Might and Magic is the prime series and the philosophy of each title in the series is dictacted by the previous instalments, not by spinoff games. MM games didn't need to make clear distinctions between factions, nor did they need to associate certain creatures with a single region. The Heroes series did this because it made sense from a gameplay perspective. MM6 had Mire of the Damned contain grassy areas, had had harpies living there and the residents were humans. Why would MM7 drop that logic in favour of that of a game that is not part of the series? They borrowed whatever elements they needed from H3 but the rest would have to tie in with the rest of the MM games.

Also note that the spacecraft crash-landing in the sea is not a random scene created for no reason (not that this would make sense, anyway). It is suspiciously similar to the spacecraft with which the MM3 team left Terra. This sequence was clearly intented for the purpose it was used in MM7. There's no doubt about it. Anything else is craziness taken up to eleven.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 23 2016, 17:47

1. Krewlod, Tatalia, Necro, Erathia are no DETAILS but completly THE SAME countries like in HIII stop talking nonsenses that Erathia in HIII is another country like in MMVII and Catherine is another woman? Completly nonsenses.
This man:
Image
And this man is another person.
Image
The same games another look. Maybe last minute correction? To small correction.
If translators can all textes translate in last minute, creators can faster edit it in their own language.
Stop telling nonsenses. And talking about things you know nothing. I dont see sense arguments but "no because no". It is not you wishfull thinking but facts. There is some intervievs with JVC and he told they dont have time. All games MMVII,VIII,IX, AB, Heroes IV, Legends was unfinished, rebuilded, cuted. Its good looking.
I dont have time for nonsenses. This is not theme about desires but about facts and hypothesis.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 23 2016, 21:11

You have no facts. Your arguments hold no water and you obviously have no understanding about the processes involved in making a game, its logistics and the time constraints. No one says MM7's Erathia is a different continent than that of H3's Erathia. It's just another -more realistic- re-imagining of the same continent. It didn't and shouldn't need to adhere to H3's version down to the last detail.

There is nothing more to be said, we are going in circles. In order for your arguments to be more than statements, you have to justify them. You not only fail to justify your arguments logically, you plainly ignore anything that has been said in this thread, like pointing out what JVC has actually said and he meant by that. You continue to misinterpret his statements, as if nothing has been said about it.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 23 2016, 23:03

Baronus wrote:This man:
Image
And this man is another person.
Image

The same games another look. Maybe last minute correction? To small correction.


They are the same person with a different look. The first Archibald is no longer the ruler of anything; he has been exiled and has no crown. The second is a picture from before the game begins -- which, based on Archibald's journal, means anywhere from a day to five months, depending on how long it took him to establish leadership. A person's look can change based on circumstances. One of those circumstances would be fleeing from Enroth when you are the single most wanted man in the kingdom. If you're doing that, you're going to want to look like anybody but yourself.

The first picture is Archibald dressing up to impress Catherine and Roland -- he's run out of options at this point.

The second picture is Archibald dressing up to impress Goblins. He'd be an idiot to dress the same way.
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » May 7 2016, 14:28

The same person :-):-):-):-) You dont see? Or you dont WANT see? All who want see differences but if someone dont want see we have no theme to discussion. Its only small question. No so important.
If JVC wanted new game content he made new world.
VARN
CRON
Terra
light side Xeen
dark side Xeen
Enoroth
Antagarich
Jadame
Iranese
Lodwar
Rysh
Yes you completly obviously have no understanding about the processes involved in making a game by JVC. Erathia is Erathia. End.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » May 7 2016, 16:25

Are you still on that? Enroth is Enroth too, yet the Enroth of MM6 bears little resemblance to that of H2. Get over it.


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