Mystery of Sand M&M7

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Baronus
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 16 Apr 2016, 20:45

Very, very complicated interpretations. Nomads in Heroes of MM are eg. peoples. So peoples can be nomads and goes everywhere :-) In this way we can completly mixed everything :-) In fact there is NO dead peasant only orcs. In Harmondale orcs are invaders. It is no arguments.
In MMVII was planned the same nations as Heroes III we have resources all factions.
1. Erathia peoples locations portraits monsters = Castle
2. Elves peoples locations portraits monsters = Rampart
3. Dvarwes peoples locations portraits = Rampart
4. Nighon peoples locations portraits monsters = Dungeon
5. Bracada people locations portraits monsters = Tower
6. Deyja (no people) locations portraits monsters = Necropolis we see lacks
7. Krewlod peoples (rather golems) (some locations) portraits monsters = Stronghold lacks
8. Fortress only name but in MMVIII completly resources = Fortress big lack
9. Kreegans = Inferno.
10. Elements was cuted as said creators but planned pasted in MMVIII = Conflux.
As you see all resources of Heroes III factions but with holes. Hole is sign lacks not a artistic conception.
Look is unambiguous.
Last edited by Baronus on 16 Apr 2016, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 16 Apr 2016, 20:48

error
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 16 Apr 2016, 20:49

error

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hellegennes
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 17 Apr 2016, 06:39

First of all, stop saying orcs. They are goblins. Goblins and orcs are completely different things.

Secondly, goblins were in Deyja by design. They intended them to live there from the beginning, it's not a last minute decision. You don't make a full animated introductory cutscene, showing goblins reporting to the leader of the necromancers' guild, as a last minute thing. It's crystal clear that goblins are allied with the necromancers and that has always been the plan. Making a fully animated intro, especially in 1999, takes a lot of time and resources. You can't pull this off if it is a last minute decision. That makes no sense.

Now, the notion of faction units all living in the same area is false in the MM universe. This has never been the case and you can actually find clear evidence for that in the manual of Heroes 1. When not in war, the units that make up the faction live all around the continent. This is clearly shown to be the case in MM6, too.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 17 Apr 2016, 09:43

Ok. if you want goblins. In Heroes III that is the same unit. It is not Heroes II. Heroes I,II is completly different than Heroes III. Griffins is Warlock unit no people etc. MMVI is game in Enroth. Idea Heroes III and MMVII was another.
Intro must fit to game. They prepared movies to game not game to movies. As so as texts.
In Heroes Chronicles we Have 8 movies because they done it fast and only 8 campaigns. Its no argument.
What we have in intro? Orcs/Goblin fight with Elves? In game Elves fight with peoples. Elves raported it to WIZARD! Not to elves king. Orcs raported to king WHO IS A NOT DEAD! And it is not dead palace! Completly disorder! Thanks for argument! In intro we have pasted some movies and mixed. As you see everywhere in this game cuting and pasting is good looking. Chaotic installation last minute. Idea is losed.
Creatures and peasants is a completly different thing. Creature may be all around but peasant must fit to faction in MMVII. In Stone city we have dwarves not ,,all continent creatures" in Erathia and all people country people not ,,all continent creatures" , in Elves elves not ,,all continent creatures" , in Wizard country peoples and golems like in Heroes III in DW isle lizards not ,,all continent creatures" , in Alvar elves not ,,all continent creatures" , in Iron Sand trolls not ,,all continent creatures" , in Shadowspire dead creatures not ,,all continent creatures" , in GGorge dragons and d. hunters not ,,all continent creatures" , in R Roaming Mino Lair cows not ,,all continent creatures" . In elemental planes elements not ,,all continent creatures" .
Peasant must fit to faction. JVC is no crazy. Its absolutly clarity, certain, obvious.
Dont tell odds, weirds and freaks. Its losing time.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 17 Apr 2016, 16:48

No, orcs and goblins are not the same thing in any game, book or universe. They are different creatures and so is the case with H3. They only look vaguely similar in H3 because the graphics are low res.
Baronus wrote: Intro must fit to game. They prepared movies to game not game to movies. As so as texts.

What we have in intro? Orcs/Goblin fight with Elves? In game Elves fight with peoples. Elves raported it to WIZARD! Not to elves king. Orcs raported to king WHO IS A NOT DEAD! And it is not dead palace! Completly disorder! Thanks for argument! In intro we have pasted some movies and mixed. As you see everywhere in this game cuting and pasting is good looking. Chaotic installation last minute. Idea is losed.
That's absolutely absurd. It takes months to program, write and create a fully animated sequence, it's not something you can do at the last moment. This makes zero sense. The animated sequences are written on the story, not based on the gameplay. The story is the first element that gets completed.

Not to mention that the story is a continuation of MM6 and H3. The only reason MM7 reuses H3's assets is that 3DO wanted the game to be released fast. So your whole argument is moot. Archibald is the leader of the necromancer's guild because he is the foremost necromancer of the land. He was that in H2 and this is the story they were going for in MM7, even before H3 was made. Just watch the ending of MM6. There's also no reason why the leader of the necromancer's guild would be undead. Necromancers in the MM universe are alive unless they go through the ritual of the endless night, which transforms them into liches.

Also, the developers had no reason to match MM7 topography, bestiary and other things to H3. They are different types of games and they require different logic. MM7 had to make sense from an RPG-gameplay and RPG-story perspective, H3 had to make sense from a strategy-gameplay perspective. Strategy games are not about the story, so when you design one you have to make certain logical leaps. E.g. the fact that in H3 you create castles everywhere does not translate well story-wise, but it's fine for the purposes of the gameplay. That's gonna be different if you are making an RPG based on the same world. And so it is.

You have no arguments. You can't expect two games of different genres to match in those aspects. You also have no indication that your arguments hold water. JVC never said that the game was either rushed or unfinished. He said that for H4 and MM9 and it is clear as day that it's true. For the previous games he only said that if they had more time they would make better games. For example they could have written a new graphics engine, create new creature models instead of reusing those made before, etc.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 17 Apr 2016, 19:31

hellegennes wrote:No, orcs and goblins are not the same thing in any game, book or universe. They are different creatures and so is the case with H3. They only look vaguely similar in H3 because the graphics are low res.
:-):-):-) You have better eyes than other people? And you see more than others:-):-):-):-) Dont tell eccentrictys.
But there are some renders Tracy Ivata in high resolutions. All greenskin is completly the same:
Image
Image
Image
Baronus wrote:That's absolutely absurd. It takes months to program, write and create a fully animated sequence, it's not something you can do at the last moment. This makes zero sense. The animated sequences are written on the story, not based on the gameplay. The story is the first element that gets completed.
You really think that faster is making game than writing story? Story is fit to game in last minute because changing text is very simple. Paste and cut. Mixing film seqences is very fast. I do it someone :-):-):-) Maybe some hours:-):-):-)
Not to mention that the story is a continuation of MM6 and H3. The only reason MM7 reuses H3's assets is that 3DO wanted the game to be released fast.
Where you find idea that JVC want another looking creatures in MMVII but he cant??? Im very interesting that MMVII is not like his idea!
So your whole argument is moot. Archibald is the leader of the necromancer's guild because he is the foremost necromancer of the land. He was that in H2 and this is the story they were going for in MM7, even before H3 was made. Just watch the ending of MM6. There's also no reason why the leader of the necromancer's guild would be undead. Necromancers in the MM universe are alive unless they go through the ritual of the endless night, which transforms them into liches.
Ok. Necro king maybe live but palace is not necro style. Archie?
Archie look:

Image
Image

Unknown king, unknown palace:

Image


Two different people... King is too young... Archie looks like scientist and dressed in suit like civilised people. This men in skins looks like young barbarian... But mixing sequences is simple work as I do for me. I can do mix it in few hours. 60 second clip is very short. Only 480 pictures. But in this movies we see a lot weird things. Of course they prepared it but it is good looking.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 17 Apr 2016, 23:50

None of this makes sense. Creating an animated sequence is nothing like mixing graphics. It's a complicated process and it takes a lot of time. It would take much more time when MM7 was released (which was back in 1999). Jurassic Park (1993) had only 4 minutes of animation and it took a full year to be created and rendered. And we are talking about a film that had a budget of 100 million dollars (in 2016 dollar value). Creating an animated sequence takes a lot of time.

You also need voice actors, which is another process which takes time. This also negates your unbelievable argument that the person depicted in the intro is not Archibald. It's his voice. Not only that but, as I said in my previous post, it was planned that Archibald would be the antagonist in MM7 even before the production of Heroes 3 had started.

It is also quite clear that you have no idea how an RPG is made. The story is not written at the last moment, to fit the game. The whole game is based on the principal premise of the game, which revolves around a plot which connects everything: from objects to quests, to the areas that the game will have and the core gameplay elements. It's not about writing some simple flavour text. Without the plot you can't design anything. Designing creatures and dungeons and towns makes no sense without a completed plot.

Finally, the pictures you are posting are goblins. This is an H3 orc:

Image

It's a different unit in every aspect. Only its colour is the same.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 18 Apr 2016, 14:28

I'm confused.

Are you claiming that the ruler from the opening movie is not Archibald?

In that case, why does the Goblin call him Master Ironfist?

Come to think of it, in the video, he's living in a castle that looks more like a H2 Necromancer castle than anything, but it's clearly not underground like the Pit.

Woohoo, new theory!

Archibald arrived as Catherine was shattering Deyja, and resolved to use the remains of the Necromancer's Guild "as a Tailor's Needle." Suggesting subtlety rather than the overt moves of a bludgeon (this, at least, is not theory -- it's in the manual). He further muses on the idea of using the contested lands to stir up trouble.

But he can't do anything overtly necromantic -- that would just lead to a new war. So he goes to the edges of Krewlod, establishes a power base among the Goblins, and sends a large group to occupy Harmondale, while he has other groups scouting elven lands to determine the best means of persuading the humans and elves to war against each other (thus explaining the presence of the Goblin scouts near where the offworlders came to shore).

This plan has the advantage of disguising the Necromancers' involvement, as nobody gives to much thought to wild Goblins doing stuff -- they're Goblins. Archibald also, as leader of the Necromancers, sends Goblins into Deyja in order to have a native population to harvest and experiment on.

I like this idea. I think I'm going to believe it. :)
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 18 Apr 2016, 16:37

Good idea to cutting Krewlod and masked lack necro peasants. Writing in last minute... Completly contra game idea "peasant for all faction"... But not so good. If they are occupants, they should be militarised but peasants sholud be necro people guraded by goblin soldiers :-) As you see dont work...
You see big differences betwen one green monkey and another green monkey and you dont see differences betwen old man in suite and young in skins? :-):-):-) funy.
Are you joke? They named him Ironfist and its evidence? And if they named him Catherine he is Catherine? :-) What is the problem talk to microfone and save? They fit it to fabula.
100 milion dollars? What are you talking about?
Game movie? :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
It is 320x240 size movie 8 frames to second 480 frames to minute!
Why you talking about things you dont know it? You mock you. I know it very much because I unistall edit and install it etc. And is funy I read this for person who know nothing about :-) And teach me :-)
Weird fantasions are funy. Im not your not enemy. But beware Im very hard discussioner and in logic. Only my weak english can deceive because Im from another part of World than West. And I learned english short. My english dont mean that Im weak in my family language:-) Harm that you begin it discussion in losed position. I know games MM very good. Not all but Im know what I talk, very good.
Remember that we are not a enemies. I dont mind people in this forums like enemies.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 18 Apr 2016, 17:12

I meant that Archibald would have sent Goblins in order to create actual Goblin colonies (especially if the peasant population of Deyja was essentially annihilated by Griphonheart's reign and the subsequent invasion from Catherine's allied forces, something that is distinctly possible). In this case, they would be fairly likely to establish autonomous communities, not merely be there as guards for a native Deyjan peasantry.

I recognize that language may be a barrier in this conversation. My point is that there are hints that there is a story explanation for why the Deyjan peasantry are absent and there are instead Goblin settlements there.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 18 Apr 2016, 18:28

Did I say we were enemies? Did I say anything about your English? No. I am only addressing your arguments.

So, if it's that easy for you to create an animated sequence such as the intro to MM7, I am waiting for you to prove it. I am giving you a full week to recreate the whole scene, replacing goblins with... I don't know, zombies? You said you can do it in a few hours, I am giving you a week. You also have the advantage that it's hundreds of times easier and faster to do this now then it was in 1999, but never mind that.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 19 Apr 2016, 12:52

Program to building movies from frames is not so important only to conversion pictures to movies. Programming is by hands. Program dont knows what is your idea. In this case computers progress is unimportant. Mixing is very fast. I dont tell about about making new movies. I can in few hours rebuild intro to Heroes III and fit to MMVI. Queen Cateherine fighting in Enroth and next in ships goes to Erathia. Its easy. Only first sequences to end and end to begin. I of course I dont make sounds. Im not a woman. But for creators find weman to is no problem.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 19 Apr 2016, 13:02

I don't know what on earth you are talking about. Who talks about conversion? Mixing what? You think the intro to MM7 is a mix of separate scenes that were already created? How can you think that? It is clearly a sequence that was animated as a whole. It's not a mix of premade scenes.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 20 Apr 2016, 11:29

Exactly. Did you saw this intro?
1. Scene starship landing and spacemens.
2. Scene orcs/goblins contra elves fight.
3. Scene barbarian? king orcs/goblin raport.
4. Scene. Elves raport.
5.Scene. Wizard
And its mixed...

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 20 Apr 2016, 12:41

No, it's not mixed. It's a complete story from start to finish. And they didn't have these segments lying somewhere. They didn't buy them as stock footage, they created them ex nihilo.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 20 Apr 2016, 18:31

Facts are certain but I tell NO! :-):-):-)
Did you saw whenewer this intro?

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby hellegennes » 20 Apr 2016, 19:53

I did see it a hundred times. You seem to have not seen it. I can only view this as trolling. You cannot be serious.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 21 Apr 2016, 02:14

I'm going to agree with Hellegennes as far as the opening video to Might and Magic 7 being a unified piece created for the game rather than a mixing of premade resources.

The Goblins and the Elves are describing the same incident to Archibald (expressly referred to as "Ironfist" by the Goblin; he has, if not the same voice actor as Heroes 2, at least someone trying to sound like that voice actor; the idea that he's not Archibald because he regularly does laundry is laughable at best) and Gavin Magnus, respectively. You are therefore seeing the same event from both perspectives. The video is in no way choppy; the transitions are smooth. The Goblins are not reporting to a Barbarian King; there are multiple representations of dragons in the architecture (both the thrones and the stained glass windows (which is no feature of Krewlod architecture that I'm aware of)); they are talking to Archibald, the dark side counterpart to Gavin Magnus in the game. The polished floor, reflecting ornate pillars, is inconsistent with what we see of a typical Barbarian town in Heroes 3.

There is a seamless transition from the flaming braziers in Archibald's current residence to Gavin Magnus' fireplace -- note that the elves are reporting to Gavin Magnus, not King Parson or any other Elven authority (the banners are not that of the elves) -- thus mirroring the Goblin's decision to report to somebody who is not a Barbarian ruler (but does have authority to promote them directly).

The odds that NWC had a video of eight people in wetsuits interrupting a fight on a beach between elves and goblins for some other game and just happened to mix it in to separate videos with seamless transitions of goblins reporting to Archibald and elves reporting to Gavin Magnus is untenable.

Note that Gavin Magnus has a dragon's head mounted above his fireplace -- the presence of animal trophies is not strictly a Barbarian trait.

In brief, Baronus, your interpretation of the video is flawed. You are ignoring the things that can factually be seen and heard in order to espouse a theory that has nothing to back it other than supposition.

The question is not what the Goblins could have called the man in the video. The question is what they actually did call him.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Unread postby Baronus » 21 Apr 2016, 08:22

Of course the fit video to new fabula and dialogs too. You think they was so idiots and cant prepared mixing movies :-) Preparation is a evidence of cutting game. The same thing is in Armaggedons Blade intro. Is prepared too. Mixing a few movies is good looking. One dont fit to another. Elves dont fit to wizard. Archibald dont fit to king on throne. Throne room dont fit to necro animation in Deyja. More things. You must close his eyes to dont look.


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