Mystery of Sand M&M7

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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koval321
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Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby koval321 » Mar 30 2016, 19:23

In Tatalia you may buy SAND as trading item and here is two problems
1 It cost 2000 per crate which is nonsense
2 On crate is red caption DANGER!

I was thinking about it, and It all make sense if this "sand" was in original concept "powder"

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Mar 30 2016, 20:11

Yes. There is pirate ship and probably guns were planned. This is unfinished game. In Tatalia we dont meet lizards. Its is lizard country. Dagger Wound Isle is Tatalia finished and there are some guns and pirats. Its basic Tatalia concept.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Arret » Mar 30 2016, 21:06

That would explain a lot actually. I always wondered why the dragonflies were in AvLee rather than Tatalia.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Mar 30 2016, 21:28

There is a lot of things.
Bracada is not snow country like in Heroes III.
Castle Lambert IS NOT in clouds but on SNOW hills. Castle in clouds is probably walls of mist animation.
Castle on hills was planned in snows Bracada as in map added to game city named Spyre.
Bracada looks like barbarian city in Heroes III. Houses looks like barbarian...
There is no Krewlood in game. I think that Bracada Desert is Krewlood concept...
Orcs are civilians in... Deyja! There is no died country. Died country is Shadowspire! Necromancer woman and necromancer in MMVIII looks like pair... In Pit there are no Kreegans. But lava is Inferno terrain...
Many many many things. There is unfinished...
I think it is quest for modders. Rebuild MMVII to propper look.

Welcome to Tatalia...
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Mar 31 2016, 14:44

Baronus wrote:There is a lot of things.
Bracada is not snow country like in Heroes III.
Castle Lambert IS NOT in clouds but on SNOW hills. Castle in clouds is probably walls of mist animation.
Castle on hills was planned in snows Bracada as in map added to game city named Spyre.
Bracada looks like barbarian city in Heroes III. Houses looks like barbarian...
There is no Krewlood in game. I think that Bracada Desert is Krewlood concept...
Orcs are civilians in... Deyja! There is no died country. Died country is Shadowspire! Necromancer woman and necromancer in MMVIII looks like pair... In Pit there are no Kreegans. But lava is Inferno terrain...
Many many many things. There is unfinished...
I think it is quest for modders. Rebuild MMVII to propper look.


none of that really proves that the game was unfinished mate, it was unfinished, but those particular things you mention are not unfinished or improper IMO,
they're just creative choices, they did things different from Heroes in some places, there's no support that they were planning to put in more stuff from Heroes like Krewlod or Mudlands and so on, or that Deyja has to look like Shadowspire or lava has to mean Kreegans, lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby koval321 » Mar 31 2016, 17:01

There is proof for unfinished game, in monster.txt there are: Cat, Dog, Chicken and another Rat

BTW these trading routes are very simple, you just walk in circles
Buy in A sell in B, buy in B sell in C, buy in C sell in A etc

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Mar 31 2016, 18:38

There is A LOT OF proofs.
We have warlock stables in animation? Nighon is a ISLE! Water horses?
In sounds we have DVARWEN SHIP?! From stone city?
AND MORE MORE MORE!
Green died country? With orcs civilians? Harpies? And died faces in houses? Pit with behemots?
Creativity? Disorder. Chaotic packing!
They wants completly the same factions like Heroes III, models of units are acuratly the same. And names of countries. And we have Tatalia and died country from Heroes III in MMVIII. Coincidence? No! resources from MMVII.
I see they had no time. Time is money. And they cuted game.
JVC said:

CGM: What were the worst decisions 3DO made concerning New World or your franchise?
JVC: Well, there were a few. I believed that MM(Might & Magic) RPG's and Heroes games could have gone on for a very long time if we had created something new and innovative every 2 to 3 years. But the need for "sales growth", mandated by 3DO required us to make a new MM RPG and a new Heroes product every year - some in 10 months or less!

Jeff Green interview "Computer Gaming World" Feb 2004y.

And you see effects in MMVII and Heroes IV.

....

It may be black market. Sand is official but gunpowder real. In Tidewater is smugglers ship... And creators forgot this in fabula... Time...
Last edited by Baronus on Mar 31 2016, 20:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Arret
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Arret » Mar 31 2016, 19:08

koval321 wrote:There is proof for unfinished game, in monster.txt there are: Cat, Dog, Chicken and another Rat

BTW these trading routes are very simple, you just walk in circles
Buy in A sell in B, buy in B sell in C, buy in C sell in A etc


While the trade routes were pretty simple, they never had a viable return on investment until MM8 where you could drag hundreds of tobersk pulp or forged credit vouchers at once.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Avonu » Apr 1 2016, 8:26

Baronus wrote:Yes. There is pirate ship and probably guns were planned. This is unfinished game. In Tatalia we dont meet lizards. Its is lizard country. Dagger Wound Isle is Tatalia finished and there are some guns and pirats. Its basic Tatalia concept.


It is not an unfinished game. True, not all features, which you can find in game files, were done, but this doesn't mean, that game itself is unfinished.

Tatalia in MM7 is not a Lizard Country. It's a "Human Kingdom" - a region of Erathia between Krewlod and Tatalia Lowlands, (re)captured by Catherine Ironfist in HoMM3. Also Lizards are not only citizents of Tatalia, as you can see in Adrianne's campaign in Armagaddon's Blade.


Baronus wrote:There is a lot of things.
Bracada is not snow country like in Heroes III.
Castle Lambert IS NOT in clouds but on SNOW hills. Castle in clouds is probably walls of mist animation.

Kingdom of Bracada is not only snowy mountains in Baracada Highlands but also large Bracada Desert.
Also: "Celeste is the magical city built by the Wizards of Bracada centuries ago, and anchored half in the mountains, and half in mist high above Bracada".

Castle on hills was planned in snows Bracada as in map added to game city named Spyre.

Spyre is a village in Bracada Desert, read Notes book.

Bracada looks like barbarian city in Heroes III. Houses looks like barbarian...

I see lot of towers on desert map and Celeste doesn't look like a barbarian town at all.

There is no Krewlood in game. I think that Bracada Desert is Krewlood concept...

It's shame we didn't get Krewlod but on the other hand, I can't remember any mention about it in MM7 game files. Not at all. Besides native terrian for Krewlod is rough terrian (rocks and dirt) and steppes, not desert.

Orcs are civilians in... Deyja! There is no died country. Died country is Shadowspire! Necromancer woman and necromancer in MMVIII looks like pair... In Pit there are no Kreegans. But lava is Inferno terrain...

First, Deyja is kingdom of dead, not died/diet.
Second, you have explanation, why Goblins are citizents of Deyja too... Not all Goblin tribes live only with barbarians. Also, they supposed to be part of Forge town, which also originated from Deyja.
Third, The Pit is not Inferno Town but Necromacers' capital city. Kreegans live in Eeofol, not in center of Antagarich.

Baronus wrote:There is A LOT OF proofs.
We have warlock stables in animation? Nighon is a ISLE! Water horses?

Yes, a large isle and with (under)terrian connection to main continent. In the end tables didn't make in final game - maybe because the problem that you explained? When you create something, you often create more things, that are put in final version - some are cut because they were nice idea back them, but not during final version... and sometimes you create more familiar things, so you have them just in case.

In sounds we have DVARWEN SHIP?! From stone city?

Or from AvLee. In Heroes 3 Dwarves live amoung Elves in AvLee. Or just that was one of "just in case" thing.

Green died country? With orcs civilians? Harpies? And died faces in houses? Pit with behemots?

You have explanation why Behemoths are in Breeding Ground in game. Same with Goblins (not Orcs).
As for Harpies, they don't leave only in one place, same as many more monsters. They leave on waters too (H2), with barbarians on steppes (H4) and so on.

They wants completly the same factions like Heroes III, models of units are acuratly the same. And names of countries. And we have Tatalia and died country from Heroes III in MMVIII. Coincidence? No! resources from MMVII.

IIRC some rumors MM8 was supposed to be expansion pack for MM7, before 3DO changed their mind and wanted new MM game - 1 year after MM7 release. You can see that much of MM8 s reuse assets from MM7, not the other way. Elemetal Plains were suppose to be in MM7 XP.
And no, MM7 developers didn't want to have exactly the same factions like in H3 - similiar yes, but not carbon copy of them:

MM6-8 are different though. I think that Enroth was the official name of the planet....(named after MM6). We never took any kind of geographical approach to designing the maps as far as I know. (I was a level designer back then, and didn' have much input into the world design). If we need a place that was snow, we'd pick a place and make it that way...damn the consequences! that's why there's conflict with H3's Bracada Desert, and MM7...(one of them was a snow area as I recall)



It may be black market. Sand is official but gunpowder real. In Tidewater is smugglers ship... And creators forgot this in fabula... Time...

Fabuła = a plot
And no, they didn't forget. You can ask NPCs in Tidewater about this ship and what it is. Also Cleric class promotion questgiver has few words about it too.

Baronus wrote:And you see effects in MMVII and Heroes IV.

He was talked about Heroes 4 and MM9, not MM7.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 1 2016, 8:39

Nonsenses. Dont do it again.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Avonu » Apr 1 2016, 9:24

Thank you for this long and comprehensive answer.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 1 2016, 10:56

I answer you very comprehensive in another place... Its enough... I wonder you begin again. I dont want it...

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby koval321 » Apr 1 2016, 10:59

Ok I think I solved sand mystery, each trading route is 3 stage item production

Turlean Wood > Arrowheads > Griffin Feathers = Arrows production
Sand > Glass Bottles > Enrothian Wine = its production of wine, so SAND is used to create bottles

Possibly "danger' on crate is coincidence, they could just make bunch of random gfx

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 1 2016, 13:28

Maybe they used item another first intend? Now is hard conjecture how is first idea in this game.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 1 2016, 15:20

Yeap, Avonu is right. You can't take one game and try to apply it as-is to another. The world of Enroth is not that static; quite the opposite, it's fuzzy, and for one, MMs are a better source of information on that than HoMMs. The strategy games had to be solid in terms of gameplay first, and the story was just flavour added after the fact; whereas for RPGs, one can go a lot more into details, without having to worry about things like unit balance.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 1 2016, 17:32

He dont has right. He invent his own weird fantasion. But it is between me and him. He knows and I know. Dont enter beetwen us. Write what you think.
Its obvious that MMVII is world of Heroes III. The same countries the same sprites. Disorder and chaos is good looking in MMVII for MM lover. No Krewlod no Tatalia no Necrocountry no Bracada no Kreegan country. Poor Nighon with ONE LOCATION!!! In Emerald Isle only ONE dungeon and only serpentfly as monster. In Harmondale only two dungeons. And only orcs. A lot of unused space in tables. Unused sprites. Evidently not finished. A LOT OF PROOFS! I dont intend lost time to making very long list of proofs because every can who knows MM can do it.
JVC told us they cant finished games in 3DO. You know better than creator?

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 1 2016, 18:04

mate Avonu already said everything I could possibly say, there are a few things unfinished in MM7, but the things you were on about above are not unfinished, there's no notion of lizardmen or krewlod or snowy bracada being cut from MM7, they simply were not going in that direction for this game lol

you might as well tell me MM6 is unfinished because unlike Heroes Enroth there are no signs of elves in MM6 Enroth, not at all, just means they chose not to use the elves, not that they had to cut the elves and were unfinished or whatnot lol

also you're citing an interview where JVC said the games could have potentially been much better with more resources, but that's a whole different potential game and production which doesn't exist mate,
he is saying they could have made much better games with much bigger scope with more time and money, but Might and Magic 7 as it was budgeted and commissioned is not missing lots of stuff, it is a pretty complete production lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 1 2016, 19:42

You are wrong. You dont know Avonu like me. You dont know what was a discussion I told, not in english. I dont want tell about it. I told "Dont enter beetwen us".
...

there's no notion of lizardmen or krewlod...

...

Of course IS! MMVIII you start in Tatalia then you go to dead country in dark colors and you have civilians barbarians in MMVII! They created orcs for civilians in necropolis? :-):-):-)
...

you might as well tell me MM6 is unfinished because unlike Heroes Enroth there are no signs of
elves in MM6 Enroth, not at all, just means they chose not to use the elves, not that they had
to cut the elves and were unfinished or whatnot lol

...
In HOMMII you dont have ,,Elves conutry", only sorceress city.
You have druids, dwarves. MMVI lovers FOUND UNUSED DUNGEON! In Loretta Fleise country! MMVI is a bit unfinished! Maybe 5%.
...

he is saying they could have made much better games with much bigger scope with more time
and money, but Might and Magic 7 as it was budgeted and commissioned is not missing lots of
stuff, it is a pretty complete production lol

...

Your words...

JVC: I believed that MM(Might & Magic) RPG's and Heroes games could have gone on for a very long time if we had created something new and innovative every 2 to 3 years. But the need for "sales growth", mandated by 3DO required us to make a new MM RPG and a new Heroes product every year - some in 10 months or less!

...

It is true JVC text. If MMVII is finished what is a sense of his words? He want dig 2 years more in game which is finished in 10 months? It is only one sense of this words. They sell unfinished games. Selling unfinished games is now ordinary concern practice. See on game market. Everywhere unfinished bugged premieres! It is not new practice!
I know you love this games. Me too but it doesnt mean closing eyes and pretending that all is OK. Disorder in MMVII irritate me. Illogical monster places and illogical countries. It is very sharpness look.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 1 2016, 21:15

I'm not closing my eyes on that mate, I agree completely with JVC, to be honest I think MM7 and 8 are a bit crap in many ways compared to their competitors in the genre and could have certainly used the extra time lol,

all I'm saying is I disagree the disparities between MM7 and Heroes 3 are an issue of the game being unfinished from production perspective, they are a creative direction issue if anything lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 1 2016, 22:06

Its your right and opinion.
My opinion is:
Erathia is Erathia. Erathia in Heroes III is the same continent as in MMVII. There is no two continents.
I see big differrences.
I think... WHY?
I found JVC words.
We have no time. 10 months for game.

Lets see:
Heroes of Might and Magic III 1999
Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor 1999
Might and Magic VIII: Day of the Destroyer 2000
Heroes of Might and Magic: Quest for the Dragon Bone Staff 2001
Legends of Might and Magic 2001
Heroes of Might and Magic IV 2002
Might and Magic IX 2002

PLUS ADDONS!
...

3 years 7 games !!!
No one game in 10 months. ONE GAME IN 6 MONTHS! With addons 5 months maybe.

There is no artistic creativity but labour camp.
And conclusion. Differences between Erathia and ,,Erathia" is a result of short time for production. So games are not like in creators ideas but cutted from many elements which I told and confusion another elements.
Thats all. Logical. Not my fantasions but JVC words AND GAME PREMIERES DATES! Facts, facts, facts...


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