M&M Dark Messiah

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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ErrorKatz
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M&M Dark Messiah

Postby ErrorKatz » Mar 15 2014, 19:44

Anybody remember the M&M game for the 360?
No?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nhGKmsKSno

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Postby Angelspit » Mar 17 2014, 14:00

I'd rather forget it once and for all... :D
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Postby Xdarkon » Mar 27 2014, 10:31

Oh sure I watched my older brother play through it when I was like 10 but I never bought/played it for myself

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Re: M&M Dark Messiah

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Apr 8 2014, 19:57

ErrorKatz wrote:Anybody remember the M&M game for the 360?
No?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nhGKmsKSno


It's quite an anti-climax to the Heroes V series plotline.

The thing is that it's an RPG but you really don't have any freedom, there is only one genuine choice you get to make in your life and it's at the end.

Okay there is the choice where you get rid of Xana but that's a non-brainer.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

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Postby Tress » Apr 9 2014, 6:08

The thing is that it's an RPG but you really don't have any freedom, there is only one genuine choice you get to make in your life and it's at the end.


Actually it's hardly an RPG. It's no more RPG than bioshock, which in my book is glorified shooter.Just because it have MM title doesnt make it RPG, game should be accepted for what it is - 3d action, which it does pretty good. Secondly availability of choice is not what defines RPG. Old school games like EOB hardly had any choices aside of equipment/ party configuration.

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Postby Angelspit » Apr 9 2014, 13:35

The player has some freedom on how to deal with certain enemies and situations, but that was spoiled by the fact that kicks and a melee weapon could easily get you out of trouble without a scratch.

On the plus side the multiplayer part was a lot of fun (on the PC at least) if you could find some good people to play with.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Apr 9 2014, 15:29

Tress wrote:
The thing is that it's an RPG but you really don't have any freedom, there is only one genuine choice you get to make in your life and it's at the end.


Actually it's hardly an RPG. It's no more RPG than bioshock, which in my book is glorified shooter.Just because it have MM title doesnt make it RPG, game should be accepted for what it is - 3d action, which it does pretty good. Secondly availability of choice is not what defines RPG. Old school games like EOB hardly had any choices aside of equipment/ party configuration.


A true RPG (say Baldur's Gate) places a person is an actual social role within a wider world which they have to perform (even if it's just killing dragons).

By contrast for the most part Dark Messiah is the story of the completely atomised self, utterly alone for the most part with only the voices in his head for company. This could be an artistic statement were this is clearly not intended to be the case, it is a consequence of the fact that the game is really a series of overly-large dungeons which enforce your isolation.

The lack of choice and isolation combine to create a near complete lack of character development, there is only one goal which is survive and the only two points in the game where there is a genuine character development choice really are simplistic out of the black box moral ones.

Do I get rid of Xana, do I give the Skull of Shadows to Kha-Bhaleth? (wasn't he killed at the end of Heroes V anyway?) These are sudden moral choices suddenly plastered on to a completely amoral universe. The reason is that you have nothing but enemies and various 'dungeons' to overcome pretty much completely alone.

Some games (like Heroes of Might and Magic) you often lack choice because of pre-existing character development, you are a certain kind of person and the person you are has defined what the plot you are playing through is.

With Sareth however you have a total blank slate who rarely speaks, who does everything either because he is following orders or because he's trying to get back to the people giving him orders. This makes the lack of choice critical, he has no character of his own and you have no way to define what the character is like yourself through your in-game actions.
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Postby Tress » Apr 10 2014, 10:24

By contrast for the most part Dark Messiah is the story of the completely atomised self, utterly alone for the most part with only the voices in his head for company. This could be an artistic statement were this is clearly not intended to be the case, it is a consequence of the fact that the game is really a series of overly-large dungeons which enforce your isolation.


You clearly misinterpret game , and look on it from wrong angle. It would be same as taking car and start to approach it's flaws from motorcycle point of view, naming flaws like being too wide or heavy, or having only one break pedal. DM is not RPG thus any analysis in this context is flawed. It's no more RPG than bioshock, and slightly more RPG than call of duty(In fact black ops 2 had sort of branching plot, so it is as much rpg in that department). XP system DM have is no more than glorified system of choosing weapons, no much different than upgrade or plasmid/salt system in other games.

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Postby Marzhin » Apr 10 2014, 14:07

I enjoyed Dark Messiah a lot (the PC version, that is) and felt it was a solid successor to medieval FPS such as HeXen 2. It was never meant to be considered a RPG, but rather a FPS with some RPG flavour on top.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Apr 10 2014, 15:29

Tress wrote:You clearly misinterpret game , and look on it from wrong angle. It would be same as taking car and start to approach it's flaws from motorcycle point of view, naming flaws like being too wide or heavy, or having only one break pedal. DM is not RPG thus any analysis in this context is flawed. It's no more RPG than bioshock, and slightly more RPG than call of duty(In fact black ops 2 had sort of branching plot, so it is as much rpg in that department). XP system DM have is no more than glorified system of choosing weapons, no much different than upgrade or plasmid/salt system in other games.


The XP system is actually quite detailed, you have to think carefully as to what kind of a character you want to develop in the long run because the abilities are part of a tree. Mechanically speaking it does resemble a first-person RPG like Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim etc.

The problem is that while it initially leads you to believe you are dealing with a RPG, it actually like you say isn't one. That is a problem in itself I think since it creates an expectation given the nature of the plot and game resemblances but then it lets the player down.
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Postby Angelspit » Apr 10 2014, 15:37

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The XP system is actually quite detailed, you have to think carefully as to what kind of a character you want to develop in the long run because the abilities are part of a tree.

Unless you're playing the Xbox version, like the OP. In that case you choose a character type and just go along with it.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Apr 10 2014, 16:58

Angelspit wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The XP system is actually quite detailed, you have to think carefully as to what kind of a character you want to develop in the long run because the abilities are part of a tree.

Unless you're playing the Xbox version, like the OP. In that case you choose a character type and just go along with it.


I didn't know that. It doesn't make sense in story terms either, since the main character is supposed to be a wizard, to some degree of proficiancy at least.
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Postby Angelspit » Apr 11 2014, 18:02

The details of the plot are a little vague in my mind, but in any case it was a big drawback. It didn't make much sense for the fighter, who uses the rope bow many times to pull himself up, to be unable to use any of the countless (regular) bows he finds on his journey.

And I guess it makes the game harder for wizards, once they reach the orcs or, later on, the dark knights. I meant to give it a try (I played as a fighter personally), but once I reached the end I was sick of the game­.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Apr 22 2014, 9:07

Angelspit wrote:The details of the plot are a little vague in my mind, but in any case it was a big drawback. It didn't make much sense for the fighter, who uses the rope bow many times to pull himself up, to be unable to use any of the countless (regular) bows he finds on his journey.

And I guess it makes the game harder for wizards, once they reach the orcs or, later on, the dark knights. I meant to give it a try (I played as a fighter personally), but once I reached the end I was sick of the game­.


Playing wizard is fairly easy. The reason is that you can defeat most encounters by using charm to turn enemies against eachother once you have charm.

The annoying bit is that mana (slowly) regenerates meaning that you spend an ever increasing amount of time waiting for you mana to come back. It would be good to have had a wait button that activates when enemies aren't around in order to allow you to regenerate mana instantly.

Or better simply make it so that mana is a finite resource that does not regenerate.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



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