[Lore] Plot-convenient deaths?

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Xfing
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[Lore] Plot-convenient deaths?

Postby Xfing » Sep 9 2013, 21:25

How is it so that some people die permanently (most plot-relevant characters in HoMM3 for instance), yet others simply get raised? Magic on Enroth is so advanced that it can easily revive people both "fully" or as zombies, as well as animate slain undead. Best of clerics can even bring people back from eradication, the proverbial "pile of ashes".

So, what decides about when someone's death is permanent or reversible? Is it all just about hoping for suspension of disbelief in order to advance the plot?

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Postby Arret » Sep 9 2013, 22:48

Generally, it is reversible if necromancy wasn't involved and there is still a body. As to how available the body is, that is going to be plot driven.

The only time this rule is broken that I can think of is Queen Kalindra (MM5), and that is considered a big plothole.

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Postby Flodarien » Sep 11 2013, 12:53

Arret wrote: The only time this rule is broken that I can think of is Queen Kalindra (MM5), and that is considered a big plothole.


When was the rule broken with Queen Kalindra? She was turned into a vampire, which means that she never stopped living. Her crown is magical, and plot wise, it could easily have turned her back into a human. Maybe the curse is only reversible for an amount of time, like some spells in MM6-8 works.
Last edited by Flodarien on Sep 13 2013, 10:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Xfing » Sep 11 2013, 17:52

Vampires are technically undead, even though they're infinitely more lifelike than any other humanoid undead.

But come on, even eradicated characters can be brought back, and there's probably not much left of them.

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Re: [Lore] Plot-convenient deaths?

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 15 2013, 15:04

Xfing wrote:How is it so that some people die permanently (most plot-relevant characters in HoMM3 for instance), yet others simply get raised? Magic on Enroth is so advanced that it can easily revive people both "fully" or as zombies, as well as animate slain undead. Best of clerics can even bring people back from eradication, the proverbial "pile of ashes".

So, what decides about when someone's death is permanent or reversible? Is it all just about hoping for suspension of disbelief in order to advance the plot?


Obviously because there are rules to these things.

A person can only be ressurected if certain stringent conditions are met. What those conditions are is anyone's guess.
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Postby vladimir-maestro » Sep 17 2013, 17:10

resurrection could be aplied if human's life was taken away.
if human dies his natural death from eldery - he cannot be revived as a human being, only an undead form.
so if there was a murder - there is a chance of reviving.
imho.
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Postby tolich » Sep 17 2013, 18:17

Roy Greenhilt was resurrected after being raised as a bone golem.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Sep 17 2013, 20:36

vladimir-maestro wrote:resurrection could be aplied if human's life was taken away.
if human dies his natural death from eldery - he cannot be revived as a human being, only an undead form.
so if there was a murder - there is a chance of reviving.
imho.


In MM games, it sure doesn't stop clerics from raising the over 100-year-old people, who die while resting, from the dead. Although admittedly they die again by the end of the day.

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Postby Avonu » Sep 18 2013, 8:55

HoMM3:RoE wrote:LONG LIVE THE KING campaign

A GRYPHON'S HEART mission


Our spies tell us that the tomb of King Gryphonheart is located in the town of Stonecastle, near Erathia's northern border, in a place that was clear of the war with Nighon and Eeofol. Seek this place out and capture it so that we may animate the body of the King. You must also seek out the Spirit of Oppression and bring it to Stonecastle, as it is one of the items we need for the ritual to animate the King's body. But you must act quickly - the body will be of no use to us if its spirit departs.

To win, you must bring the Spirit of Opression to Stonecastle within three months.

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Postby Flodarien » Sep 18 2013, 12:16

GreatEmerald wrote:In MM games, it sure doesn't stop clerics from raising the over 100-year-old people, who die while resting, from the dead. Although admittedly they die again by the end of the day.


In Lands of Lore, they did say that natural death can't be revived. I would think that in this context, Natural death can be revived but only for as long as the body can take it, which is not long enough. Think of Redigan Mann and Blutarch Mann in Team Fortress 2. They have machines that can revive them, but each time they die, they die for a little bit longer. They will one day completely die.

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Postby Tress » Sep 19 2013, 6:22

To win, you must bring the Spirit of Opression to Stonecastle within three months.


Well it's pretty much arbitrary, so you would have to complete mission in some time. Also that isn't really resurrection per se, as he was resurrected as lich, while it was never considered to resurrect him by normal means(even though he's a king), nor was any other characters death like streak of seers that got into "accident" courtesy of Archibald.
Basically only time it really was adressed was in homm5 where it was stated that Nicolai is too damaged by demon magic to be ressurected by light magic means.

In Lands of Lore, they did say that natural death can't be revived. I would think that in this context, Natural death can be revived but only for as long as the body can take it, which is not long enough. Think of Redigan Mann and Blutarch Mann in Team Fortress 2. They have machines that can revive them, but each time they die, they die for a little bit longer. They will one day completely die.


Actually in D&D as well you cant cheat natural death by resurrection spells(although i think there was ways to cheat death given the time and resources), but generally resurrection is just for player convenience(as any party RPG would be frustrating without such or similar mechanics) and it is rarely used as freely as player could, and it is used only arbitrary as plot device.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 19 2013, 18:47

tress wrote:Actually in D&D as well you cant cheat natural death by resurrection spells(although i think there was ways to cheat death given the time and resources), but generally resurrection is just for player convenience(as any party RPG would be frustrating without such or similar mechanics) and it is rarely used as freely as player could, and it is used only arbitrary as plot device.


Although the player generally doesn't really use it freely, only for party members. Which are a pretty small group.

There are some quite nasty societal implications though. I'd hate to be the priest that had to explain to grieving relative that so and so can't be ressurected for X or Y reason, when for Z reason so and so was able to be ressurected.
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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Sep 25 2013, 7:52

People get resurrected out of necessity, which by itself subject to the cleric's own judgment.

If the cleric doesn't feel any need to raise someone, then he/she won't be raised from dead.

The necessity varies from plot to plot, game to game, but the cleric's judgment in this matter is un-reviewable. But in most RPGs, cleric is the one who has the best wisdom to take this matter anyway, so it come to sense.

On the other hand, the price of resurrecting someone is obviously put a limitation to the cleric's ability to do it, even if he/she is willing to do it.

Just like what Tollich said, Roy Greenhilt can be resurrected, true, but the price is so exacting that it required a good amount of effort just to made it up. For that reason only, the cleric might not feel that much inclined to do the same thing for say, Belkar.

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Postby Xfing » Sep 26 2013, 9:23

I have also been under the impression that parties in MM6-8 games have been granted some sort of immortality. This was most obvious in MM7 with that entire "You've still got stuff to do" speech. MM6 was quite similar. So, was it a so-called "plot-shield"? Actually it's quite easy not to die even once in MM7 and 8. Probably trickier in MM6 but it can be done too. So, what's the point?

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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Sep 28 2013, 8:00

Someone else out there been watching u for sure.

Like it this way better. Make u feel special and obliged and so on. Really. Why even play RPG if u're not much anything other than the next guy anyway ?


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