Why is MM8 so eerie?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Tress
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Postby Tress » Apr 10 2013, 15:15

In MM8 they seem a lot more peaceful and intelligent as opposed to MM6&7.


Actually nighon minotaurs are not necessarily aggressive. Some heroes in homm3 is inteligent and even magicians, so fact that they attack in mm7 is just same as when you are attacked by warlocks.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 10 2013, 15:34

Avonu wrote:
hellegennes wrote:Minotaurs, as I said before, were with Agar before Roland's capture, that's why they are not mentioned by Roland. But even if minotaurs were inside the castle, they could have been locked somewhere and Roland didn't bother to mention (or perhaps he didn't know). In any case, minotaurs created by Agar, before Heroes 1, is not inconsistent with what we know.

They lived inside (and outside) Kriegspire since their rebellion against Agar and warlocks. Mountains were rised by warlocks to imprisoment Minotaurs inside.
Did you read all these quotes from game?


I read them all; not that I needed them, I remember the game pretty well. Still I don't see how any of these contradicts my story, which, again is:

Agar creates Minotaurs before H1, moves inside Castle Kriegspire after Roland's capture and then his Minotaurs go berserk and he flees to his laboratory.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 10 2013, 19:29

hellegennes wrote:But Agar does not mention where these eyes come from, does he?


He doesn't - but the in-game animation does. The eye death sprite in MM6 clearly shows that they are artificial and not organic.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 10 2013, 20:24

GreatEmerald wrote:
hellegennes wrote:But Agar does not mention where these eyes come from, does he?


He doesn't - but the in-game animation does. The eye death sprite in MM6 clearly shows that they are artificial and not organic.


That's a detail. An artistic detail to be exact. Jurassic Park's dinosaurs were manufactured. Still, they were organic. Plus H3 eyes could just be a different breed.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 10 2013, 21:43

hellegennes wrote:Plus H3 eyes could just be a different breed.


The beholders and evil eyes throughout HoMM3 and For Blood and Honor were depicted exactly the same way. There were different breeds - Beholders are different from Evil Eyes - but they look very much alike and nothing like the ones from The Mandate of Heaven. Even on Axeoth, Evil Eyes are similar to the HoMM3 variant, and nothing like the Agar's ones.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 10 2013, 22:44

Still, artistic licence. There are no purple dragons in Enroth, either, but dragons were purple in Heroes 1. There are green, red and black dragons in the succession wars but MM6 only features red, blue and gold. Not to mention the fact that they look different. All monsters look different throughout the series, because, you know, it would be boring if they used the exact same concept each time. That's still artistic licence, not any meaningful distinction. At least not a compulsory distinction, you can still see it that way if you want. :)

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Postby Avonu » Apr 11 2013, 6:12

hellegennes wrote:Agar creates Minotaurs before H1, moves inside Castle Kriegspire after Roland's capture and then his Minotaurs go berserk and he flees to his laboratory.

Ekhm...

"Damn! It appears that I left the Memory Crystal in Kriegspire when we fled from my minotaurs. Never cross a bull with anything! I should have known the emotional instability of humans and the bad temper of bulls would have resulted in a complete disaster.

So, in your worlds, minotaurs were peace and quiete by nearly 30 years (between HoMM1 and MM6) and then they rebelled without reason? Make sense :P

And where you have any clues, who created or minotaurs in HoMM1 (or maybe they have another origin)? Only what we know for sure is that Agar crossed some men and bulls and his experiment gone wrong (as all of them :P).

hellegennes wrote:That's a detail.

Details are everything.

hellegennes wrote:There are no purple dragons in Enroth, either, but dragons were purple in Heroes 1. There are green, red and black dragons in the succession wars but MM6 only features red, blue and gold.

MM6 takes place 35 years after HoMM1 and 10 after HoMM2. Everything could changed, especially when you have magic and warlocks, who just love create/upgrade existing species and Alamar and Archibald lost their wars (their army scattered and maybe some of creatures moved away from Enroth or to abandon areas where no adventures would attack them).
We don't have any other game which show us, how Enroth looked like in times of these two Heores games.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 11 2013, 8:47

Avonu wrote:So, in your worlds, minotaurs were peace and quiete by nearly 30 years (between HoMM1 and MM6) and then they rebelled without reason? Make sense :P


Not without reason. I already said that the memory crystal could be the reason. It could be one of Agar's other experiments, it could be the influence of the Kreegans, it could be because of the castle, it litteraly could be anything. Minotaurs were obedient, then suddenly went berserk. I don't see why you have to accurately pinpoint the reason.


Avonu wrote:MM6 takes place 35 years after HoMM1 and 10 after HoMM2. Everything could changed, especially when you have magic and warlocks, who just love create/upgrade existing species and Alamar and Archibald lost their wars (their army scattered and maybe some of creatures moved away from Enroth or to abandon areas where no adventures would attack them).
We don't have any other game which show us, how Enroth looked like in times of these two Heores games.


Occam's razor: it's artistic licence.

You read too much into details, in a lore which never meant to be so tight. JVC and his teams never meant to create a detailed map of their product.

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 14 2013, 5:05

I think the Beholders didn't move to Antagarich, the technology of their creation must have spread rather quickly and at the time of H3 warlocks of Nighon have created quite a number of eyes.

Avonu wrote:So, in your worlds, minotaurs were peace and quiete by nearly 30 years (between HoMM1 and MM6) and then they rebelled without reason? Make sense :P

This part makes perfect sense. Slaves don't rebel everyday.
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Postby XEL II » Apr 14 2013, 7:33

I agree with Avonu that minotaurs in Kriegspire didn't rebel after Roland's capture. Roland clearly states in his letters that the castle was unused since the Succession Wars.

Agar obviously created monotaurs some time during (or before) HoMM1, some of them have moved or been moved to other parts of the world (the ones that settled in Jadame gained complete independence). The experiments in Kriegspire continued, until minotaurs rebelled during the Succession Wars, forcing Agar to retreat to his main lab, where he created evil eyes and beholders.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 14 2013, 12:01

XEL II wrote:I agree with Avonu that minotaurs in Kriegspire didn't rebel after Roland's capture. Roland clearly states in his letters that the castle was unused since the Succession Wars.


But they weren't in castle Kriegspire before Roland's capture. Agar didn't live in that castle until after Roland's capture. It wasn't his castle.

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Postby XEL II » Apr 14 2013, 14:28

hellegennes wrote:
XEL II wrote:I agree with Avonu that minotaurs in Kriegspire didn't rebel after Roland's capture. Roland clearly states in his letters that the castle was unused since the Succession Wars.


But they weren't in castle Kriegspire before Roland's capture. Agar didn't live in that castle until after Roland's capture. It wasn't his castle.

Roland's men didn't venture very deep into the castle, being primarily concerned with defense against the upcoming Kreegan attack, thus they could have avoided engaging minotaurs (at least in large numbers). And Agar's diary found in his laboratory also suggests (along with the statement in Roland's letters) that he fled from Kriegspire during the Succession Wars:
Damn! It appears that I left the Memory Crystal in Kriegspire when we fled from my minotaurs. Never cross a bull with anything! I should have known the emotional instability of humans and the bad temper of bulls would have resulted in a complete disaster. I’ll have to make a trip to the castle to get the Crystal, but first I’ll need some creatures to help me get past the minotaurs. Maybe if I were to create some sort of flying, magical eye…

Note that he is still concerned about the Memory Crystal that Archibald ordered him to extract information from.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 14 2013, 18:25

Roland clearly states that castle Kriegspire belonged to a necromancer. So it couldn't be Agar residing there. He had to had his own castle during the succession wars.

Also, on the matter of H3 beholders, it's quite clear that they are a newer breed of the same monster that Agar created. We can see it in the biography of Dungeon Overlord, Ajit:

Specialty: Ajit increases the Attack and Defense skills of any Beholders or Evil Eyes he commands for each level he attains after the 1st level.
Biography: Ajit studied carefully the works of Agar, the foolish wizard/ scientist of Enroth who accidentally created the beholders and evil eyes which he now commands, training a 'better breed' to be used in combat.


Courtesy of AOH

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Postby XEL II » Apr 14 2013, 19:24

He says "a supporter of my brother". That means at least any of HoMM2 classes, except probably sorceress or wizard, not just necromancer.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 14 2013, 19:45

XEL II wrote:He says "a supporter of my brother". That means at least any of HoMM2 classes, except probably sorceress or wizard, not just necromancer.


No, several lines down the letter he says:

"I will be much relieved if the treacherous necromancer who used to own this castle was paranoid enoigh to have dug an escape tunnel"

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 14 2013, 21:00

hellegennes wrote:Also, on the matter of H3 beholders, it's quite clear that they are a newer breed of the same monster that Agar created. We can see it in the biography of Dungeon Overlord, Ajit:


Hmm, nice catch. Though if we assume that Agar's eyes are indeed mechanical magical flying eyes, and the ones on Antagarich are biological magical floating eyes, it's a bit of discrepancy... Maybe a better breed is using the same magic, but on an actual biological creature, rather than on a mechanism. Which may give easier control of the creature, if it's attended to.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 14 2013, 21:19

GreatEmerald wrote:
hellegennes wrote:Also, on the matter of H3 beholders, it's quite clear that they are a newer breed of the same monster that Agar created. We can see it in the biography of Dungeon Overlord, Ajit:


Hmm, nice catch. Though if we assume that Agar's eyes are indeed mechanical magical flying eyes, and the ones on Antagarich are biological magical floating eyes, it's a bit of discrepancy... Maybe a better breed is using the same magic, but on an actual biological creature, rather than on a mechanism. Which may give easier control of the creature, if it's attended to.


Yes, this makes sense. But I think its settled now that Agar was at least the originator of the idea.

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 18 2013, 10:09

GreatEmerald wrote:Hmm, nice catch. Though if we assume that Agar's eyes are indeed mechanical magical flying eyes, and the ones on Antagarich are biological magical floating eyes, it's a bit of discrepancy...

Liches of Enroth also break like glass when you kill them (I mean the sound). As far as I see, Enroth eyes aren't mechanical. They're like organic bulbs, so are Antagarich ones, as you can see from unused explosion animation in Heroes 3.
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Postby koval321 » Apr 22 2013, 11:56

Not sure why dark elves look so red

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 25 2013, 19:40

Thinking of the topic, the music certainly sounds windy and not sunny. It gives impressions of autumn/spring, as well as everything else. (I mean autumn and spring here in Siberia)
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