Why is MM8 so eerie?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Arret
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Postby Arret » Apr 9 2013, 1:56

Secret_Holder wrote:Well if we were to look at some of the civilized races of Jadame, they include Lizardfolk, Minotaurs and Dark Elves.

They never seemed to be too welcome in Antagarich and Enroth, so why would they care?

PS: But how come there even are civilized minotaurs in Jadame. Weren't minotaurs created by that crazy wizard in Kriegspire?


I know Agar invented the Abominations and the Eyes, but I didn't think he was the source of the minotaurs.

Also as GreatEmerald says, Lizardmen are huge in Tatalia. It isn't shown as much in MM6&7, but they are very important in HoMM3.

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Postby Tress » Apr 9 2013, 7:09

I couldn't find it in the shop, so I assumed you'd have to find it in a dungeon, as in MM6-7


Actually DE books in mm7 (I think in mm6 as well) appears in guild shops once you find them in their appropriate place. In mm8 however I am pretty sure there was no special trick to it, and it could be bought in top level guild.
I know Agar invented the Abominations and the Eyes, but I didn't think he was the source of the minotaurs.


IIRC I think in there was written somewhere that minotaurs were results of genetic(well no exactly) experiments conducted in Kreigspire(at least there was letter that Agar had to bail from there due to enraged minotaurs which were referenced as creations(i think)). Which of course creates some inconsistency, since minotaurs are already present in HOMM1. Aside of that, thinking minotaurs would not be that much of inconsistency, as there is large time gap and some more intelligent strain of minotaurs could have deserted and settled in Jadame, also there is intelligent minotaurs present in Homm3 as warlocks/overlords. It could be compared to Deathclaws from fallout, they were genetically created weapon as well, but strain of them became intelligent due to further tampering and they settled as intelligent species.

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Postby XEL II » Apr 9 2013, 7:46

tress wrote:Which of course creates some inconsistency, since minotaurs are already present in HOMM1.

Not really, MM6 doesn't specify the time when the experiments started, only mentioning that they were continuing in Kriegspire. They easily could have begun in the time of HoMM1 or even earlier.

There are, however, some minor inconsitencies involving minotaurs in Heroes Chronicles. CotU mentions minotaurs in one of the texts, and in RotB they appear as part of a quest in one map. Those are mistakes, since these games took place really long before HoMM1. Although there is some possibility that the minotaurs were just created during Revolt of the Beastmasters.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » Apr 9 2013, 9:55

IIRC experiments mentioned in MM6 took place during Succesions Wars (HoMM2). There is however no mention that these experiments were result of creating all Minotaurs on Enroth (they have been in HoMM1 after all) or in Jadame.
I think it like Agar was trying his ways to create better bull-men then existed before.

I don't remember in which MM game, but there was mention, that first Minotaurs were created as magical guardians, not as cross between bulls and men (so they are magical beast, not chimeras). I don't know if this lore also apply to Enroth and Axeoth.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 9 2013, 10:14

Avonu wrote:IIRC experiments mentioned in MM6 took place during Succesions Wars (HoMM2). There is however no mention that these experiments were result of creating all Minotaurs on Enroth (they have been in HoMM1 after all) or in Jadame.
I think it like Agar was trying his ways to create better bull-men then existed before.

Yea, that's my take on this as well.

Avonu wrote:I don't remember in which MM game, but there was mention, that first Minotaurs were created as magical guardians, not as cross between bulls and men (so they are magical beast, not chimeras). I don't know if this lore also apply to Enroth and Axeoth.

I think that was World of XEEN, although I also don't remember it that clearly.

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Postby XEL II » Apr 9 2013, 12:15

Avonu wrote:IIRC experiments mentioned in MM6 took place during Succesions Wars (HoMM2). There is however no mention that these experiments were result of creating all Minotaurs on Enroth (they have been in HoMM1 after all) or in Jadame.
I think it like Agar was trying his ways to create better bull-men then existed before.

The experiments stopped during Succession Wars when minotaurs rebelled. As I already mentioned, there is no indication as to when they started in MM6, so no discrepancy with HoMM1.
Their MM8 race description specifically states that Jadame minotaurs are magically engineered creatures that became independent.

Xeenian minotaurs were the result of a curse placed on people by the witches of Lakeside. Some of them were sold to Alamar and Count Blackfang and used as guards.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Arret » Apr 9 2013, 13:18

What about the minotaur in the Maze from Hell in MM3?

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 9 2013, 13:48

I don't think JVC planned all references and appearances of characters and monsters that carefully. He resorted more to mythological figures than a really tight lore. But I do think that minotaurs in MM6 were the same as H1 minotaurs, all created by Agar a long time ago. Note that JVC probably did not intented to merge the two series when he was working on Heroes 1, hence the inconsistencies between H1 and MM6 (at least in the descriptions found in Ironfist's letters, since all the "build it and they will come" concept and of course the castle-building gameplay did not really reflect MM6's world).

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Postby Avonu » Apr 9 2013, 15:30

XEL II wrote:The experiments stopped during Succession Wars when minotaurs rebelled. As I already mentioned, there is no indication as to when they started in MM6, so no discrepancy with HoMM1.

And somehow Roland spent night in Castle Krigspire 3 years before MM6.

We reached Castle Kriegspire a day ahead of the enemy and
have fortified our position in anticipation of attack. This is the last
message you will receive from me until we are liberated by the army
you and Humphrey are preparing.
I thank the gods that I reserved this particular castle as a
future reward for some loyal knight or nobleman. It has been
unused since the Succession Wars, having formerly belonged to a
supporter of my brother. Provisions here are meager — we are counting
on resupply from either Rocklin or you, as we can only hold out fo r
two weeks with the available rations . The forces we have here are
barely adequate for a defense, but we should be able to last until your
reinforcements arrive. Hurry !
We have spent some time exploring the castle, finding many secret
passages and surprises; perhaps we may even find an escape tunnel !
If the wall is breached, the traps, pits, and secret ways will serve us
well. I hope it never comes to that, but it is best to be prepared. I
w ill be much relieved if the treacherous necromancer who used to
own this castle was paranoid enough to have dug an escape
tunnel.

Kriegspire
"Castle Kriegspire, at one time, was the center of magical experimentation in creating creatures. Now, it's abandoned and the creatures run rampant inside. The volcano it rests in was created to keep all the monsters in."

Agar
"Agar, one of Archibald's sorcerers, was the most skilled of the experimenters in Kriegspire. His monsters are the ones crawling around the castle now. He left with the rest of the mages, but no one knows where he went to."

Minotaur
Some of the minotaurs escaped from Kriegspire and now roam in and around the volcano surrounding the old castle.

Earth Elemental
"Earth elementals prowl around the area of Kriegspire. Free from the mages that summoned them, theses elementals look to destroy whatever they come across."

"I was one of the mages studying at Kriegspire when the creatures there went completely out of control. In my escape from the castle, I left a valuable item behind, a jeweled egg. This egg is a family heirloom that goes back in my family as far as the Silence. I have tried a few times to get it back, but the creatures there are too powerful for me. I’d gladly trade a generous sum of money to get my egg back."

"Kriegspire is the castle inside the volcano. We mages were forced to raise the earth around the castle to try and prevent the creatures from overrunning the surrounding towns. Now they’re contained inside, and that’s where the egg is."

Agar exposition
"Damn! It appears that I left the Memory Crystal in Kriegspire when we fled from my minotaurs. Never cross a bull with anything! I should have known the emotional instability of humans and the bad temper of bulls would have resulted in a complete disaster. I’ll have to make a trip to the castle to get the Crystal, but first I’ll need some creatures to help me get past the minotaurs. Maybe if I were to create some sort of flying, magical eye…"

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Postby Secret_Holder » Apr 9 2013, 15:42

Arret wrote:What about the minotaur in the Maze from Hell in MM3?


Convergent evolution, mayhaps?

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 9 2013, 16:40

Avonu wrote:And somehow Roland spent night in Castle Krigspire 3 years before MM6.


If you're suggesting that Agar created the minotaurs after Roland's capture, you create a second inconsistency, because Agar certainly created the beholders after he created the minotaurs. But we see beholders in Erathia when Catherine arrives, which should have been a little while after Roland began his expedition, thus Agar should had created both monster types before all these. Most probably he created the minotaurs in his laboratory and moved with them in Kriegspire after Roland's capture. At first his minotaurs were fine, then they started going crazy (it could be because of the constant buzzing coming from the memory crystal).

So, here's your story:

Agar created his minions before Heroes 1, then moved with them in Kriegspire after Roland's capture and then his minions started acting crazy. That's when he returned to his lab and became a lich. Note that castle Kriegspire wasn't his. It belonged to a necromancer, according to Roland's account.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 9 2013, 20:48

hellegennes wrote:If you're suggesting that Agar created the minotaurs after Roland's capture, you create a second inconsistency, because Agar certainly created the beholders after he created the minotaurs. But we see beholders in Erathia when Catherine arrives, which should have been a little while after Roland began his expedition, thus Agar should had created both monster types before all these.


Antagarich beholders have nothing to do with Agar's abominations (sorry for the pun, couldn't help it :D ). The former are clearly organic in origin, and breed in Pillars of Eyes.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 9 2013, 21:49

Who said that these pillars of eyes are not artificial, organic nature notwithstanding?

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Postby Secret_Holder » Apr 9 2013, 22:05

Weren't Clanker and Agar compadres, or am I imagining stuff?

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Postby Avonu » Apr 9 2013, 22:06

hellegennes wrote:If you're suggesting that Agar created the minotaurs after Roland's capture, you create a second inconsistency, because Agar certainly created the beholders after he created the minotaurs. But we see beholders in Erathia when Catherine arrives, which should have been a little while after Roland began his expedition, thus Agar should had created both monster types before all these. Most probably he created the minotaurs in his laboratory and moved with them in Kriegspire after Roland's capture. At first his minotaurs were fine, then they started going crazy (it could be because of the constant buzzing coming from the memory crystal).

1. Agar didn't create Beholders - he created Evil Eyes. :P
2. Between Roland Crusade and HoMM3/MM6 3 years has pass. Enough time for Evil Eyes to migrate to Antagarich.
3. I am not suggest that Agar created Minotaurs, I think he experimented with new breed of better Mino spicies.


hellegennes wrote:Agar created his minions before Heroes 1, then moved with them in Kriegspire after Roland's capture and then his minions started acting crazy. That's when he returned to his lab and became a lich. Note that castle Kriegspire wasn't his. It belonged to a necromancer, according to Roland's account.

1. Kriegspire was castle without lord since HoMM2 (ten years before MM6)...
2. ...yet it was populated by rebelled Minotaurs since Warlocks ran away...
3. ...and yet Roland found haven in Kriegspire walls 3 years before MM6 and he didn't mention any Minotaurs.

My conclusion:
Warlocks did their (new) experiments in Kriegspire ("foul creatures and evil spirits have appeared throughout the land") after Roland capture or this is another plothole in story.


GreatEmerald wrote:Antagarich beholders have nothing to do with Agar's abominations (sorry for the pun, couldn't help it :D ). The former are clearly organic in origin, and breed in Pillars of Eyes.


Ajit wrote:Ajit studied carefully the works of Agar, the foolish wizard/ scientist of Enroth who accidentally created the beholders and evil eyes which he now commands, training a 'better breed' to be used in combat.



Secret_Holder wrote:Weren't Clanker and Agar compadres, or am I imagining stuff?

Agar was Archibald's minion, who wanted to create new monsters but had not enough brain cells for that. :P And Xanthor's (from MM8) uncle too.
Clancker was enchanter who creates many powerful artifacts and sold them during Successions Wars to Archibald by Regnan pirates.
Last edited by Avonu on Apr 9 2013, 22:16, edited 6 times in total.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 9 2013, 22:07

hellegennes wrote:Who said that these pillars of eyes are not artificial, organic nature notwithstanding?


Nobody. And they probably are, given that you build them in towns. But that still means that Antagarich beholders have nothing to do with Agar's beholders.

Hmm... Antagarich...

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Re: Why is MM8 so eerie?

Postby BoardGuest808888 » Apr 10 2013, 5:42

GreatEmerald wrote:Jadame. And they aren't clueless and all. It felt to me like they rather wanted some peaceful living away from it all, that's all.


Yeah. I meant Jadame.

On the peaceful thing, I'm not real sure. Seemed to me they're there to even old scores, not to mention perhaps, trying to make new ones too.

The cleric of Sun and Necro guild were about to go on each other's neck. Quixote's knights were on the rampage for new dragon hoard to loot, and seemed to target the minotaurs next. The Eeps continued to be everyone's pest. While the ogres took a self-appointed role as the new bullies. The Regnans were at the best at making everything worse. While the dark elves were about ready to somehow profit from those all.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 10 2013, 8:53

GreatEmerald wrote:
hellegennes wrote:Who said that these pillars of eyes are not artificial, organic nature notwithstanding?


Nobody. And they probably are, given that you build them in towns. But that still means that Antagarich beholders have nothing to do with Agar's beholders.


But Agar does not mention where these eyes come from, does he?

Avonu wrote:2. Between Roland Crusade and HoMM3/MM6 3 years has pass. Enough time for Evil Eyes to migrate to Antagarich.


No, H3 begins before MM6 and the two continents are separated by a vast sea. It makes no sense this way.

Overall, there is no account as to when Agar created his minions. Inconsistencies in the timeline exist throughtout the series. Minotaurs, as I said before, were with Agar before Roland's capture, that's why they are not mentioned by Roland. But even if minotaurs were inside the castle, they could have been locked somewhere and Roland didn't bother to mention (or perhaps he didn't know). In any case, minotaurs created by Agar, before Heroes 1, is not inconsistent with what we know.

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Postby Avonu » Apr 10 2013, 11:12

hellegennes wrote:No, H3 begins before MM6 and the two continents are separated by a vast sea. It makes no sense this way.

H3 starts after MM6 begining (Queen Catherine just sailed to Erathia in MM6 and HoMM3 starts when she landed in Antagrich after 7 weeks sea travel) but overall these two games takes place in same time. MM6 ends somewhere in June 1165, while HoMM3 ends in August 1167 (acording to Archibald's Diary from MM7).

hellegennes wrote:Minotaurs, as I said before, were with Agar before Roland's capture, that's why they are not mentioned by Roland. But even if minotaurs were inside the castle, they could have been locked somewhere and Roland didn't bother to mention (or perhaps he didn't know). In any case, minotaurs created by Agar, before Heroes 1, is not inconsistent with what we know.

They lived inside (and outside) Kriegspire since their rebellion against Agar and warlocks. Mountains were rised by warlocks to imprisoment Minotaurs inside.
Did you read all these quotes from game?

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Postby Bones_xa » Apr 10 2013, 14:35

Avonu wrote:3. I am not suggest that Agar created Minotaurs, I think he experimented with new breed of better Mino spicies.

Makes sense to me, because the minotaurs in MM8 seem much different than those in MM6. Even look different.
In MM8 they seem a lot more peaceful and intelligent as opposed to MM6&7.
They don't just go berserk and attack you, able to use magic, hold an alliance. They also look more totally beast-like in MM8 rather than a cross of half human-bull.


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