Why did NWC abandon Enroth?

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hellegennes
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Why did NWC abandon Enroth?

Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 12:22

That's a question I was never able to answer myself. I understand their decision in moving partly away from the first 5 of the series, when they released MM6; the first story arc was concluded. However, it felt that with Enroth there were many loose ends and there was no reason in blowing off the planet.

So why did they do it? My only guess is that JVC was not really involved with either Heroes 4 or MM9 hence they didn't have his creative input and did not know his intentions on continuing the story. But that's what I think, is there an official answer to this question? Did NWC ever give the reasoning behind this move?

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 1 2013, 14:15

JVC was involved in HoMM4. Though probably not as much, as he's credited as a level designer, as opposed to producer, like he was in HoMM3. And he's not credited in MM9 at all (aside from the mandatory series creator credit).

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 14:38

True, he was involved with Heroes 4 but that was mostly in the early part of development and it mostly had to do with gameplay design, as far as I can remember.

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 2 2013, 8:29

AFAIR, it was the opposite, he was involved at the later stages.
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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Apr 3 2013, 8:31

Story can go forever, yet I suspect that be what exactly JVC didn't want to happen.

Enroth was good, yes, but with the Kreegans and elemental lords, the thing was already saturated. Not much room for anything anymore.

Even with the potentials of dark elves and trolls as playable race in MM 8, it won't go anywhere anymore. Always went back to the Kreegans.

In other words, Enroth must be destroyed for otherwise no further game (concept, environment, etc) would be possible.

But this be just my guess though.

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Postby Tress » Apr 3 2013, 9:04

Enroth was good, yes, but with the Kreegans and elemental lords, the thing was already saturated. Not much room for anything anymore.


There was plenty they could do. For example they could give closure to Archibalds story not just dump him on island, then probably kill him along with 90% of Enroths population, or actually utilize Nicolais character, not just make bad refference in MM IX. As for playing fields, there was plenty blind spots to use which never were used in RPG's like barbarian territories from homm3(Krewlod), and again actually utilize Kilgore, not just add his wife to badly written and ripped of two blade story. List can go on, as they made bunch of decent characters in armagedons blade which were never properly used afterwards(and they could be in RPG game to a good extent). Jadame in fact was already artificially attached to rest of world, so in mm8 we already can see somewhat lazy writing.

In other words, Enroth must be destroyed for otherwise no further game (concept, environment, etc) would be possible.

If they could attach Jadame , which no one knew about before (or afterwards for that matter), and utilized about 2 major and couple minor persons from previous games then there is nothing preventing from transiting to new continent/world in much more gentle way. For example they could develop Jadame for Homm games.
I cant even think of any decent setting where old characters are dropped of so crudely as for homm4 transition. For example if we take star war universe - none is just killing of luke skywalker just to force new characters. Well they made almost separate setting of old republic without killing all original characters.NWC on other hand made half hearted attemept at not only ripping of MTG mechanics but also ripping of story line of destroying world, but they also did it without good explanation(well there as 1 chronicle but still). There decent build up that would justify worlds destruction. In MTG Urza setting, worlds destruction at least was justified by huge interplanar war, which gradually eneded with half characters dead and other half dead due to Urzas contingency plan. It wasnt 3 lines at the start of book, he built legacy for several settings.

Even with the potentials of dark elves and trolls as playable race in MM 8, it won't go anywhere anymore. Always went back to the Kreegans.

Which we so avoided in homm4 necromancers story line.....

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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Apr 3 2013, 9:55

tress wrote:There was plenty they could do. For example they could give closure to Archibalds story not just dump him on island, then probably kill him along with 90% of Enroths population, or actually utilize Nicolais character, not just make bad refference in MM IX.


Yes, but there would always be the same over and over. It was always the Ironfists. It was always the Gryphonhearts. It was always Erathia. Sandro. Alamar. Kilgore. Kreegans. Conflux.

It was always about them. Not a chance for new stories. New people. New heroes. New epic. And this might be what JVC wanted to avoid in the first place.

As you might have suggested, even with the Jadame settings, the story still couldn't go any further than what was. Ironfists. Kreegans. Conflux. Armageddon's Blade. Gelu. Repeat ad lib. Jadame might be a new place, but everything you seen there were old things. Old conflicts. Not new ones.

Of course, it was always good if we can go on with the old stories. But when we attach too much on that, nothing else can took place. There would be no new heroes rising. No new kingdoms emerge. No new villains to fight. No new artifact to assemble. No new quest to do.

Even the new environment of Axeoth with all the new creatures won't make sense. How else giant mantises and man-eating plants suddenly exist in Enroth when none were in the past ?

The pesky Kreegans were the only remains of connections to the old world. Perhaps to satisfy those who still liked to see loose ends tied. But no more should be there.

For anything to blossom anew, something else should die first. Otherwise there would be no place left.

Seeing Enroth get blown just like that was a pain. But it was a necessity as well.

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Postby Tress » Apr 3 2013, 10:37

Yes, but there would always be the same over and over. It was always the Ironfists. It was always the Gryphonhearts. It was always Erathia. Sandro. Alamar. Kilgore. Kreegans. Conflux.


First of all, old characters were underused.They created characters like Kilgore and they never went with them anywhere. Nikolai appears in grand total of 1 Enroth setting game. Archibald is never used again, and his storyline is cut short abruptly. There are plenty of books and setting which introduce new characters/conflicts etc without stomping on previous author work. Gelu is extremely misused in favor of writers pet character.

Jadame might be a new place, but everything you seen there were old things. Old conflicts. Not new ones.


Jadame - setting is again never reused and thus heavily underused(either they shouldn't have introduced in first place or they should go on with it). They introduce dark elves, intelligent minotaurs, but those concepts never go past mm8. MM8 could as well be stand alone game if not for brief appearance of Royal pair and Sandro. They had opportunity to introduce their own version of dark elves, but instead they introduce some trader/darknes/spider worshiping hybrid concept(power structure aside of traders, culture, conflicts) of which is never elaborated past bits we are fed in mm8.
Of course, it was always good if we can go on with the old stories. But when we attach too much on that, nothing else can took place. There would be no new heroes rising. No new kingdoms emerge. No new villains to fight. No new artifact to assemble. No new quest to do.


And that is again where Axeoths concept fails, we wipe slate clean, but they still cling on last remaining bits of old lore and creating quests which could easily be fitted into old world. We have some power play with gryphonheart throne(again with characters who are mysteriously appeared), which could easily fit with old characters or in old setting. Why we cant fit Gauldoth in front of resurgent Jadame's Necromancer guild if we slightly alter writing, or set Tawni in Regnan setting, which in fact would be good opportunity to develop whole Regna empire thing, which was often reffered to but never properly elaborated apart from mm8 which did not featured it as much as it could. Does we really need to blow half of the world to set stage for some royal intrigues, or elf love story?

We again are forced to listen to Tarnums righteous philosophy on how he is trying to redeem himself. So how are thees new characters? Why was it necessary to wipe slate clean and then still use tarnum who probably already bored everyone to tears in 8! chronicles.Whole barbarian story line is never about Axeoth, but about Tarnum and his heir/son/apprentice, new setting was completely irrelevant, In fact they could have used Kilgore in old setting in place Vogel, in this case we would have developed villain in place, which could give better immersion and it would give much better closure to Tarnums story line .

So what are we exactly gaining by blowing up world. 6 Characters ,which could as easily be set in old world, whom again were never again used(for example they could be used for attached mm game as lords which gives quest, rather than some complitelly unfitting nordic setting which could as well be separate non-MM game at all). Only thing NWC gained with this wipe, is that it allowed to set "some " old characters in new world with complete disregard for previous parts - aka lazy writing. Sure they made effort in original homm4 in terms of amount of text and style, but for me it had heavy feeling that attached writers did not wanted to bother with old mm series and just rebooted series in crude way, bringing over few characters(not even characters but their names only) to maintain seeming connection with old games. Ashan at least does not literally stomp on other author work, they just write parallel story line with only few token references.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 3 2013, 12:13

To my eyes, there were enough loose ends which were purposefully left untied. Archibald's story was not meant to end there, in my opinion. The way he supposedly retires is suspicious and his tone is highly ironic in my view, when he replies to Roland's words (the score is even now brother) with "yes, goodbye". Archibald may very well be the most interesting villain of the MM universe. He is not only intelligent but educated as well. His schemes are complex as he is a complex character. He is not a mindless ruthless moronic dictator, he has much more depth than that.

Then, you have MM8. JVC had the perfect opportunity to end Enroth there and then, since the whole plot revolves around tying the story of the Kreegans, by having Escaton destroy the world. And you succeed in saving the world just for it to be destroyed 5 minutes later, in the intro of Heroes 4? I don't think so. This makes MM8 totally pointless.

Also, you can pretty much explain mantises and all sorts of new monsters by moving on to another continent of Enroth. The exact same thing happened with MM7 and MM8.

Finally, I don't see how having some characters appear in more than one title deprives next instalments of room for new characters and stories. MM6 happens in Enroth, same as Heroes 1-2, but manages to introduce new characters and plotlines. Heroes 3 manages to introduce new characters and plotlines, all the while continuing the story arc which began with Heroes 1. Heroes 3 is about Catherine, which we saw leaving to attend to her father's funeral, in MM6, not knowing back then that this little thing would blossom to a new story arc and also justify Catherine's long absence from Enroth. MM8 moves on to an entirely different plotline, which has the Kreegans only as a background and the royal couple appearing only in cameo, without having much to do with the story.

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 4 2013, 9:05

tress wrote:List can go on, as they made bunch of decent characters in armagedons blade which were never properly used afterwards(and they could be in RPG game to a good extent). Jadame in fact was already artificially attached to rest of world, so in mm8 we already can see somewhat lazy writing.

The characters you describe are local, they don't make up an evil that threatens the whole planet, no global conflict.

I agree about MM8 being kinda pointless. World's destruction sets loose ends that we might explore in MM8.5.
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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Apr 5 2013, 0:17

They rebooted because the lore's messed up by Armageddon Blade, which was supposed to follow from Might and Magic 7's dark ending

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Postby Secret_Holder » Apr 5 2013, 21:41

ywhtptgtfo wrote:They rebooted because the lore's messed up by Armageddon Blade, which was supposed to follow from Might and Magic 7's dark ending


This is probably true

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Postby Dharcness » Apr 6 2013, 2:33

GrayFace wrote:The characters you describe are local, they don't make up an evil that threatens the whole planet, no global conflict.

I agree about MM8 being kinda pointless. World's destruction sets loose ends that we might explore in MM8.5.


They can do many things with the characters. Let's take Prince Nicholai for example, the story is there is a plague that turn everyone in contact with it into undead. And then Nicholai went to investigate it and find the source comes from Vori. So he went to Vori and discover a blade stuck on ice inside a cave. When he pluck the blade from the ice Nicholai become crazy and start to kill people left and right and then turn them into undead. And so we have a Might and Magic IX : Wrath of the Crazy Prince. :P

Or

They can make Deftclaw Redreaver (The dragon leader from MM8) become crazy (because he couldn't stand all the adventurers who poke in and out of his cave) and started cataclysm. Giant tsunami appeared all over the coastline. The highest mountain in Jadame exploded and Lord of Fire appear and turn the place into Fireland (oh wait, they already did something similar in MM8) :P

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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Apr 8 2013, 6:26

Naah. The old characters were already overused. Archibald has been around since what, Heroes 2 Succession War ? Nicolai shouldn't be mentioned at all. He was never more than second stringer wannabe. There were too many about the Ironfists already.

The one difference between H2 and H3 was perhaps each and every heroes in H3 got a bio. Did this mean we'd have to play a campaign for each of them, whatever irrelevant that will be ? Enroth was fed up with them.

Sadly, even Jadame also. Nearly 70% of the story of MM 8 was about welcoming Catherine's entourage, Sandro's Necro Guild and Xanthor's instructions, which were all involves old timers. U wiped out entire Regna just for what ? The whims of Catherine ?

Enroth was about two, and two things only. The bickering between Archibald and Roland, and alien invasion that befell Erathia. Once the both concluded, what was left to talk about ?

On the other hand, Axeoth was about new things. Sure, old timers were still around. But they no longer have any significant role, other than showing their newly found insignificance. And that's what they did best.

Thing was, either royal intrigues or elven sick love story wouldn't even happened if the world wasn't blown apart first.

How was it possible for people like Gauldoth, or Emilia or Tawni or whoever to carve their own part of the story with such powerful old timers like Sandro, Thant, Gavin Magnus, Gelu, etc around in their impenetrable bastion of self-righteousness ? Even if they could make it, it was largely irrelevant since they have nothing to do with either the Ironfist or the Kreegans.

And Kilgore ? We already have one campaign specifically for him. Was that not enough ?

And Tarnum ? Tarnum was there to explain things. He was the narrator, not the actor. The story was not about Tarnum. Thus Tarnum did not fail the story since he was never part of it.

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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Apr 8 2013, 6:44

Dharcness wrote:They can do many things with the characters. Let's take Prince Nicholai for example, the story is there is a plague that turn everyone in contact with it into undead. And then Nicholai went to investigate it and find the source comes from Vori. So he went to Vori and discover a blade stuck on ice inside a cave. When he pluck the blade from the ice Nicholai become crazy and start to kill people left and right and then turn them into undead. And so we have a Might and Magic IX : Wrath of the Crazy Prince. :P

Or

They can make Deftclaw Redreaver (The dragon leader from MM8) become crazy (because he couldn't stand all the adventurers who poke in and out of his cave) and started cataclysm. Giant tsunami appeared all over the coastline. The highest mountain in Jadame exploded and Lord of Fire appear and turn the place into Fireland (oh wait, they already did something similar in MM8) :P


I don't think so. After the Kreegans episode, whatever story left or made up afterwards would felt anti-climactic. Not to mention impossible.

The Kreegans were supposed to be the archvillains of the whole thing. The ones even the Ancients found it difficult to be against.

How u can rival that ? How someone or something could actually succeed in doing things the Kreegans were intent to do, whatever it was, with all their might and power ?

And if that someone did not do something as dramatic as the Kreegans, then where were the thrill ?

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 8 2013, 7:13

There is no archvillain in Enroth. There are villains in the storylines of all relevant games, but they're not always the same. Also, I don't see how using the same villain is boring, considering the series had also Sheltem for, like... 5 games in a row. And I don't understand why someone needs to destroy or take over the world to make for a good and powerfull plot.

Also, the stories of H4 heroes were mediocre, but I don't see how they couldn't have happened in Enroth.

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Postby Tress » Apr 8 2013, 9:23

They rebooted because the lore's messed up by Armageddon Blade, which was supposed to follow from Might and Magic 7's dark ending


This is probably true


Actually I faill to see how AB plot is in any way at fault. It had plot like any other, and there is nothing that would prevent to create further stories. In fact they had good opportunities to use characters introduced by AB. Instead they only use Gelu in prequel, and use him as lame side villain in Chroncles(after all who wouldn't want to play for Tarnum.... again)
I don't think so. After the Kreegans episode, whatever story left or made up afterwards would felt anti-climactic. Not to mention impossible.

The Kreegans were supposed to be the archvillains of the whole thing. The ones even the Ancients found it difficult to be against.


First of all Kreegans were only used for 2 mm games(and in mm7 they have marginal effect) and as main villain for 1 homm game, so not much for a grand villain. Also Kreegans never had any personalities(aside of Xeron), so they fall short as villains we can associate. THey are essentially sort of Zerg of mm world, but even in SC, they introduce personifications of zerg so they have face. As faceless insect they never seemed much of threat to me in mm games. Even while they are supposed to be main villains of mm6, I actually never felt their presence until very end of game. Besides even for all world destroying thing they retained Kreegans in Homm4 so it again it makes this semi reboot argument invalid.

Sadly, even Jadame also. Nearly 70% of the story of MM 8 was about welcoming Catherine's entourage, Sandro's Necro Guild and Xanthor's instructions, which were all involves old timers. U wiped out entire Regna just for what ? The whims of Catherine ?


Actually to me, all old timers had just a cameo appearances in mm8 rather than any significant part of plot. Catherine may just as well not be there. There could be just random sage who could forge key.

How was it possible for people like Gauldoth, or Emilia or Tawni or whoever to carve their own part of the story with such powerful old timers like Sandro, Thant, Gavin Magnus, Gelu, etc around in their impenetrable bastion of self-righteousness ? Even if they could make it, it was largely irrelevant since they have nothing to do with either the Ironfist or the Kreegans.


Actually I faill to see point here. Under this logic, introducing new characters would be impossible. Still they easily introduced Gelu and other AB personally in addition to Ironfists, without problems, Gelu had his story line, and so did Roland. As I mentioned previously, they could have set Tawni on Regna as part of power struggle which arises after Regna's power base is destroyed in wake of mm8. They could set Gauldoth as part of reborn necromancers guild, which would be destroyed in mm8.
Worse however , in Axeoth they in fact did what you said they should not. They introduced Emilia, and pitted it against established Magnus in black/white battle. I couldn't help to root for Magnus as they destroyed character with each next mission. That was really horrible, when you see character you know destroyed by some mary sue.

And Kilgore ? We already have one campaign specifically for him. Was that not enough ?

And Tarnum ? Tarnum was there to explain things. He was the narrator, not the actor. The story was not about Tarnum. Thus Tarnum did not fail the story since he was never part of it.


Kilgores campaign established him as a leader. They failed to do anything else with character (aside of writing few lines, how his hordes rampaged until reckoning). So why exactly same (homm4)barbarian camapaing story could not be used, but with exception that Kilgore is villain, and its Tarnums duty to save his people from him. As for narrator thing - where is difference that he is not on field as unit. He is just as present as any character. I would say that he had more lines than his protege .

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Postby Arret » Apr 9 2013, 2:00

Well considering MM8 was just supposed to be an expansion to MM7 until 3DO escalated the project, it makes sense most of the appearances were just cameos.

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Postby Talin_Trollbane » Apr 9 2013, 10:28

actually i know i have read something about NWC rebooting it all because of messy plotlines.
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Postby XEL II » Apr 9 2013, 12:08

That was definitely on some fan-site, NWC never said something like that. Not to mention that the plotlines weren't messy, and abrupt destruction of Enroth was actually damaging to them, leaving some of them unresolved.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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