Are you happy that MMX is in development?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Are you happy that MMX is in development?

Yes
35
85%
No
6
15%
 
Total votes: 41

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » Mar 31 2013, 21:56

Konfuzius wrote:I don't know if I am more qualified than Holder because I only played MM6,7,8 and a lil bit H5 but what from what I've read the original universe had the Creators and the Acients, right? And according to ASHAN lore there are dragons who created the universe, right?

What if the Dragons are Ancients AND Creators? Esepcially Urgash seems to fit the role as "Creator". And the rest seems to fit the role as Ancients (don't know much about this, maybe the Shadow Dragon is a Creator as well).


Nope. The Ancients are futuristic humans, who have mastered control of both technology and elemental forces. The Creators are whoever made the Kreegan, and are enemies of the Ancients.

Secret_Holder wrote:You'll be hard pressed to find any sci-fi references in HoMM 1-4, so I don't really see what you're fussing about.


And yet it never contradicted it. The Kreegan were also very prominent. Their backstory was presented in MMs, and the politics were presented in HoMMs, but they are one and the same - aliens.

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hellegennes
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Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 0:19

GreatEmerald wrote:I expected them to continue the story. The two games made a nice introduction into Axeoth, but still left a lot of blank space for further development. Creating another world, and especially another universe, was not needed in the slightest.


I could not disagree more. Yes, they could have stayed in the old universe. But who says they didn't? They can introduce links to the older MM games any time they want, and bring on the Ancients, etc.

Continuing on a world that already had produced a controversial title* and a complete disaster of a game (MM9) would not be the wisest thing to do. Plus, many fans, me included, disliked Axeoth and its lore and found it to be generic and uninteresting; not that Ashan is excellent, but I do like it more than Axeoth. Also, don't forget that these games were largely unfinished so Ubisoft would not know what the intentions of the original developers were.


* Heroes 4 was controversial, because of its many gameplay changes which divided the fanbase and also was released slightly earlier, with a really crappy AI and quite a few major and minor bugs.

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hellegennes
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Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 0:43

GreatEmerald wrote:And yet it never contradicted it. The Kreegan were also very prominent. Their backstory was presented in MMs, and the politics were presented in HoMMs, but they are one and the same - aliens.


Why, Ubisoft games never contradicted the original universe! Even if the Dragons of Ashan are just godlike beings, how does that contradict the Ancients? The Ancients are not the creators of the universe, they were just a colonizing advanced civilisation. They did not seed the entire universe themselves. Couldn't Ashan be one of the 100 billion planets* that exist on the same galaxy the Ancients are, which did not have anything to do with them?

Now, about those Kreegans, yes, they are supposed to be the same race in Heroes and MM games, but in Heroes they are not outright called Kreegans but Demons. Their lineup resembles much more a traditional version of hell, which comprises demons, familiars and devils. They also look nothing like MM Kreegans, although they are supposed to be the same race. This choice was made in order not to alienate Heroes fans who did not play the MM games. Everyone was happy, because to Heroes fans they were just demons, but to MM fans they were a continuation of the MM storyline.

Heroes fans never saw an alien race in the demon race of Heroes; that's why the Forge met with such heavy criticism, before it even made its way to the game.


* that could very well be the number of planets in the Milky Way, according to what we know today.

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Postby Kalah » Apr 1 2013, 1:30

In case somebody don't know why Ubisoft left the old universe and why it is unlikely they will change their minds, picture a series of books, films or somesuch. You are tasked to continue the series, but all you have access to is the works - neither the people who created the originals nor any information about the creative process. You can probably still do it, but it's very time-consuming. It's also easy to get things wrong and expose yourself to criticism from the fans who pick up on things you missed.

Ubi decided to "start fresh" so nobody could say they misinterpreted the roles of previous protagonists and so that they didn't have to spend a lot of time getting to know the old universe in detail.
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Postby Secret_Holder » Apr 1 2013, 1:58

XEL II wrote:
Secret_Holder wrote:COLONY is the world which contains Enroth, Erathia, Jadame, Karigor and Regna.

That world is called Enroth, which is referenced in MM6, HoMM3: SoD and MM8. The term COLONY is from MM Tribute, a fan project. Nowhere in any game or supplementary material by NWC this name for the planet is even mentioned.

MMT contains several other inconsistencies with canon, such as Ethric the Mad (the first necromancer in the world) becoming lich in 1083 AS and Karigor being the northern part of Jadame, when it actually is a small island southeast of Enroth.


I know this, as I said above.
Seeing as Roland is King of Enroth, but not Antagarich, and Jadame has no king, I prefer the term "COLONY" even though its fan-made.
It circumvents confusion.

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Postby tolich » Apr 1 2013, 5:22

GreatEmerald wrote:The Ancients are futuristic humans, who have mastered control of both technology and elemental forces. The Creators are whoever made the Kreegan, and are enemies of the Ancients.
And both are game creators, say, NWC. As Creators, they create vast worlds, and inhabit them with people and monsters, create conflicts, disasters and calamities to challenge the player. As Ancients, they award the winner. Yes, MM3 has some information about the war between these two sides of game creators, it's but an expansion to joke.

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Postby Arret » Apr 1 2013, 7:22

Konfuzius wrote:I don't know if I am more qualified than Holder because I only played MM6,7,8 and a lil bit H5 but what from what I've read the original universe had the Creators and the Acients, right? And according to ASHAN lore there are dragons who created the universe, right?

What if the Dragons are Ancients AND Creators? Esepcially Urgash seems to fit the role as "Creator". And the rest seems to fit the role as Ancients (don't know much about this, maybe the Shadow Dragon is a Creator as well).


If you were writing the game and wanted to drag Ashan into the MM universe it could be done, but it currently is not the case and seems very unlikely to happen given Ubi's track record.

The easiest way would be to treat Ashan as one of the worlds that never connected back to the main gate following the Silence and the dragons are the primitive religion of a world that "fell into barbarism after the war". The world has either not discovered remains of ancient technology or was simply never seeded by the ancients. There has been no indication that this is or ever will be the case, but it is an option for the MM10 developers.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 1 2013, 7:31

hellegennes wrote:I could not disagree more. Yes, they could have stayed in the old universe. But who says they didn't? They can introduce links to the older MM games any time they want, and bring on the Ancients, etc.

Continuing on a world that already had produced a controversial title* and a complete disaster of a game (MM9) would not be the wisest thing to do. Plus, many fans, me included, disliked Axeoth and its lore and found it to be generic and uninteresting; not that Ashan is excellent, but I do like it more than Axeoth. Also, don't forget that these games were largely unfinished so Ubisoft would not know what the intentions of the original developers were.


* Heroes 4 was controversial, because of its many gameplay changes which divided the fanbase and also was released slightly earlier, with a really crappy AI and quite a few major and minor bugs.


Yes, they could introduce elements from the original universe, of course, but the fact is they haven't so far.

The reputation of HoMM4 has no bearing on its story. And I found it to be very refreshing. The countries on Axeoth were very cliché - Deyja being the lands ruled by an evil necromancer etc. On Axeoth, the campaign of Gaudolth set an entirely different tone, with the undead seeking peaceful coexistence.

Yes, these games were largely unfinished, and that's why it was such a good opportunity. All they had to do was remember the storyline of two games - what could be easier? The original intentions of NWC don't matter, as the players don't know them just as much as Ubisoft.

hellegennes wrote:Why, Ubisoft games never contradicted the original universe! Even if the Dragons of Ashan are just godlike beings, how does that contradict the Ancients? The Ancients are not the creators of the universe, they were just a colonizing advanced civilisation. They did not seed the entire universe themselves. Couldn't Ashan be one of the 100 billion planets* that exist on the same galaxy the Ancients are, which did not have anything to do with them?

Now, about those Kreegans, yes, they are supposed to be the same race in Heroes and MM games, but in Heroes they are not outright called Kreegans but Demons. Their lineup resembles much more a traditional version of hell, which comprises demons, familiars and devils. They also look nothing like MM Kreegans, although they are supposed to be the same race. This choice was made in order not to alienate Heroes fans who did not play the MM games. Everyone was happy, because to Heroes fans they were just demons, but to MM fans they were a continuation of the MM storyline.

Heroes fans never saw an alien race in the demon race of Heroes; that's why the Forge met with such heavy criticism, before it even made its way to the game.


* that could very well be the number of planets in the Milky Way, according to what we know today.


If it's a planet on the other side of the galaxy, or in another galaxy, it makes no difference as there is still no connection to previous events.

And yes, I completely agree with you, but the way they did it was pretty graceful. Both sides were content. And now they have no sci-fi anywhere, leaving only the MMH side content.

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hellegennes
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Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 8:48

My point was that you can ignore the games you don't want to have anything to do with because of their story. They can always reintroduce elements of the old plot even in Ashan. I can think of a few ways that this could be done in a very slick manner, without changing anything from the backstory of either "universe".

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Postby Yurian Stonebow » Apr 1 2013, 9:09

Voted Yes. I'm happy for us fans of the series that an official MMX game was finally announced and confirmed to be in development. I wish Limbic and Marzhin all the best in their heroic journey together. (And as for happiness in general... well, Happiness Is a Warm Gun.)

@GreatEmerald:

"The countries on Axeoth were very cliché - Deyja being the lands ruled by an evil necromancer etc."

Are you suggesting that Deyja can be found somewhere in the lands of Axeoth??

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 1 2013, 12:07

hellegennes wrote:My point was that you can ignore the games you don't want to have anything to do with because of their story. They can always reintroduce elements of the old plot even in Ashan. I can think of a few ways that this could be done in a very slick manner, without changing anything from the backstory of either "universe".


Yes, and my point is that they haven't done that yet.

Yurian Stonebow wrote:Are you suggesting that Deyja can be found somewhere in the lands of Axeoth??


No? I'm suggesting that the countries in Antagarich are very stereotypical.

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hellegennes
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Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 12:45

GreatEmerald wrote:
Yurian Stonebow wrote:Are you suggesting that Deyja can be found somewhere in the lands of Axeoth??


No? I'm suggesting that the countries in Antagarich are very stereotypical.


To some extent, this owes to Heroes 3 needing a stereotypical base land for each competing faction. The politics however are not entirely stereotypical, the backstories of both the peoples and the lands of Antagarich are interesting.

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Postby Marzhin » Apr 1 2013, 17:56

hellegennes wrote:Why, Ubisoft games never contradicted the original universe! Even if the Dragons of Ashan are just godlike beings, how does that contradict the Ancients? The Ancients are not the creators of the universe, they were just a colonizing advanced civilisation. They did not seed the entire universe themselves. Couldn't Ashan be one of the 100 billion planets* that exist on the same galaxy the Ancients are, which did not have anything to do with them?


As far as I'm concerned, Ashan and the Ancient worlds are indeed in the same cosmos, just on "different sides of the Void", so to speak.

Ashan is simply a world that appeared through a "natural" convergence of Elemental forces, and not through the Ancients' Elemental Manipulation. After all, if you read the manual for MM2, it clearly indicates that Dragons are Elemental creatures, not creations of the Ancients.

Using this skill, Acwalandar formed a fell creature of enormous girth and power. He filled it with life from many of his followers and endowed it with the most fearsome of weapons known to him, fire. He had created the first dragon, a creature of mindless destruction and incredible strength.


It's the same on Ashan, it's just that there the Dragons are much more powerful and primordial than on Ancient worlds and actually embody their Element.

Last but not least, in Heroes VI we acknowledged the connection by having the "Week of the Ancients" that triggers once in a while, according to which strange lights can sometimes be spotted in Ashan's night sky, hinting that Ancients or other star-faring civilizations did visit Ashan at some point and maybe are still surveying this strange world...

And without telling too much, MMX wouldn't really be MMX without at least some references to that connection as well... :devil:

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 2 2013, 9:28

Sounds good :)

tolich wrote:And both are game creators, say, NWC. As Creators, they create vast worlds, and inhabit them with people and monsters, create conflicts, disasters and calamities to challenge the player. As Ancients, they award the winner. Yes, MM3 has some information about the war between these two sides of game creators, it's but an expansion to joke.

References to them as game creators are the joke.
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