Might & Magic 10

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » Mar 31 2013, 13:16

Variol wrote:In a non-linear game, we need to be able to save, because there's no way of knowing how tough an area is.


You save before going into a new area.

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tolich
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Postby tolich » Mar 31 2013, 15:03

hellegennes wrote:Monsters do respawn in all three Diablo games. They just don't respawn within the same game session.
Respawn means not potintial new monsters in a new game, but new encounters in already visited locations within one game.
Diablo I saves game and character, but allows discard a game and start it anew. Diablo II doesn't save the whole game (only quests and world shape), the monsters, chests and other stuff is not saved. So it's not respawn, just new game.
Might an Magic 3-9 doesn't allow to save characters and start new game, so any new monsters are respawned.

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Postby GrayFace » Mar 31 2013, 18:02

tolich wrote:Diablo II doesn't save the whole game (only quests and world shape), the monsters, chests and other stuff is not saved. So it's not respawn, just new game.

It is a respawn. You don't start new, maps of locations are saved, including the visibility mask that tells you where you've already been.
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Postby Arret » Apr 1 2013, 7:10

GreatEmerald wrote:
GrayFace wrote:For me that and maybe generators are the best options. I can't imagine myself playing a game with that crazy respawn rules of MM1&2 (respawning set encounters part mostly) you described.


It's not that bad, as most of the time you don't need to fight them more than once anyway. There is usually no reason to leave the area and come back, and until you do so, set encounters won't respawn. Plus, there are certain spells that make going through areas much easier, like Jump, Teleport, Etherealise, Surface, and (in MM2) Lloyd's Beacon.

The fact that you can only save at inns is annoying, though, I'll admit that. Though in MM2 Lloyd's Beacon mostly negates that, and in MM1 dungeons are usually pretty straight-forward, so you don't need to save that often anyway.


That assumes you know what the purpose of the dungeon is and where the items/quest rewards are. Often times you need to leave and come back until you get the solution correct. When there are extra spawns near the front, this gets tedious, It does however allow for some neat tricks like punishing you for missing the puzzles in the sorcerer juror quest.

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tolich
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Postby tolich » Apr 1 2013, 16:36

GrayFace wrote:It is a respawn.
Not, it's not. It's spawning, indeed, but not respawning.
Well, player characters can respawn, if they die.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 1 2013, 16:50

Arret wrote:That assumes you know what the purpose of the dungeon is and where the items/quest rewards are. Often times you need to leave and come back until you get the solution correct. When there are extra spawns near the front, this gets tedious, It does however allow for some neat tricks like punishing you for missing the puzzles in the sorcerer juror quest.


I suppose. Playing the first two games without at least a cluebook and a manual would be quite tedious indeed.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 1 2013, 17:50

tolich wrote:
GrayFace wrote:It is a respawn.
Not, it's not. It's spawning, indeed, but not respawning.
Well, player characters can respawn, if they die.


How is it not respawning? The only thing changing between gaming sessions is that the monsters are alive again. Quests, quest items, maps, waypoints, dialogue records, etc, are all saved.

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Postby tolich » Apr 2 2013, 5:40

hellegennes wrote:How is it not respawning?
'Respawning' means 'spawning of the same stuff again while the game is active'. If the game is to be quitted, it's not. If the game spawns different stuff, then it's not. In Diablo II when you quit and start again, you start new game, though preserving many things.
hellegennes wrote:The only thing changing between gaming sessions is that the monsters are alive again.
By the way, chests, temples and other containers and active objects are spawned anew too. But not the same ones.
hellegennes wrote:Quests, quest items, maps, waypoints, dialogue records, etc, are all saved.
Well, it's game progress, not game state. Dialogue records are not saved. Kill Andariel, and then talk to everyone about Sisters of Slaughter. Then quit, return, and try again.
BTW, the hint about quest 'was completed in the previous game session' speaks loudly.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 2 2013, 6:54

tolich wrote:
hellegennes wrote:How is it not respawning?
'Respawning' means 'spawning of the same stuff again while the game is active'. If the game is to be quitted, it's not. If the game spawns different stuff, then it's not. In Diablo II when you quit and start again, you start new game, though preserving many things.
hellegennes wrote:The only thing changing between gaming sessions is that the monsters are alive again.
By the way, chests, temples and other containers and active objects are spawned anew too. But not the same ones.
hellegennes wrote:Quests, quest items, maps, waypoints, dialogue records, etc, are all saved.
Well, it's game progress, not game state. Dialogue records are not saved. Kill Andariel, and then talk to everyone about Sisters of Slaughter. Then quit, return, and try again.
BTW, the hint about quest 'was completed in the previous game session' speaks loudly.


Ahem... the "while the game is active" is certainly not in the definition. Respawning means that the creature you killed is reborn. You can always argue that a monster of X type is not the same I killed before, even though it is in the same spot, but you can't say it's a different Mephisto every time. There is only one Mephisto and he respawns.

Distinguishing game state from game progress is a technicality. The only real thing that distinguishes them is defining the exact spot from which you start in a new session.

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 2 2013, 9:15

tolich wrote:'Respawning' means 'spawning of the same stuff again while the game is active'. If the game is to be quitted, it's not.

There's no reason to take your definition as the correct one. To the contrary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respawn and http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/respawn (just another site that popped up in Google) don't mention anything about quitting game.

tolich wrote:If the game spawns different stuff, then it's not.

Then in MM it's not respawn in your definition. Monsters respawning in MMORPGs usually don't follow your definition as well.
I'm not sure I recall correctly, do special monsters respawn the same in D2? I mean the ones with funny words added to their name, are these words the same next time you enter the game? AFAIR, yes!
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Postby tolich » Apr 2 2013, 9:55

GrayFace wrote:There's no reason to take your definition as the correct one. To the contrary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respawn and http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/respawn (just another site that popped up in Google) don't mention anything about quitting game.

wikipedia wrote:In some games, enemies may be respawned (or, equivalently, new ones spawned) to keep players on their toes and create tension, or force players to move on, making it too costly (in resources) and/or too dangerous to stay in one place for too long.
So Diablo II doesn't count. When you start the game, and the world is recreated, you're spawned in the safe place.
ldoceonline wrote:if a character in a computer game respawns or is respawned, they are born again after being killed
Again, Diablo II just spawns monsters, they don't reappear after being killed. The player character and mercenary in contrast is respawnable, so I was a bit wrong.
GrayFace wrote:Then in MM it's not respawn in your definition.
Not true. While MM1-2 provides only spawning monsters as encounters, MM6-8 respawns monsters when the location is reset. MM3 and MM4 spawns monsters on Arena/WarZone, and MM4 respawns monsters at Nightshadow and Winterkill.
GrayFace wrote:I'm not sure I recall correctly, do special monsters respawn the same in D2? I mean the ones with funny words added to their name, are these words the same next time you enter the game? AFAIR, yes!
I'm not sure. I'll check it, if got time.
Last edited by tolich on Apr 2 2013, 17:43, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby GrayFace » Apr 2 2013, 11:53

tolich wrote:In some games, enemies may be respawned (or, equivalently, new ones spawned) to keep players on their toes and create tension

In others (D2, MM6-8, ...) the goal of respawn is different.

tolich wrote:Not true.

It's in the quote I'm referring to. MM6-8 spawns different monsters. It randomly spawns groups of monsters which may be of different strength and count.
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Postby tolich » Apr 2 2013, 16:23

GrayFace wrote:In others (D2, MM6-8, ...) the goal of respawn is different.
No, in other games they don't respawn.
Last edited by tolich on Apr 2 2013, 16:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 2 2013, 16:27

By this definition, neither Daggerfall feature monster respawning, which is wrong by any measure. Monsters do not respawn inside Daggerfall dungeons unless you exit them, so it's not used to create tension. You don't have to quit the game, either, the enemies respawn as soon as you exit the dungeons.

Also, Daggerfall save system doesn't fit your definition of a save state routine. Sure, it saves most of the stuff, but as soon as you exit the area all progress is gone. All loot, monsters, doors, trapdoors and mechanisms are reset.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 2 2013, 16:31

tolich wrote:
GrayFace wrote:In others (D2, MM6-8, ...) the goal of respawn is different.
No, in other games the don't respawn.


I'm not sure I'm reading this right... do goblins respawn in New Sorpigal after you had 6 months of gathering XP to keep on your toes with their supreme power or do they not respawn at all? I am confused with your statement, since all areas reset after a while in MM6-8.

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Postby tolich » Apr 2 2013, 16:57

They spawn by location reset. In contrast, dragonflies of Emerald Isle respawn if totally killed. Other monsters do not.
And ghosts of Winterkill respawn if not totally killed.

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Postby tolich » Apr 2 2013, 17:44

GrayFace wrote:I'm not sure I recall correctly, do special monsters respawn the same in D2? I mean the ones with funny words added to their name, are these words the same next time you enter the game? AFAIR, yes!
Well, it's strange, while ordinary monsters were spawned different, the named Brute met me again and again in the Darkwood close to the Tree of Inifuss.

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Postby Macros the Black » Apr 2 2013, 23:51

Diablo 2 has rare monsters and unique monsters. Unique monsters always spawn in the same place (the one you're referring to is Treehead Woodfist) and always have the same abilities (although they are more powerful in higher difficulty settings). They usually either guard a passage or a quest item, or killing them is a quest in and of itself.

Rare monsters are enemies that randomly spawn anywhere and usually come with a group of minions which are of the same monster type as them. Their names are random affixes and suffixes added together, and they also have random abilities.
You'd think Darkmoor was a ghost town, but instead there's plenty of life among the dead.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 3 2013, 1:14

tolich wrote:They spawn by location reset. In contrast, dragonflies of Emerald Isle respawn if totally killed. Other monsters do not.
And ghosts of Winterkill respawn if not totally killed.


If you encounter an enemy again, which you have previously killed, it is always referred to as respawn. Everything else is just a detail on how every game uses the trope. That's the definition of respawn and it fits all mentioned games.

And by the way, if an enemy has not been killed, he can not respawn, since... well, he has not died yet. It's just health regeneration and happens in MM too, if you sleep. All monsters will have their health replenished, even if they just had 1 HP left.

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Postby Sgt_BFG » Apr 3 2013, 21:06

It's been a long time since I last visited here, but the announcement for an actual sequel to Might & Magic gots me excited! I started a wikipedia page for the game but I'm not that great for editing on that site so any help is appreciated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_and_Magic_X_Legacy


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