How would you balance MM7 classes?

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forgottenlor
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How would you balance MM7 classes?

Postby forgottenlor » Jan 9 2013, 19:22

If the consensus is that the knight, sorcerer, and cleric are the best classes, how would you balance the others so that they are less disadvantageous to use?

For example I was thinking about the Druid. He works fine in MM6, since he can advance as far in elemental magic as the Sorcerer or in self magic as the Cleric. He still has the disadvantage of having to pick and choose where to put their points and not getting light or dark.

Having less experience with the other classes, its harder for me to say. My first impressions. The ranger seems to be good at nothing. He is a worse knight, who can't really do anything sufficiently well to justify taking him over the knight, paladin, or archer. The archer would be better if he could master disarm after his second promotion. Maybe if he and the paladin could also expert in Dark/light at the end of the game. The monk would be better if he could expert disarm from the get go. I would also wish he could expert in bow.

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Jan 9 2013, 20:00

Most of the classes are fine. Here's what would be needed to do:

* Have Preservation protect against Eradication/Insta-Death (could still reduce HP to 0, but allow for healing).

This would eliminate GM Protection from Magic (and therefore Clerics) as the only real defensive spell in some of the later areas of the game, opening the door for Druids, Paladins, and even the occasional Monk.

* Allow the Ranger to Master Disarm Trap from the first promotion. Don't give that ability to the Archer; the Archer is actually fine as is (GM Bow, GM Chain, and Master Elemental Magic make the Archer very worthwhile). On that note, GM Perception to the Ranger and only Master Perception to the Archer. These would make the Ranger a decent alternative to the Thief.

* Druids are fine. The only thing the Sorceror has on them is the four GM Elemental Spells and access to Dark/Light. The Druid has better armor access, better alchemy, and, if you know what you're doing, a better spell point pool.

* Paladins and Monks are both viable alternatives to Knights; Paladins sacrifice some offensive ability for spell support, while properly built Monks are very survivable. There's no real need to change these classes.
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Postby Konfuzius » Jan 9 2013, 20:16

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I actually did a complete revamp of the classes just for myself a while back. I even have the xlsx where I planned my classes initially. I will recap the most important changes of the classes.
That's at least my approach to make all classes somewhat balanced.

The Knight became a Barbarian. Less armor capabilities but as much HP as always with elemental resistance from GM leather. No dual whielding and repairing but some nice other abilities like perception, GM axe and GM mace.

Thief became a pirate. He's a mix of attacker and supporter, however, he doesn't have much armor.
Bow is now only basic. Light learns GM sword and dark GM daggers.
Master in condition, GM in negotiation (threatning, lying and stuff), as well as master in perception and traps (treasure hunter!). No more stealing (raiding, not robbing).
Also expert in elemental magic (every school of magic is at least expert).

Monk became a Mercenary (my favourite class). Kind of a jack of all weapons. Access to all weapons but can't any of them GM. M in sword, bow and spear but GM in armsmaster. Also GM in chain armor, armsmaster and repair. Master in negotiation and E self magic.

Guard replaced the Paladin and is hard to get down due to crapload of armor (GM plate and shield) as well as master self magic.
However, he doesn't have much HP and can only carry one weapon (GM spear, M bow). Also gets expert light/dark.

Archer becames a Travel Mage. While less HP and not that great in combat, he can has some very good abilities.
Choosing the dark path he gets GM dark magic, choosing light will provide him with M in all magic schools with exception of dark/light.
GM in learning, perception, monsters and staff. M in leather, bow, repair and dagger.

Ranger became a Ninja and at the last promotion becomes Expert at all schools of magic with exception of dark/light. GM dodge, melee, traps, perception and stealing. Light gets GM dagger and dark GM staff. Only basic axe but master in meditation and learning.

Cleric became the priest (I know very creative name xD). He's basically the same without light/dark magic. Can use the same weapons but with exception of the bow can be an expert in them. Also GM meditation and alchemie.

Sorcerer is now an Elemental Mage. Focus on elemental magic and no more dark/light, only m identify but GM alchemie (always thought that sorcerer is op).

A weird mix is the Zealot who replaced the Druid. While only expert meditation he can become master in mace, plate, dagger, body building. GM in bow and if you chose light, GM in light magic. Otherwise master in everything besides light/dark. Kind of an combat armed priest.


Had a lot of fun playing with my Dwarf Guard, Goblin Mercenary, elf travel mage and human priest :D.

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Postby Arret » Jan 9 2013, 21:28

For Cleric the answers are easy: Fix GM protection from magic and hand over GM merchant to another class because it never fit in the first place.

For sorcerer remove expert dagger so they really feel crippled in melee. As is they get expert dagger without a single promotion, making their damage comparable to almost any class until master sword.

Give something to druids, either expert light/dark or GM elemental, master self does not need to be changed. As it is GM meditation makes no sense on a class that can't cast any expensive spells.

For knights, remove GM armsmaster from the game completely and reduce body building to master level, give GM body building to monk.

Ranger should have GM bow and/or master sword. Their big issue is they aren't great in melee, range, or spell casting.

Archers should have expert light/dark but other than that they are fine.

By simply killing off GM armsmaster the thief now becomes a viable choice for fast melee attacking. I actually loved MM9 blade setup for assassins as a workaround.

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Postby ShadowLiberal » Jan 9 2013, 23:02

Arret wrote:For Cleric the answers are easy: Fix GM protection from magic and hand over GM merchant to another class because it never fit in the first place.
Hey, you wouldn't want to rip off a Priest! It's immoral, and think of the damage to your reputation!

But my own ideas.

-Monk's skill differences in self magic, and Disarm/Stealing need to go, let them get expert in all those skills, and master in disarm regardless of the path you chose. And let monks get expert disarm before a promotion (why are they only class eligible for expert in a skill that can only get up to basic level of it before a promotion?).

-Ranger needs Master & GM in other skills, especially some physical skills. Just giving him master in some of the miscellaneous skills like Merchant would make him much more useful as a guy who bring along just for that rather then fighting or magic skills.

-Let Druid's get GM of all spell types, but don't allow them to learn Light or Dark.

-Allow master or grand master Armsmaster for Thief's.

-Give Archers and Paladins either a bit more HP or MP per level, or both.

-Get rid of instant death spell effects that only Protection from Magic can prevent. That'll make Cleric's less necessary in the late game.

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Postby Arret » Jan 9 2013, 23:48

ShadowLiberal wrote:
Arret wrote:For Cleric the answers are easy: Fix GM protection from magic and hand over GM merchant to another class because it never fit in the first place.
Hey, you wouldn't want to rip off a Priest! It's immoral, and think of the damage to your reputation!


Is that before or after they cast sacrifice :D ?

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Postby ShadowLiberal » Jan 10 2013, 3:08

Arret wrote:
ShadowLiberal wrote:
Arret wrote:For Cleric the answers are easy: Fix GM protection from magic and hand over GM merchant to another class because it never fit in the first place.
Hey, you wouldn't want to rip off a Priest! It's immoral, and think of the damage to your reputation!


Is that before or after they cast sacrifice :D ?
Hey, that's a holy ritual in The Pit! Are you mocking their religion!

I've always wondered if classes like the Monk not having the ability to even learn merchant is a part of the vows monks take. Perhaps one of the monk's vows is to let people rip them off very badly and be content about it! Monks are supposed to live a life of poverty after all!

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Jan 10 2013, 14:26

Arret wrote:For knights, remove GM armsmaster from the game completely and reduce body building to master level, give GM body building to monk.


Remove GM Plate from the Knight and that should slow them down. Give it to the Paladin instead.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby Bones_xa » Jan 10 2013, 17:33

Arret wrote:Give something to druids, either expert light/dark or GM elemental, master self does not need to be changed. As it is GM meditation makes no sense on a class that can't cast any expensive spells.


That is so true that GM meditation is pointless on class that don't cast high spell cost skills.
What were they thinking?
Maybe what would be cool is to allow them to GM only one but any one of each of elemental and self magic. And also maybe have access to expert light/dark.
Then move GM meditation to sorcs.

Anyways this is a reason I like MM6 better than 7. No restrictions on skills you can bring to master. If you can learn the skill, you can master it. That makes the classes a lot more customizable.

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Jan 10 2013, 20:15

Bones_xa wrote:
Arret wrote:Give something to druids, either expert light/dark or GM elemental, master self does not need to be changed. As it is GM meditation makes no sense on a class that can't cast any expensive spells.


That is so true that GM meditation is pointless on class that don't cast high spell cost skills.
What were they thinking?


A Druid will be casting both Self and Elemental spells is probably what they were thinking. If the person doing your fireball is also doing your cure poison or whatever, you may need a higher spell point reserve.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Arret
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Postby Arret » Jan 11 2013, 0:11

Yes, that is clearly why they gave GM meditation to druids. The problem is that there really isn't anything that eats mana on the self side until you start spamming power cure. Spirit lash always had the potential due to almost nothing having resistance, but the range made it impractical.

If you fixed spirit lash and gave spirit, earth, and water GM to druids and took them away from Cleric/Sorcerer, it would do a lot to fix balance of the classes by itself by making the sorcerer a pure offensive spellcasting class, and making the druid a more defensive spellcasting class.

Cleric gets GM magic protection fixed and drops merchant to expert level and the pure casters are probably fixed at that point.

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Postby forgottenlor » Jan 11 2013, 15:30

Would making the Ranger a posterboy of diversity, by letting him say master in spear, sword, shield, disarm, and armsmaster make him too powerful? Or would he still be to weak?

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Postby Bandobras Took » Jan 11 2013, 22:18

forgottenlor wrote:Would making the Ranger a posterboy of diversity, by letting him say master in spear, sword, shield, disarm, and armsmaster make him too powerful? Or would he still be to weak?


Still too weak, because other classes will still do the "Might" portion of the game better. That is why I suggested making the Ranger more parallel to the Thief: hired for the utility skills.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.


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