The Kreegan

[MMXAlamar]

There are reports of Kreegans on Axeoth centuries ago, but there were definitely some that survived the Reckoning and fled from Enroth.

So then, what exactly is the Fiery Realm? Is it a planet, a plane, something else?

We know the Plane of Death is another plane, like Arslegard and the Afterworld, or even the Elemental Planes on Enroth. An alternate dimension, if you will.

But what is the Fiery Realm?

I don't suppose it's the Kreegan homeworld or anything.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

There are reports of Kreegans on Axeoth centuries ago, but there were definitely some that survived the Reckoning and fled from Enroth.

So then, what exactly is the Fiery Realm? Is it a planet, a plane, something else?

We know the Plane of Death is another plane, like Arslegard and the Afterworld, or even the Elemental Planes on Enroth. An alternate dimension, if you will.

But what is the Fiery Realm?

I don't suppose it's the Kreegan homeworld or anything.

The Fiery Realm is I believe a planet that once existed in the material world but was merged or fused with another plane of existance from which the demons (not necceserily the kreegans) originally came from and are dependant.

Think of the place as a giant radio station casting out an energy type that is extra-planer in nature but still existing in the material world. It is effectively a giant planet sized portal through which the demonic energy bleeds through into the universe. It is neither truly part of reality nor part of the plane it is connected to, it's in the middle.

The demons probably waited until the kreegans had consumed all resources left the planet in order to begin the process of 'conversion' but never the less it is the potential to increase their universal power by creating more and more of these 'Fiery Realm' planets on the ruins of Kreegan conquered planets that motivates them to ally with the Kreegans as we see with the Heroes III Inferno faction.

[Tress]

So can we not see the obvious conclusion to arrive at. Planets that have fallen under the Kreegan domination evidently end up proving power to the demons, a power that radiates through the universe and can be used by powerful sorcerers to travel back to the source of that power.............

Actually that is extremely bold claim considering, basis for this is just two lines of text that also were said by in game character rather than all knowing narrator(not to mention that MM never was too consistent lore wise anyway).
1) Gauldoth simply may be wrong regarding that. It was just what he presumed.
2) Gauldoth may be unaware of Sci fi aspect of Kreegan and try to rationalize it via magic. It may just as well be sword imbued with nano bots(Created by ancients for this purpose along with several cyborgs) that recognize Kreegan and slay them effectively. As well as being able to interact with Kreegan related technology.


Was what I said above pure speculation and FF. YEs but so is other statements.

[BoardGuest808888]

Yeah. That be what I'm trying to say the other day as well.

To the other question, the whole technology and magic thing.

We know that magic is magic and not technology precisely because magic does appear to depend upon material resources for it's powers as it depicted in any of the games.

It depends upon mana, which is an immaterial substance of some sort which is found in varying amounts in different beings depending upon their 'magicalness'.

Well that's just silly.

Yeah. Right.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Actually that is extremely bold claim considering, basis for this is just two lines of text that also were said by in game character rather than all knowing narrator(not to mention that MM never was too consistent lore wise anyway).
1) Gauldoth simply may be wrong regarding that. It was just what he presumed.
2) Gauldoth may be unaware of Sci fi aspect of Kreegan and try to rationalize it via magic. It may just as well be sword imbued with nano bots(Created by ancients for this purpose along with several cyborgs) that recognize Kreegan and slay them effectively. As well as being able to interact with Kreegan related technology.

Was what I said above pure speculation and FF. YEs but so is other statements.

Remember that Gauldoth is using magic (not technology) to travel to another planet far away. He knows that the demons draw energy from some other place, he doesn't presume this is true, he knows it is true.

The presumption is that the Angel's Blade works by cutting off the Kreegans supply of this energy and can therefore be destroyed in order to create a magical portal to this realm. The presumption turns out to be correct oddly enough. So it's no longer really a presumption, it is a validated theory.

If the sword worked by nanobots, why would destroying it allow Gauldoth be able to transport himself all the way to Fiery Realm? It wouldn't. So even as speculation what you say is obviously incorrect. A thing is not working by sci-fi unless you have evidence that it is.

[XEL II]

not to mention that MM never was too consistent lore wise anyway

It actually was quite consistent in that regard, however, there areindeed some inconsistencies (thankfully rather minor) in the games released in the period when JVC wasn't heading the development, particulary Heroes Chronicles.

[GreatEmerald]

If the sword worked by nanobots, why would destroying it allow Gauldoth be able to transport himself all the way to Fiery Realm? It wouldn't. So even as speculation what you say is obviously incorrect. A thing is not working by sci-fi unless you have evidence that it is.

That argument works both ways. If the sword works by cutting off some power supply from the Kreegan, why would destroying it bring Gauldoth to it? It wouldn't. So your speculation is incorrect as well.

We just don't know how the sword works. It could be magical. It could be made of nanobots. It could have a battery in it. It could warp the Kreegans into space based on their bio signature. It could summon a god that banishes the Kreegan. It could work by combining both magic and technology. We just don't know! So any speculation based on that is pointless.

In my opinion, the only way to find any common ground in questions like "what is the Underworld" and "what is the Fiery Plane" is to use Occam's Razor. The explanation that the Fiery Plane is an alternative dimension that is in the opposite pole of reality and connects both normal demons and Kreegan and the source of their power - as opposed to an explanation that the Fiery Plane is just a planet conquered by the Kreegan - is completely against the principle. That explanation is not only too complex, but also based on a lot of unproven assumptions.

[Tress]

Remember that Gauldoth is using magic (not technology) to travel to another planet far away. He knows that the demons draw energy from some other place, he doesn't presume this is true, he knows it is true.

He thinks, not knows. He just presume(with some certainty) that connection to plane is why it works. He deduces it from effect not studying demon plane and artifact.

That argument works both ways. If the sword works by cutting off some power supply from the Kreegan, why would destroying it bring Gauldoth to it? It wouldn't. So your speculation is incorrect as well.

Didn't really got this part as well. Being able to cut lines doesn't really make it automatically able to create portals.

The presumption is that the Angel's Blade works by cutting off the Kreegans supply of this energy and can therefore be destroyed in order to create a magical portal to this realm. The presumption turns out to be correct oddly enough. So it's no longer really a presumption, it is a validated theory.

Actually it is as much speculation as my theory. I could even elaborate it, and call it canonical including rationalizing portal thing.(in one text it is claimed that actually demons created sword, and we could think reason for that too(warring factions/misinformation to begin with, etc, so let's skip this bit for now, we also skip fact that sword is supposed to increase damage against all death creatures(like slimes,bone dragons, death knights etc), which certainly don't have connection to kreegan worlds )) OK let's begin :
Sword is actually ancient artifact meant for fight with kreegan, that actually consists of self replicating nano bots, which effectively detect and destroy kreegan enemies based on their biological signatures. Since such artifact would get destroyed in combat, it generates force field that would prevent it from being damaged by magical or other means(thus Gauldoth had to work whole day to destroy it).
Now once he managed to destroy it, it released wave of nano bots that without normal form tried to destroy kreegan in area(let's say it self destruct mechanism in case sword get's destroyed), in conjunction with ley lines, nanites were able to not only find kreegans in current plane of existence, but also on nearest one (fiery realm) and tear fabric that separates planes, creating stable two way wormhole.


Now this explanation is pretty much as justified as any other.

[MMXAlamar]

In the MM world, science and magic are one in the same. It was like that since the beginning of the series.

[Daerandin]

In the MM world, science and magic are one in the same. It was like that since the beginning of the series.

I have also always had the understanding that the technology of the ancients, while of course being very advanced technology, also incorporates magic in some way. In a world where magic exists such as the MM universe, it seems unlikely that an advanced civilization would not use it. Of course, this is just pure speculation as I can't come up with any examples from the games where this is more directly hinted at. Unless counting some artifacts, I do believe there are some artifacts in MM6 with magical properties that were made before the silence, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.

It depends upon mana, which is an immaterial substance of some sort which is found in varying amounts in different beings depending upon their 'magicalness'.

I always considered mana to simply be a gameplay mechanic. For example, the sorcerer class has more mana than the archer, but to me this makes sense in that the sorcerer spends much more time practicing magic as they are a magic oriented class. The archer knows some magic, but nowhere near as much as the sorcerer. So we have mana in gameplay terms to differentiate between those with the training (or possibly innate ability) to use magic to a greater degree.

[GreatEmerald]

I have also always had the understanding that the technology of the ancients, while of course being very advanced technology, also incorporates magic in some way.

Yea, that's my view as well. Seeding lands with people who can use magic and then not using it themselves would be short-sighted. The Ancients just also have technology to aid them, too, and in some cases it's hard to tell if something is done by magic or technology by those who are not aware of it.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

That argument works both ways. If the sword works by cutting off some power supply from the Kreegan, why would destroying it bring Gauldoth to it? It wouldn't. So your speculation is incorrect as well.

Because it is a magical item and Gauldoth (unlike us) has studied the theory of how magic works in the Might and Magic Universe.

He starts based upon a known fact, that demons draw their power from somewhere 'else' which he reasons apparantly using Occam's Razor is probably the Fiery Realm. Based upon his general understanding of how magical items tend to work he then concludes that in order to rescue Kalibarr he might be able to get to the Fiery Realm by destroying said magical item at a particular location.

This is his hypothesis.

We just don't know how the sword works. It could be magical. It could be made of nanobots. It could have a battery in it. It could warp the Kreegans into space based on their bio signature. It could summon a god that banishes the Kreegan. It could work by combining both magic and technology. We just don't know! So any speculation based on that is pointless.

We know roughly how it works in a scientific sense because Gauldoth's hypothesis when tested is not falsified. It's funny to think of there being scientific magic but that's basically when Gauldoth is doing.

Because the theorised mechanic is a key part of why Gauldoth comes up with idea of destroying it, then it is not pointless to speculate about it. We DO know something about how it works.

In my opinion, the only way to find any common ground in questions like "what is the Underworld" and "what is the Fiery Plane" is to use Occam's Razor. The explanation that the Fiery Plane is an alternative dimension that is in the opposite pole of reality and connects both normal demons and Kreegan and the source of their power - as opposed to an explanation that the Fiery Plane is just a planet conquered by the Kreegan - is completely against the principle. That explanation is not only too complex, but also based on a lot of unproven assumptions.

We know that the Fiery Realm is a planet conquered by the Kreegans. We know that the demons get their power from the Fiery Realm because of validation of Gauldoth's theory by being able to travel there.

However as we know that there must have been a time when the Fiery Realm was NOT under to the dominion of the Kreegans. This means that the demons would have gained their power from somewhere else originally. Because we can't have an infinite line of Fiery Realms can we?

Gauldoth originally reasons based upon his magical knowledge that because the demons are known to draw some kind of mysterious power from this place which has already called the Fiery Realm and which using other magical means Kalibarr and the Kreegan demons have already travelled to, he might be able to; by destroying an object he guesses is connected to the Fiery Realm in the way it works, travel to the Fiery Realm. He is correct.

When he arrives however he realises that he has arrived on another world, one which has has 'known the domination of the kreegans'. This means he is also aware of the sci-fi side of things, that the kreegans are an intersteller menace that conquer's worlds. So he thus makes a discovery, that demons draw this vital power from worlds the kreegans have conquered.

We already know that the demons and their creatures are not the same thing as the kreegans because in Conquest of the Underworld which is set before the kreegan invasion Tarnum encounters demonic creatures. We also already know that those creatures will end up serving the kreegans as we face the same creatures later on in Heroes III.

We also know they come from a place called the Underworld, another plane of existance inhabited by demons and undead (I think based upon the campaign description). Interestingly the Fiery Realm is also inhabited by demons and undead.

Given that we know that demons gain their power from kreegan ruined worlds, we can easily figure out why they serve the kreegans. We already know they come from another plane so what I am saying is simply an answer to this question.

Where did the demons get their power from before there were any 'Fiery Realms'?

My answer is that they got their power from the Underworld which is where they originally dwelled and were confined. They wish to expand their realm and thus their power by turning planets into relays for the Underworld's energy, 'Fiery Realms'. The kreegans act as their 'space-arm'. How exactly they do so is speculation, but that there is a symbiotic relationship between kreegan and demon is factually based.

I have also always had the understanding that the technology of the ancients, while of course being very advanced technology, also incorporates magic in some way. In a world where magic exists such as the MM universe, it seems unlikely that an advanced civilization would not use it. Of course, this is just pure speculation as I can't come up with any examples from the games where this is more directly hinted at. Unless counting some artifacts, I do believe there are some artifacts in MM6 with magical properties that were made before the silence, unless my memory is playing tricks on me. Daerandin

Yes the fusion of technology and magic is kind of the Ancients great power. They fuse the two together so that they can use magic to summon elemental substances that they then form into technological objects.

But just because the Ancients do it doesn't mean that elsewhere magic and technology are one though. For the other creatures there are the concepts of Might and Magic and seperate spheres for both even if they blended with magical items.

In Heroes IV we have the extreme divide between Might and Magic(s) in the way the factions are set up with the barbarian might faction not having any magic using hero unlike the others (who have might heroes).

It is funny to think of the barbarians as the technological faction but in a sense they are. To create a fireball to burn your enemies is Magic, but to use a flamethrower to burn your enemies is advanced Might isn't it?

I always considered mana to simply be a gameplay mechanic. For example, the sorcerer class has more mana than the archer, but to me this makes sense in that the sorcerer spends much more time practicing magic as they are a magic oriented class. The archer knows some magic, but nowhere near as much as the sorcerer. So we have mana in gameplay terms to differentiate between those with the training (or possibly innate ability) to use magic to a greater degree.

No, we have mana in the game to limit the number of spells a person can cast. Mana is a gameplay function of the in-universe fact that a person can't cast an unlimited succession of powerful spells until they have laid waste to the whole universe.

The only real question is whether they quantify magic in universe in the way we as players do? I think they do, the reason I think they do so is that they consume substances (mana potions), made from some kind of blue flower I can't remember; to replenish their depleted personal stockpile of mana.

I think people would be interested in know exactly how pure their mana potions were and how many fireballs they would be able to be able to cast after using one. From that one would naturally progress to working out just how much mana each spell would cost relatively. All this requires a unit of measurement.

But I rather doubt that a mana point in Might and Magic is the same measurement as in Heroes though.

[Tress]

Based upon his general understanding of how magical items tend to work he then concludes that in order to rescue Kalibarr he might be able to get to the Fiery Realm by destroying said magical item at a particular location.

He knows how to open gate, but at the same time he might not know exact mechanics involved. We all know how to start car by turning key but not of us are aware how precisely engine works. He may have learned that by destroying such artifact portal might be opened. He migh6 red it somewhere, used some divination or just kicked answer out of some demon who is aware how to do it.
Or for magical solution he as magician/necromance knew how to manipulate ley lines into opening portal, he just needed focus that will draw path to kreegan be it magical means or nano bots(either way they find target)

We know that the Fiery Realm is a planet conquered by the Kreegans. We know that the demons get their power from the Fiery Realm because of validation of Gauldoth's theory by being able to travel there. ....

We actually don't know how Kallibar get into Fiery realm. He might have spare nano bot sword that was used in same way, or he found some ancient stargate and he dialed real bad number, or he learned from some Kreegan how to get there. It is not elaborated and any guess is as good.

Where did the demons get their power from before there were any 'Fiery Realms'?

Why they need power in such manner anyway? Does humans have powers? Do necromancers have some sort of plane they get them. Kreegans may cast spells just the same way humans do(or use pocket teleporters and alien blasters that produce fireballs). Kreegans as far as MM elaborates poses main threat due their insect nature. Fast spawning/resilient and intelligent on top of that. As for Conquest of underworld..... Well die hard MM loremasters may tell me what they want but it is clear that people who write story for one does not for other.(this imo is also reason why HOMM demon version is so non- alien and demonish, in my eyes it is not even worth to rationalize, as far as CoU goes they are demon fair and square (well to rationalize, perhaps with no connection to Kreegan at all, and I certainly wont agree that Underworld would be same as FIery realm)).

This means he is also aware of the sci-fi side of things, that the kreegans are an intersteller menace that conquer's worlds. So he thus makes a discovery, that demons draw this vital power from worlds the kreegans have conquered.

That also is not necessary. He might just be aware that they are locust like demons that obliterate everything in path(much like burning legion from warcraft).

[GreatEmerald]

Because it is a magical item and Gauldoth (unlike us) has studied the theory of how magic works in the Might and Magic Universe.

That's not certain. It may not be a magical item after all.

He starts based upon a known fact, that demons draw their power from somewhere 'else' which he reasons apparantly using Occam's Razor is probably the Fiery Realm. Based upon his general understanding of how magical items tend to work he then concludes that in order to rescue Kalibarr he might be able to get to the Fiery Realm by destroying said magical item at a particular location.

He didn't know about the Fiery Realm until he actually went there himself. He just thought that a portal would teleport him somewhere. He wasn't expecting another planet, however. Also, I don't see much point in this - so, he opened the portal, but that doesn't say a whole lot. We still don't know how it worked.

We know roughly how it works in a scientific sense because Gauldoth's hypothesis when tested is not falsified. It's funny to think of there being scientific magic but that's basically when Gauldoth is doing.

Because the theorised mechanic is a key part of why Gauldoth comes up with idea of destroying it, then it is not pointless to speculate about it. We DO know something about how it works.

Not really. His hypothesis was "breaking a sword here makes a portal appear", and it was correct. It in no way validates his previous thoughts, however. And even if it did, it hardly matters, as we still don't know what sort of "power" the Kreegan draw from the planet. It could be magical, but it could be spaceships for all we know. And like tress noted, humans don't need a special place to draw power from to cast spells, so why would the Kreegan need it?

We know that the Fiery Realm is a planet conquered by the Kreegans. We know that the demons get their power from the Fiery Realm because of validation of Gauldoth's theory by being able to travel there.

1) Yes. 2) No.

However as we know that there must have been a time when the Fiery Realm was NOT under to the dominion of the Kreegans. This means that the demons would have gained their power from somewhere else originally. Because we can't have an infinite line of Fiery Realms can we?

This is also not necessarily true, for all we know, that planet could be the Kreegan homeworld (although I'd say it's unlikely). And even if they really needed a planet to draw some power, they would always have their homeworld. As a matter of fact, even if they didn't have their homeworld, there is nothing to suggest that the Kreegan are dependent on that power - it might make them more powerful, but there was never anything to suggest that it was mandatory for Kreegan existence. The first planet they conquered might as well have been out of sheer overwhelming force.

When he arrives however he realises that he has arrived on another world, one which has has 'known the domination of the kreegans'. This means he is also aware of the sci-fi side of things, that the kreegans are an intersteller menace that conquer's worlds. So he thus makes a discovery, that demons draw this vital power from worlds the kreegans have conquered.

And this is completely wrong. He realises that he's on another planet, because the stars and moons are different. That doesn't make him realise the true nature of the Kreegan by any stretch. And there was never the word "vital" given anywhere in relation to this.

We already know that the demons and their creatures are not the same thing as the kreegans because in Conquest of the Underworld which is set before the kreegan invasion Tarnum encounters demonic creatures. We also already know that those creatures will end up serving the kreegans as we face the same creatures later on in Heroes III.

This is mostly correct (although things like Cerberi were never mentioned in CotU if I recall correctly).

We also know they come from a place called the Underworld, another plane of existance inhabited by demons and undead (I think based upon the campaign description). Interestingly the Fiery Realm is also inhabited by demons and undead.

No, the Underworld is a cave system in Erathia. It has hallucinogenic abilities, but nothing out of the ordinary, really. Just that one of its inhabitants could walk across planes, apparently.

Given that we know that demons gain their power <...>

And so this is not a valid piece of speculation, as once again it's built on conjecture. Though it does allow me to understand how you came to such mind-boggling conclusions.

In Heroes IV we have the extreme divide between Might and Magic(s) in the way the factions are set up with the barbarian might faction not having any magic using hero unlike the others (who have might heroes).

This is gameplay mechanics. I'm fairly certain that an actual division to "might" and "magic" factions was never mentioned in the game.

The only real question is whether they quantify magic in universe in the way we as players do? I think they do, the reason I think they do so is that they consume substances (mana potions), made from some kind of blue flower I can't remember; to replenish their depleted personal stockpile of mana.

I think people would be interested in know exactly how pure their mana potions were and how many fireballs they would be able to be able to cast after using one. From that one would naturally progress to working out just how much mana each spell would cost relatively. All this requires a unit of measurement.

Uh huh. And hitpoints can be regained by drinking a potion made of berries. Does that mean that people there are aware of their "hitpoints"? I don't think so. It's just a simplified solution to make it work in a game easily.

[Daerandin]

I don't really see the point in attempting to discuss with someone who makes a distinction between different types of Kreegan. There are a race of creatures called demons, these are seen in MM1-5. And I also believe the demons in Conquest of the Underworld are different creatures completely unrelated to the Kreegan. Just because the Inferno faction was used as these creatures in the scenarios you play, does not mean they are the same as the Kreegan or related to them in any way.

Slayer of Cliffracers, nothing personal against you, just your theories. I simply can not see your logic no matter how hard I try. That fact is that you interpret things your own way and then hold your own interpretations as solid proof when in fact it is not. I don't know how many posts I see where people attempt to demonstrate this.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

He knows how to open gate, but at the same time he might not know exact mechanics involved. We all know how to start car by turning key but not of us are aware how precisely engine works. He may have learned that by destroying such artifact portal might be opened. He migh6 red it somewhere, used some divination or just kicked answer out of some demon who is aware how to do it.
Or for magical solution he as magician/necromance knew how to manipulate ley lines into opening portal, he just needed focus that will draw path to kreegan be it magical means or nano bots(either way they find target)

I am not claiming that he knows everything, only that the fact that he succeeds in using the Angel Blade item to establish a portal based upon his understanding of the way that the demons draw power from another realm despite it being in his words a 'long shot', rather indicates that this was actually the case.

We actually don't know how Kallibar get into Fiery realm. He might have spare nano bot sword that was used in same way, or he found some ancient stargate and he dialed real bad number, or he learned from some Kreegan how to get there. It is not elaborated and any guess is as good.
....

No we don't. Nor do we need too. I speculate that Kalibarr transported himself to the Fiery Realm using some kind of spell. He didn't know about the Reckoning at that point so he thought he could just return once the fire had burnt out.

Why they need power in such manner anyway? Does humans have powers? Do necromancers have some sort of plane they get them. Kreegans may cast spells just the same way humans do(or use pocket teleporters and alien blasters that produce fireballs). Kreegans as far as MM elaborates poses main threat due their insect nature. Fast spawning/resilient and intelligent on top of that. As for Conquest of underworld..... Well die hard MM loremasters may tell me what they want but it is clear that people who write story for one does not for other.(this imo is also reason why HOMM demon version is so non- alien and demonish, in my eyes it is not even worth to rationalize, as far as CoU goes they are demon fair and square (well to rationalize, perhaps with no connection to Kreegan at all, and I certainly wont agree that Underworld would be same as FIery realm)).

About the power issue, here's some background.

==Fire!==
Seldom do I dream, but this was no nightmare. This was a vision that shocked me awake with a searing pain. Fire! Blistering, agonizing heat! It took some time for me to realize this wasn't my pain, some memory of the flames that nearly killed me long ago, but my Master's pain.

How? Kalibarr perished during the Reckoning. He could not have survived, could he? But if he still existed, somewhere, would that not explain my everpresent nagging feeling that something important had been left undone?

My answer came as another image flashed into my mind like a club to the back of the head. It was my Master's face surrounded by the cruel, taunting images of demons.

"Master?" I said softly. I could still see his pleading eyes.

I received no answer, but I knew what I had to do. I had to find him. I had no choice.

Based upon just this much information, that Kalibarr is being tortured by demons, Gauldoth is able to figure out that he must go to the 'place from which demons get their power'. You see now why the idea that the Fiery Realm being connected to the Underworld makes sense.

He already knows that there is an otherworldly place in which demons not only draw their power but also dwell. Do we really need two such places? Do we need seperate Fiery Realm demons and Underworld demons. We've already got a kreegan/demon split so do we really need THREE types of demon.

That also is not necessary. He might just be aware that they are locust like demons that obliterate everything in path(much like burning legion from warcraft).

He knows that there are many worlds and the Kreegans are an intersteller menace. That is shown by the way he realises that the Fiery Realm (which he already knows demons get their power from) is a world that has fallen under the domination of the kreegans.

That's not certain. It may not be a magical item after all.

Can you open up portals to other worlds by blowing up your toaster? Yes it is not certain, but since Gauldoth's magical portal creation is DEPENDANT upon his understanding of how the magic of the sword work we can be rather certain that it works according to principles that Gauldoth understands, not technological principles that he does not.

Of course it could also be AND technological principles he does not understand.

He didn't know about the Fiery Realm until he actually went there himself. He just thought that a portal would teleport him somewhere. He wasn't expecting another planet, however. Also, I don't see much point in this - so, he opened the portal, but that doesn't say a whole lot. We still don't know how it worked.

That is wrong. As is demonstrated in the text box that I quoted to tress above, Gauldoth is going to find Kalibarr based upon his pre-existing knowledge of demons having another realm. He knows that demons come from some otherworldly place and that is why he sets out to get there by destroying the Angel's Blade. The reason he sets out to get there is because he knows about it already, to the extent that he knows two things.

1. That demons gain their power from it.
2. That demons actually live there.

The term Fiery Realm is not actually used by him at all, it's just the title of the mission.

This is also not necessarily true, for all we know, that planet could be the Kreegan homeworld (although I'd say it's unlikely). And even if they really needed a planet to draw some power, they would always have their homeworld. As a matter of fact, even if they didn't have their homeworld, there is nothing to suggest that the Kreegan are dependent on that power - it might make them more powerful, but there was never anything to suggest that it was mandatory for Kreegan existence. The first planet they conquered might as well have been out of sheer overwhelming force.

I actually agree with you there to a point. However given that the Angel's Blade is a weapon, it is rather likely that it works by attacking some kind of power that is vital to them.

It also attacks undead creatures, which to speculate suggests that demons "life" is perhaps magically driven by the same 'energies' as the undead are but in a more complete manner (demons are perhaps the 'perfect' undead). This would fit in with their common interest in stealing souls and the pit lords ability to raise demons from the dead. Also why they are both death creatures in Heroes IV.

And this is completely wrong. He realises that he's on another planet, because the stars and moons are different. That doesn't make him realise the true nature of the Kreegan by any stretch. And there was never the word "vital" given anywhere in relation to this.

They are demons not kreegans. He never, ever says that kreegans get their power from the Fiery Realm. We already know what the nature of kreegans is. What we didn't know is the nature of demons and what their relationship to the kreegans is.

Thank's to Gauldoth we know that kreegans create as a consequence of kreegan rule the source of some kind of power which strengthens or sustains demons.

This is mostly correct (although things like Cerberi were never mentioned in CotU if I recall correctly). .

Like that would matter. Cerberi are taken to be present unless someone disables Cerberi building in all the towns.

No, the Underworld is a cave system in Erathia. It has hallucinogenic abilities, but nothing out of the ordinary, really. Just that one of its inhabitants could walk across planes, apparently.

That is a joke right?

And so this is not a valid piece of speculation, as once again it's built on conjecture. Though it does allow me to understand how you came to such mind-boggling conclusions.

We know that demons gain their power from the Fiery Realm because the campaign text says they do.

This is gameplay mechanics. I'm fairly certain that an actual division to "might" and "magic" factions was never mentioned in the game.

It's all gameplay mechanics. If you want an example of gameplay mechanics generated text following the MightvsMagic theme then the whole Yog campaign in Shadows of Death would do.

But that's gameplay mechanics too. Actually what are you people doing playing computer games with their nasty mechanics when you can simply read a book.

Uh huh. And hitpoints can be regained by drinking a potion made of berries. Does that mean that people there are aware of their "hitpoints"? I don't think so. It's just a simplified solution to make it work in a game easily.

People don't intend to get hurt but people do intend to use mana to cast spells. They can cast only so many spells so people are going to be interested in quantifying how many spells one can cast and what are relative costs of spells etc.

That one can consume substances that raise one's mana would provide a solid basis for measurement. While the varied forms of injuries and so on does not provide the same solid basis even if you can have healing potions.

I don't really see the point in attempting to discuss with someone who makes a distinction between different types of Kreegan. There are a race of creatures called demons, these are seen in MM1-5. And I also believe the demons in Conquest of the Underworld are different creatures completely unrelated to the Kreegan. Just because the Inferno faction was used as these creatures in the scenarios you play, does not mean they are the same as the Kreegan or related to them in any way.

Slayer of Cliffracers, nothing personal against you, just your theories. I simply can not see your logic no matter how hard I try. That fact is that you interpret things your own way and then hold your own interpretations as solid proof when in fact it is not. I don't know how many posts I see where people attempt to demonstrate this.

Why are you agreeing with me? I am the one arguing that they are different creatures?

[Tress]

I am not claiming that he knows everything, only that the fact that he succeeds in using the Angel Blade item to establish a portal based upon his understanding of the way that the demons draw power from another realm despite it being in his words a 'long shot', rather indicates that this was actually the case.

Well it's not necessary so. Lets imagine that someone would tell that car goes by magic. You would experimentally work out it's max speed, controls etc, know that you need to get mana potions in tank to keep it going... while still being ignorant of it's actual method of work(internal combustion and stuff).
Now you could do all sort of things with car and still think it's magic.
For more fictional approach, check stargate series. Anything aliens did there(space ships, portals, shields weapons) was attributed to their divine powers. Even their soldiers who wielded theese weapons though they are unnatural source. People doe not need to understand how things work exactly to work with them. In Gauldoths case there is plenty of ways how sword could work, and we could still rationalize success of creating portal.

On another note, sword might just as well be focus that is attuned to demons and can shape ley lines in way Gauldoth needs , no matter is it technical, simply magical and attuned to killing demons, or feeding from demon dimension, all that matters is that it can find demons one way or another.
Both aforementioned mechanics is simple speculation which is as good as any.

Based upon just this much information, that Kalibarr is being tortured by demons, Gauldoth is able to figure out that he must go to the 'place from which demons get their power'. You see now why the idea that the Fiery Realm being connected to the Underworld makes sense.

Actually it does not say slightest thing regarding getting power from realm. He just got vision that his master is trapped in Kreegan infested place. It could just as well be below his basement or any other place. Well as magician he of course had to find it somehow based on his vision but that's another matter. There is no mention that they are feeding on that worlds power.

He knows that there are many worlds and the Kreegans are an intersteller menace. That is shown by the way he realises that the Fiery Realm (which he already knows demons get their power from) is a world that has fallen under the domination of the kreegans.

That hardly was ever any secret. It was even mentioned in mm6 intro. Doubt Falagar knew they are sci-fi aliens though. You don't need to be interstellar alien to harass one world after another. As said before , warcraft's burning legion, manages it without much sci - fi. Again there is no actual mention they feed on conquered world in such way.

Why are you agreeing with me? I am the one arguing that they are different creatures?

Yes but you are arguing that they are tied since they both use same in game units. There is no way Kreegans , Ashan demons, COU demons are related to each other. They are different species with different habitats.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Well it's not necessary so. Lets imagine that someone would tell that car goes by magic. You would experimentally work out it's max speed, controls etc, know that you need to get mana potions in tank to keep it going... while still being ignorant of it's actual method of work(internal combustion and stuff).
Now you could do all sort of things with car and still think it's magic.
For more fictional approach, check stargate series. Anything aliens did there(space ships, portals, shields weapons) was attributed to their divine powers. Even their soldiers who wielded theese weapons though they are unnatural source. People doe not need to understand how things work exactly to work with them. In Gauldoths case there is plenty of ways how sword could work, and we could still rationalize success of creating portal.

On another note, sword might just as well be focus that is attuned to demons and can shape ley lines in way Gauldoth needs , no matter is it technical, simply magical and attuned to killing demons, or feeding from demon dimension, all that matters is that it can find demons one way or another.
Both aforementioned mechanics is simple speculation which is as good as any.

Yes the old adage. "Any sufficiantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

The sword works upon the connection between demons and the source of some kind of power. As a result of this specificially Gauldoth is able to create a pretty awesome magical portal to ANOTHER PLANET!

Actually it does not say slightest thing regarding getting power from realm. He just got vision that his master is trapped in Kreegan infested place. It could just as well be below his basement or any other place. Well as magician he of course had to find it somehow based on his vision but that's another matter. There is no mention that they are feeding on that worlds power.

You are correct only about the fact that it does not say that in the specific scene. However as I have pointed out many, many times before; it does say that a bit later on.

==The Crusader==
One can't simply open a gateway to a specific location without tremendous magical power, and even then no one knows how to direct that power. That knowledge was lost long ago. However, I have a theory that a temporary gateway can be opened by unleashing a tremendous amount of magical power at a nexus point of the lines of magic that flow through everything in the Universe.

Through my studies of Nature Magic, I have learned to see these lines of magic. Finding a nexus point shouldn't be hard. Opening the gateway, however, will be much more difficult. But I think I have received a prod in the right direction.

That prod came in the form of a knight of Palaedra who came to this area on a crusade against the undead. He searches for an ancient sword rumored to be a powerful weapon against demons called the Angel's Blade. There is no question that this weapon is connected to the realm that gives a demon its powers, otherwise it wouldn't be so effective against one.

It is my hope to find the Angel's Blade first. When I shatter it at a magical nexus point, I believe it will create a gateway to the realm where my Master awaits. A long shot, I know, but what choice do I have?

I underlined the bit that people really seem to miss. There is no question that this is so according to Gauldoth. It is not Gauldoth's crazy theory, it is pretty much already accepted in educated circles in the Death Faction at least that the following fact is true.

1. That demons draw some kind of power from another realm.

Like it or not, I am not merely making a speculate leap in the dark here, I am merely pointing out that the demon power thing is quite solidly based upon canonical info.

That he does not immediately go searching the basements of Axeoth points to another fact being known.

2. That demons live in this realm and that it is their main base and consequently where they would take their prisoners in order to securely torture them. So not only do they draw their power from it, they are also based there.

This is why I theorise that perhaps the Underworld and the Fiery Realm are the same thing, or at least connected.

That hardly was ever any secret. It was even mentioned in mm6 intro. Doubt Falagar knew they are sci-fi aliens though. You don't need to be interstellar alien to harass one world after another. As said before , warcraft's burning legion, manages it without much sci - fi. Again there is no actual mention they feed on conquered world in such way.

You have to know that the stars aren't just pretty lights in the sky Tress. This might seem self-evident to us, but to a world at a medieval level of development it isn't so obvious.

Why it's important is that his realisation that the source of the demons power is a world that have fallen to the Kreegans is that acts as the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle. His discovery makes sense of the demon-kreegan alliance, the demons work for the kreegans because in the end when the world is a ruin and the kreegans have moved on or died it becomes a source of power for them on a intersteller scale.

Yes but you are arguing that they are tied since they both use same in game units. There is no way Kreegans , Ashan demons, COU demons are related to each other. They are different species with different habitats.

A thing about game units. Take for instance the barbarian faction, all it's units since Heroes I are apparantly orcish! Do the human barbarians not actually do any fighting? No I don't think so. I think that the humans are represented by orcs because on balance there are more orcs in the Stronghold faction than humans and humans are functionally identical to orcs in all militery respects.

The kreegans warriors if one were to field them could be identical to devils. They could teleport towards their enemies using technology and tear them apart with their claws and technologically enhanced strength, while CoU devils/Ashan devils teleport towards their enemies using magic and dispatch them with huge nasty great weapons (to the same functional effect). The devil unit is the only unit powerful enough to truly be a sci-fi enemy!

However two facts.
1. Devils exist on Enroth-world seperately of Kreegans.
2. There are only ever a few devils, so if you imagine all your devils to be actual kreegans, they will still only make up a tiny fraction of your army.

Since only a tiny fraction of your army can be kreegans, unless you want your highly advanced alien menace to cower before relatively small numbers of people with pointy sticks, it is required that there be an alliance between demon and kreegan for the Inferno faction to exist! And as I have already discussed, the relationship is seemingly an ecological one, the kreegans make the worlds that give power to the demons and which they dwell.

Finally on the question of Ashan vs CoU demons. Well is a fire elemental on Ashan related to a fire elemental on Enroth? Certainly I can see no reason why demons on Ashan should not be the same creature with the same basic nature as on Enroth. It just seems that in the latter case they are less significant in history, but it could just be that they are further away from a 'Fiery Realm' and so have less power or somesuch.

[Tress]

The sword works upon the connection between demons and the source of some kind of power. As a result of this specificially Gauldoth is able to create a pretty awesome magical portal to ANOTHER PLANET!

So why again two other options I mentioned cant work just as well? Besides again how exactly even if it works your way, allows opening portal.
Again Gauldoth does not need to know exact mechanics in order to perform ritual. Do you know how fusion reactor works? No, but I guess most know that connecting it to grid will cause electricity to flow.

You are correct only about the fact that it does not say that in the specific scene. However as I have pointed out many, many times before; it does say that a bit later on.. There is no question that this weapon is connected to the realm that gives a demon its powers, otherwise it wouldn't be so effective against one.

This as I already pointed out is not fact. It is Gauldoths presumption based on weapons efficiency(even more that he at that point havent seen yet). If Gauldoth would sse space ship he might have made similar statements. as how else it could work(after all he is expert in necromancy and magic not nano technology).

1. That demons draw some kind of power from another realm.

There is no other basis on this asside single sentence(that also is presumption ) which is way too less to claim it as fact. Even more cosnidering that Kreegan shown in other mm games never show need for extra dimensional power.

2. That demons live in this realm and that it is their main base and consequently where they would take their prisoners in order to securely torture them. So not only do they draw their power from it, they are also based there.

It may be just one a conquered world(perhaps nearest to axeoth/enroth), or it may be the homeworld. We have no basis to speculate which is it. Even more there is no basis to connect it to underworld.

You have to know that the stars aren't just pretty lights in the sky Tress. This might seem self-evident to us, but to a world at a medieval level of development it isn't so obvious.

Peasant likely arent but people like gauldoth and other high ranking wizards/magicians would certainly be aware of other worlds. They are even somewhat aware of ancient tech, while they may not understand it fully.

1. Devils exist on Enroth-world seperately of Kreegans.
2. There are only ever a few devils, so if you imagine all your devils to be actual kreegans, they will still only make up a tiny fraction of your army

.
1 Considering COU, likely so.
2 I have no basis to speculate how much actual demons we have. Perhaps they are not so aggressive to meddle with humans directly.

Finally on the question of Ashan vs CoU demons.

Ashan have solid back story lore which certainly separates any element on ashan from anything in homm1-4 /mm 1-9. AShan demons have certain backstory, certain ecology(inability to live in material world for long) and so on. There is no reason to drag theese 3 elements together.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

So why again two other options I mentioned cant work just as well? Besides again how exactly even if it works your way, allows opening portal.
Again Gauldoth does not need to know exact mechanics in order to perform ritual. Do you know how fusion reactor works? No, but I guess most know that connecting it to grid will cause electricity to flow.

Well he builds his ritual based upon his theoretical understanding of the mechanics of how an object that is so effective against demons would presumably work. Note that he already knows that demons draw power from another realm, this is a reference to what is already known by him to be true.

He does not merely use the Angel's Blade, he destroys it as part of a ritual which rather crucially works. That he does so is dependant upon his theoretical understanding of how the object probably functions, that said ritual works indicates that theoretical understanding was probably correct.

This as I already pointed out is not fact. It is Gauldoths presumption based on weapons efficiency(even more that he at that point havent seen yet). If Gauldoth would sse space ship he might have made similar statements. as how else it could work(after all he is expert in necromancy and magic not nano technology).

The presumption is that the Angel's Blade works in that way. Another presumption is that the Angel's Blade if destroyed at a particular place could be used to open up a portal to the source of the demon's power. It actually doesn't matter if the Blade actually works by nanobots, crystals, laser beams etc. What matters is that Gauldoth knows something to be true.

He knows it to be true that the demons draw power from another realm and he succeeeds in travelling to that realm, rescuing Kalibarr and discovering that the realm is a planet that has fallen to the kreegans.

There is no other basis on this asside single sentence(that also is presumption ) which is way too less to claim it as fact. Even more cosnidering that Kreegan shown in other mm games never show need for extra dimensional power.

Remember that I am not arguing that kreegans and demons are the same thing. Gauldoth could quite easily be reffering only to the latter. But when he talks about the planet he specifically mentions kreegans.

The sentence is quite enough. It says that the people of Axeoth at the time knew that the demons gain power from some other realm, what basis do we have to contradict them?

It may be just one a conquered world(perhaps nearest to axeoth/enroth), or it may be the homeworld. We have no basis to speculate which is it. Even more there is no basis to connect it to underworld.

It says what it is. It says that it is a world that fell under to dominion of the kreegans. The kreegans don't have a homeworld because they are nomadic locust-like race. Whatever world they would originally have lived on would have been rendered unihabitable to them long ago.

There is also a basis to connect it to the Underworld. One reason is the people of Axeoth are clearly aware that the demons inhabit some other realm and draw their power from there. Where did they come about such knowledge from I ask? They haven't been to the Fiery Realm but they have been to the Underworld.

A second reason is simplicity. We do not need to have two groups of demons, one living in the Underworld, the second living in the Fiery Realm when we can combine both groups into a single group of demons inhabiting the same place.

The third reason is plot. Gauldoth automatically knows where to go, he doesn't have to agonise about which type of demons is torturing Kalibarr so as to know whether to go to the Underworld or Fiery Realm.

Peasant likely arent but people like gauldoth and other high ranking wizards/magicians would certainly be aware of other worlds. They are even somewhat aware of ancient tech, while they may not understand it fully.

Yes which means we cannot dismiss what he says about demons drawing power from another realm as a result of ignorance and superstition.

1 Considering COU, likely so.
2 I have no basis to speculate how much actual demons we have. Perhaps they are not so aggressive to meddle with humans directly.

1. Demons are not devils. Devils can be kreegans, but there is also a type of demon called a devil after which kreegans were presumably named devils.

2. The ordinery demons serve the devils which themselves serve the kreegans. Before the kreegan's arrival the demons were probably cautious, that was informed by their awareness of their weakness rather than a lack of will to conquer Enroth-planet. They only became very aggressive when the kreegans arrived, because kreegans were both potentially very powerful and ultimately create worlds which provide demons with power.

Ashan have solid back story lore which certainly separates any element on ashan from anything in homm1-4 /mm 1-9. AShan demons have certain backstory, certain ecology(inability to live in material world for long) and so on. There is no reason to drag theese 3 elements together.

Yet Heroes V demons bear such a resemblance to Heroes III demons do they not? They have the following.

1. Mana stealing and numerous Imp/Familiar creatures.
2. Hellhound/Cerberus.
3. A basic horned demon creature.
4. Powerful teleporting devil creature.

On the question of ecology, the demons of Ashan are rather attracted to molten lava enviroments and so are the Enroth demons. About the inability to live in the material world one must regard two things.

1. Sar-Elam installing anti-demon defenses on Ashan but not on Enroth.
2. This inability is clearly not absolute and we have no reason NOT to believe that Enroth demons aren't labouring under the same restriction.

Actually again, why can't Ashan and Enroth demons be varients of same basic type of creature on different planets? Any concrete problem with this?