The Kreegan

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 24 Jul 2012, 11:22

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
The best way to look at it is to see it as a bit like Rome and Byzantium. The Kreegans are not the same thing as the kreegans.

etc..
Perhaps this is a bit of topic, but if this be true, then whom the Destroyer was sent against ? If the Kreegans were not the Kreegans and the "real Kreegans" have been destroyed with some help from the Ancients, then why they sent the Destroyer then ?

This lead to another question about the significance of Armageddon's Blade for the Kreegans (both type :-D ). If its main purpose is to destroy the world, then why made it in the first place ? The Destroyer would be send anywhere they go. Thus they can simply waiting for him and let him destroy everything then.

IIRC Armageddon's Blade destroyed the world only when it collided with the Sword of Frost. Neither the Kreegans, the Ancients nor the Destroyer had a hand in there.

If Xenofex really betting on it, just how much chance that Gelu and Kilgor would actually used them in such a manner ?

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Unread postby XEL II » 24 Jul 2012, 13:07

Armageddon's Blade was not to destroy the world (i.e. explode the planet or something like that), but rather to help Kreegans compeltely devastate and burn it and conquer it. It is a very powerful artifact, but it shouldn't be overestimated -- while powerful, it's not the instant "end-of-the-world weapon" (thugh it would surely be something like that couple with Eeofol's legions).
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 24 Jul 2012, 14:13

XEL II wrote: Yeah, he only was one of its main developers :)
I was afraid it might be something like that. :devious: :devious:

Image

But then we ended up with this. Perhaps they were originally supposed to be aliens that looked like demons as Greg said, trouble is that the rest of the team appear to have taken this a bit literally and populated the world with traditional fantasy demons complete with basically a hell-like place complete with a fiery pit where the souls of the damned descend as can be seen above. These aren't aliens that happen to look like demons, they now resemble demons so completely that they ARE demons.

This theme of course been expanded upon in Heroes IV, Heroes V, Heroes VI and Dark Messiah. So basically speaking the demons won over the aliens in the actual development of the series. Sad perhaps but true never the less.
Avonu wrote: As for the rest - no comment. You have been told no once, not twice, not even dozens of time about game facts and you still want to ignore them. Your choise, but your "Truth" will never be "righter", then what have been told in games or from game creators themselves.
Two things. Firstly I have already told you about Death of the Author, what the authors say is not neccesarily automatically true simply because they happen to say it. Also Might and Magic is a Shared Universe, which means that it is shaped by many authors. Here's what Tvtropes Death of the Author article says about Share Universes.
TvTropes wrote: This is a given in works where the authors don't hold copyright and can be replaced, especially Shared Universes; if a writer is fired and replaced by another, anything the old writer has stated in interviews can be (and often is) freely Jossed by the new writer.
It is a given, which means that even if in general one does not accept Death of the Author, because Might and Magic is a Shared Universe then Death of the Author applies. What this means is that one cannot wield the statements of authors when dealing with Might and Magic Verse as if they were equal to canon. Quite simply, a large number of people, working for a large number of companies have collectively created Might and Magic universe (especially if you include gameplay and art); the names of many of whom we probably do not even know. There is no way it can remain faithful to single authors vision.

Secondly I have indeed been told about facts and have always adapted my opinions to the facts. None of my theories are exactly the same as they originally were, they have always been changed as new facts come to light, but the people I disagree with have an annoying tendancy to ignore any facts I have brought to bear supporting my theories.
BoardGuest80888 wrote: Perhaps this is a bit of topic, but if this be true, then whom the Destroyer was sent against ? If the Kreegans were not the Kreegans and the "real Kreegans" have been destroyed with some help from the Ancients, then why they sent the Destroyer then ?
It is not off-topic in any sense, Escaton was originally activated because of the presence of kreegans was initially considered too much for the primitive natives to deal with. The possibility of the natives destroying the Kreegans was not factored into the equation.

Consequently Escaton was unable to stop the convergance, he's a computer really not a sentient being. There is no off-switch for Escaton, probably intentionally because otherwise the Kreegans might use it.
BoardGuest80888 wrote: This lead to another question about the significance of Armageddon's Blade for the Kreegans (both type big smile ). If its main purpose is to destroy the world, then why made it in the first place ? The Destroyer would be send anywhere they go. Thus they can simply waiting for him and let him destroy everything then.
Because essentially the form of destruction that Escaton represents is a kind of reboot. It is the recreation of the original state which the Ancients will then use to create a new world eventually.

The kind of destruction that Armageddon's Blade represents however does not have this effect. Armageddon's Blade was accidentally used, that's what the Reckoning was. It leaves a world with no inhabitents nor Ancient installed defense systems to prevent demons from taking over and 'converting' it into a 'Fiery Realm' planet like the one in Heroes IV.

The kreegans are a race that essentially approximate the behavior of a plague of locusts but on an intersteller scale. They arrive, multiply, devour everything and move on. They didn't arrive with an Armageddon's Blade because they are biological creatures ultimately, they want the resources of the planet to live. Kreegans unintentiallymake a place a barren polluted wasteland, demons intentially make a world a molten volcanic wasteland.

Kreegans are from a demonic POV a means to get rid of troublesome locals. Demons are from a kreegan POV useful allies in their conquest of the planet, keeping everyone busy while they built up their strength. A bit like the Cult of Baa but more useful.

The reason the kreegans eventually tried to build Armageddon's Blade was politics. They had been in charge of the Kreegans for some time, but when in Might and Magic VII the last Kreegan hive and queen was killed (they are like social insects in the way they live and reproduce), but with no means of multiplying they could no longer get rid of the pesky locals for their demonic 'allies'. So enter Armageddon's Blade. Remember that there is no Kreegan future, only a few Kreegans in command of the demons.

What they intended to do once they had Armageddon's Blade is a question. Likely they would bargain with the demons, getting themselves a place in the Fiery Realm as high-ranking demons in their own right and so continuing to rule over their demonic servants forever.
BoardGuest80888 wrote: IIRC Armageddon's Blade destroyed the world only when it collided with the Sword of Frost. Neither the Kreegans, the Ancients nor the Destroyer had a hand in there.

If Xenofex really betting on it, just how much chance that Gelu and Kilgor would actually used them in such a manner ?
By that time the kreegans had been wiped out and the Rome to Byzantium transformation was complete, the Kreegans went home to the Fiery Realm. Yes the Reckoning was Armageddon's Blade at work and it was completely an 'accident'.

But yes Lucifer Kreegan could have activated Armageddon's Blade but I doubt he shared the secret with the Kreegans in general or with anyone else. Politics remember, he has to made himself invaluable.
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Unread postby XEL II » 24 Jul 2012, 17:11

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: Image
This picture only serves to show that 7th level Devils from Inferno are quite similar to Kreegans first shown in MM6 in complexion (especially the overall body structure, legs, eyes). The environment pictured here isn't "hell" or something, it's one of Infernos, places known to be sites of Kreegans torturing their captives.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Avonu » 24 Jul 2012, 17:38

Here's what Tvtropes Death of the Author article says about Share Universes.
TvTropes are not Truth in Television. :P

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 26 Jul 2012, 12:12

XEL II wrote: This picture only serves to show that 7th level Devils from Inferno are quite similar to Kreegans first shown in MM6 in complexion (especially the overall body structure, legs, eyes). The environment pictured here isn't "hell" or something, it's one of Infernos, places known to be sites of Kreegans torturing their captives.
I'm afraid you are wrong XEL. But yes it could be, I was just pointing out the general theme is that of demons from hell and not aliens from Outer Space. I have better evidence and don't have to nitpack about details.

Image

These are Kreegans from Might and Magic VI. They do bear a certainly resemblance to demons which has been noted, but they are very much different in appearance to the devil depicted in Heroes III.

Image

The depiction here is very faithful to the way the Kreegan units appear as units in the game. Minus the scythe, you have a pretty good (but not exact) replication of how the Heroes III archdevil looks.

Image

Compare with the devil

Image

Now they look a bit more like the horned boss Kreegan (that it is a leader is not actually confirmed but is inferred). So we'll work on the differences between it and the horned Kreegan.

Image

1. Devils tower above other creatures as can be seen on this site by comparinng the heights of the unit graphics. Kreegans on the other hand's height as can be seen more clearly in the Might and Magic intro itself as being roughly mansized.

2. The horns of the horned Kreegans point straight up, look distinctly metallic (doesn't mean they are metal) and look like they could be used as a pretty lethal weapon. The others have funny mickey mouse hornlike protusions (or are they ears?). The horns of the devils are ornate, clearly made of keratine like the horns of animals and cast backwards so that they could only be used with great difficulty as weapons, looking to be more decorative than anything else.

3. Devils have pointy elf-like ears, Kreegans do not have ears at all.

4. Devils have white, strongly glowing eyes. Kreegans have red, dimly glowing eyes.

5. Kreegans despite being so advanced appear to eschew nearly all clothing. Devils on the other hand are rather well dressed and take great pride it seems in the way their clothing looks, in addition to adorning themselves with jewelry and 'occult' symbols.

6. The devils wield large, bulky (and low-tech) weaponry in the form of huge two handed sythes. Despite the obvious option of arming themselves, the Kreegans appear to be unarmed, although likely they use biological enhancements, teleportation and shielding to compensate for this so they are just as deadly.

7. Devils have hair on their head, Kreegans do not appear to have hair anywhere on their bodies.


Now I have established pretty conclusively that the Kreegans are not the Devils of Heroes III then I can provide evidence to the independant existance of 'supernatural' devils on Enroth-world. Enter Heroes Chronicles Conquest of the Underworld.

We see here King Gryphonheart's soul being stolen from Paradise, whatever or wherever that is by a Devil. Now if Devils are Kreegans, then what are they doing travelling to Paradise and stealing souls? Do they even believe in souls? We see the trademark white glowing eyes of the Heroes III devil in the cutscene above.

This is set confusingly before the King Gryphonheart we know died and the Restoration wars happened, about three generations I think judging from This Wiki. There are at this point NO KREEGANS in Enroth-world. If Kreegans are the Inferno faction then how can Tarnum fight the Kreegans to save Rion Gryphonheart's soul?

We also see the portal the devil opens in the lake to exit the Underworld. It is fiery, the Underworld is a fiery, molten place.

Image

Tarnum has to fight DEVILS as can be seen from the initial mission of Conquest of the Underworld. So they are not demons as in some other seperate kind of creatures, they are devils. So if devils are kreegans, then that would mean that Tarnum was fighting kreegans to get into the Underworld before there were any kreegans on Ashan. And the devils in Chronicles are obviously the same as the devils in Heroes III because the two games use the same graphics, mechanics and in the imagery of both they are depicted in a similar manner (the white glowing eyes!).

:) :) It seems that the way I concieved of the universe bieng structured in this thread wasn't too far off. this thread

Image

Except that the Fiery Realm is in fact called the Underworld.
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Unread postby XEL II » 26 Jul 2012, 12:18

On those pictures from the Chronicles are Underworld Demons, just native Enrothian monsters from the Underworld (deep caves and tunnels under Erathia). Demons are nothing new to the Might and Magic series, they hamve made appearances long before Kreegans.

And yes, Kreegan "devils" from HoMM3 and MM 6-7 are indeed very similar in complexion. They are not identical, for sure, but that's what is to be expected with different creatures from the same race. Humans, goblins, elves, dragons, etc. aren't identical, why should be the Kreegan?

The "satanic" theme with Kreegans is in their clothing, and it was also present in MM6. The similarity to demons is present in all Kreegans' appearance. It's not that strong, but their looks are demonic enough to lead the populace (along with their violent and monstrous behavior) to mistaking them for such.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby XEL II » 26 Jul 2012, 12:22

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:And the devils in Chronicles are obviously the same as the devils in Heroes III
They are not. The fact that Infernos are used to depict the Underworld Demons in CotU is just part of the game mechanics. Chronicles were msotly working with resources from SoD, not introducing any new gameplay elements. Thus, the "demonic" themed town type was used to represent Demons in gameplay. Similarily, Vori elves were represented by Ramparts in some maps of TSoF.

The non-Kreegan creatures of the Infernos (imps, magogs) do indeed make story appearances in CotU.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 26 Jul 2012, 13:15

XEL II wrote:On those pictures from the Chronicles are Underworld Demons, just native Enrothian monsters from the Underworld (deep caves and tunnels under Erathia). Demons are nothing new to the Might and Magic series, they hamve made appearances long before Kreegans.
These demons travel to Paradise and steal souls which they take to their own realm to keep prisoner? Oh please, they aren't just ordinery monsterous beings that happen to live in caves! That's the Nighon Overlords/Dungeon!

Yes there were demons and devils on Enroth before the Kreegans arrived just as there are devils and devils on Ashan and Kreegans haven't arrived there (yet at least!). The objectives of the demons and devils on both worlds are to conquer everyone, cover the planet with portals to their home realm and turn it into a molten hell-on-earth.

But just as on Ashan, they are too weak to consistantly defeat the locals, the are defeated as often as they win (on Enroth they are actually weaker than on Ashan probably). This means that they do not themselves have the power to usually conquer a world on their own. They are desperate to find anything that can tip the balance against the mortal creatures of the planet.

Enter the Kreegans. The demons and devils flocked to the Kreegan banner and eventually the whole Kreegan faction was pretty much entirely 'demonised'. The Kreegans have no reason to bother wasting their time and resources actually deploying their kreegan troops, because the demons will happily die for them and distract the locals while they build up their numbers for the final conquest. Think what Kha-Bhaleth would do if the Kreegans showed up in Ashan. :creative: :creative:

But when the Kreegans became unable to multiply as they were after Might and Magic VII they faced a challenge to their position because they were no longer in a position to ever fulfil 'their part of the bargain'. So the remaining kreegans came up with a plan to fulfill their part of the bargain by substituting their armies with Armageddon's Blade, all to mantain control over the faction.
XEL II wrote: And yes, Kreegan "devils" from HoMM3 and MM 6-7 are indeed very similar in complexion. They are not identical, for sure, but that's what is to be expected with different creatures from the same race. Humans, goblins, elves, dragons, etc. aren't identical, why should be the Kreegan?

The "satanic" theme with Kreegans is in their clothing, and it was also present in MM6. The similarity to demons is present in all Kreegans' appearance. It's not that strong, but their looks are demonic enough to lead the populace (along with their violent and monstrous behavior) to mistaking them for such.
They don't have clothing by the looks of it. Except for a few cloaks they are naked. The problem is quite simply the Devil creature is revealed to have existed on Enroth long before the Kreegans ever arrived XEL II.

There are natural limitations to the amount of variation that can be found withing a single species. The kind of differences between the kreegans depicted in Might and Magic and the devils of Heroes III/Chronicles are rather more akin to the differences between a human and a monkey than between different races of human being. And there won't be much racial variation within the Kreegan race anyway because it all recently spread out from a single population.

What similarities between them originate I speculate from the fact that both are creations of the Creators. They work together to expand the nebulous realm of the Creators at the expense of the Ancients creation. The kreegans eliminate the locals and consume all resources that might sustain those locals and then the demons move into the wasteland and transform it into a Fiery Realm, that is an extension of the Creators home plane, whatever it is actually best called.
XEL II wrote: They are not. The fact that Infernos are used to depict the Underworld Demons in CotU is just part of the game mechanics. Chronicles were msotly working with resources from SoD, not introducing any new gameplay elements. Thus, the "demonic" themed town type was used to represent Demons in gameplay. Similarily, Vori elves were represented by Ramparts in some maps of TSoF.

The non-Kreegan creatures of the Infernos (imps, magogs) do indeed make story appearances in CotU.
What exactly counts as a 'game mechanic' XEL II? Is there is any real problem with the Vori elves being represented by Ramparts? Why would Vori methods of warfare be notably different from the methods of the elves of AvLee anyway? (especially given it has apparantly been at peace for some time and AvLee has not) Yes they can't be realistically white-skinned, but neither can dark skinned humans be realistically represented by white-skinned pikemen. But as they are armed, armoured and trained in the same way then there is no sense in saying that it is just a game mechanic that they are the same just because the programming team had better things to do than allow you to customise the appearance of every town on every map to better represent what they canonically would look like.

Devils are specifically mentioned below and you said that devils are a kreegan unit. So kreegan units (according to you) are mentioned in the story as well not just non-kreegan one's.

Image
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Unread postby XEL II » 26 Jul 2012, 15:49

Just like Avonu, I give up. That's not a concession, mind, you, but just like him, I can see that you continuously ignore all the canonical facts and valid responses to your claims, instead distorting them to match your own Might and Magic universe.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby MMXAlamar » 28 Jul 2012, 01:50

Jesus you guys write way too much! Someone care to summarize this? lol

From my understanding, there are different tiers of Kreegan with different levels of intelligence. For example, in Heroes you have demons, pit fiends, etc, as well as devils. In MM you have devils with different abilities. In both series' you have devil heroes (Xenofex in MM, Lucifer & Xeron & many more in Heroes).

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Unread postby Avonu » 28 Jul 2012, 09:43

MMXAlamar wrote:Jesus you guys write way too much! Someone care to summarize this? lol
No. :P
Don't be lazy and read what was posted, it's only 4 pages and you can skip all Slayers' posts as they are pure fan-fiction.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 28 Jul 2012, 11:55

XEL II wrote: And yes, Kreegan "devils" from HoMM3 and MM 6-7 are indeed very similar in complexion. They are not identical, for sure, but that's what is to be expected with different creatures from the same race. Humans, goblins, elves, dragons, etc. aren't identical, why should be the Kreegan?
Me thinks that be just graphical style, not much significant essence there. They might be different, but meant to depict same creatures.
XEL II wrote:Armageddon's Blade was not to destroy the world (i.e. explode the planet or something like that), but rather to help Kreegans compeltely devastate and burn it and conquer it. It is a very powerful artifact, but it shouldn't be overestimated -- while powerful, it's not the instant "end-of-the-world weapon" (thugh it would surely be something like that couple with Eeofol's legions).
Yeah, but wouldn't the result be same ? I mean, according to that Destroyer man, Antagarich wasn't the first world to be invaded by the Kreegans anyway. And that clearly not the first conflict between the Ancients and the Kreegans. Wouldn't the Kreegans know if they, by any means, could actually conquer a world (made by the Ancients), then the Destroyer would be sent to destroy that world, thus negating their conquest in the first place ?

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 28 Jul 2012, 12:12

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: These demons travel to Paradise and steal souls which they take to their own realm to keep prisoner? Oh please, they aren't just ordinery monsterous beings that happen to live in caves! That's the Nighon Overlords/Dungeon!

etc..
If 'twas like what u said, then why the Kreegans get demonized and not the other way around ? The Kreegans might lose in Antagarich, but that doesn't mean they be losing everywhere else too (and at the same time). That Destroyer man already mentioned that as well.

Also remember in HoMM 3, not all Inferno troops are the Kreegans. There be denizens of Plane of Fire like Efreeti and Gogs too.
MMXAlamar wrote:Jesus you guys write way too much! Someone care to summarize this? lol

From my understanding, there are different tiers of Kreegan with different levels of intelligence. For example, in Heroes you have demons, pit fiends, etc, as well as devils. In MM you have devils with different abilities. In both series' you have devil heroes (Xenofex in MM, Lucifer & Xeron & many more in Heroes).
Ho ho ho...don't ye think to get away that easily now.... Ye've opened a pandora box here :D :D :D

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 28 Jul 2012, 15:14

XEL II wrote:Just like Avonu, I give up. That's not a concession, mind, you, but just like him, I can see that you continuously ignore all the canonical facts and valid responses to your claims, instead distorting them to match your own Might and Magic universe.
As opposed to fitting them into your Might and Magic universe. I put great amount of time and effort into explaining how what I say makes sense given all the canonical facts and I get acccused of 'ignoring valid responses to my claims'. What do you want from me XEL II, my soul?

I am rather tired of Avonu's intolerance and vicious remarks as well.
Avonu wrote: No. :P
Don't be lazy and read what was posted, it's only 4 pages and you can skip all Slayers' posts as they are pure fan-fiction.
Refuse to actually debate with your opponant and instead resort to vicious backhanded comments designed to poison other people against them. Nice 'style' Avonu.
BoardGuest808888 wrote: If 'twas like what u said, then why the Kreegans get demonized and not the other way around ? The Kreegans might lose in Antagarich, but that doesn't mean they be losing everywhere else too (and at the same time). That Destroyer man already mentioned that as well.

Also remember in HoMM 3, not all Inferno troops are the Kreegans. There be denizens of Plane of Fire like Efreeti and Gogs too.
The Kreegans initially arrive in Enroth-continent in Might and Magic VI and build their initial hive there. But that Hive is destroyed during the course of that game. Some of them escape to Antagarich and build a new hive in a place called Eofol (driving the halflings out of it with the help of their allies).

That was the only serious population of kreegans on Enroth-world at the time. So when that hive is destroyed, it is all over for the Kreegans because that is the only place they are established. It was destroyed after the Restoration Wars but before Armageddon's Blade in Heroes III era.

It was the allies of the kreegans, that is the Inferno faction in it's entirety (including the efreeti and gogs) that faught against Queen Catherine and so on under the ultimate command of the actual kreegans; forming the Kreegan faction mentioned in the campaign. The Kreegans did not actually mobilise their kreegan forces in any great number, this we know for one simple reason (they lost!). They intended to build up their numbers in Eofol and eventually make a decisive intervention to crush Erathia and then take over the world. But they were defeated in Might and Magic VII and their last hive was destroyed.

The thing is that the Inferno faction existed before the Kreegans ever arrived and all it's units as well (including the devils!), this is shown in Conquest of the Underworld. The Inferno faction is not solely made up of kreegans, so actually kreegans are actually not essential to it. They were 'just' betting on them being able to breed an immense swarm of technologically enhanced killing machines. :creative: :creative:

With the last Kreegan queen dead, the surviving kreegan rulers of the Kreegans were no longer able to promise the Inferno faction this elusive prize SO they had to offer them another means to the same end; Armagedon's Blade. They had to promise the destruction of the whole world and all it's resources just to stay in power.

Unlike the kreegans who just want to breed, multiply, feed ect until the world is a barren polluted wasteland and them move on, the Inferno faction has more 'supernatural' objectives. They exist to extend their 'Fiery Realm' also called the 'Underworld' I think to yet another world reducing it to a molten hell. Such a world is depicted in Heroes IV as a world that has 'known the dominion of the Kreegans'.

(warning, this is speculation)
The way I look at it is this. Every plane has elementals aligned to that plane. The Fire Plane has fire elementals, the water plane has water elementals. I speculate that just maybe the Ancients are the elementals of the Material Plane and their advanced technology and science is really an expression of their 'elemental' affinity with their own plane (reality). The Ancients great enemies are the Creators who canonically live in a 'nebulous realm' and these create chaotic armies such as the Kreegans to attack the Ancients worlds. The demons perhaps are another such an army and while following their seperate ends work together ultimately for the realisation of one purpose, the expansion of the Creators realm. The Creators are the elemental lords of the Anti-Reality, opposed to the Ancients Reality just as Fire Plane opposes Water Plane.

The Anti-Reality has an affinity with magma, which is why demons like volcanos so much! This is because magma represents the fusion of all six elements (air, water, earth, fire, light, darkness). As the Ancients rule over the Space which seperates elements the Creators rule over 'Pure' Magma, pure undifferentiated substance that negates form, seperation and differentiation, why their realm is described as nebulous.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

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Unread postby tolich » 28 Jul 2012, 16:16

In MM7 the infernal allies of warlock are explicitly called Kreegans. As mentioned, warlocks found them while digging tunnels to Eofol.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 28 Jul 2012, 19:23

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:As opposed to fitting them into your Might and Magic universe. I put great amount of time and effort into explaining how what I say makes sense given all the canonical facts and I get acccused of 'ignoring valid responses to my claims'. What do you want from me XEL II, my soul?

I am rather tired of Avonu's intolerance and vicious remarks as well.
I used to skip over your posts as well because, as noted before, they are mostly speculation without anything in canon backing it up. But at least you're stubborn enough to continue, so perhaps, with a bit of practise, you can separate speculation from facts after all. See, there is a lot of things that we don't know about the Might and Magic universe, and while we can draw some new conclusions from what we already know, you often go too far with some of those. Of course, long posts are not helping, either, as discussing that gets difficult with all the quotes and requotes.

Anyway, looking exclusively at your last post, here are the things that I noticed:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The Kreegans initially arrive in Enroth-continent in Might and Magic VI and build their initial hive there. But that Hive is destroyed during the course of that game. Some of them escape to Antagarich and build a new hive in a place called Eofol (driving the halflings out of it with the help of their allies).
Colony Zod was not a hive, there was no queen there.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:That was the only serious population of kreegans on Enroth-world at the time. So when that hive is destroyed, it is all over for the Kreegans because that is the only place they are established. It was destroyed after the Restoration Wars but before Armageddon's Blade in Heroes III era.

It was the allies of the kreegans, that is the Inferno faction in it's entirety (including the efreeti and gogs) that faught against Queen Catherine and so on under the ultimate command of the actual kreegans; forming the Kreegan faction mentioned in the campaign. The Kreegans did not actually mobilise their kreegan forces in any great number, this we know for one simple reason (they lost!). They intended to build up their numbers in Eofol and eventually make a decisive intervention to crush Erathia and then take over the world. But they were defeated in Might and Magic VII and their last hive was destroyed.
While we can't say for certain that there were no other Kreegan outposts of the planet (we don't know how many ships they sent to the planet of Enroth), I would generally agree with you here.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The thing is that the Inferno faction existed before the Kreegans ever arrived and all it's units as well (including the devils!), this is shown in Conquest of the Underworld. The Inferno faction is not solely made up of kreegans, so actually kreegans are actually not essential to it. They were 'just' betting on them being able to breed an immense swarm of technologically enhanced killing machines. :creative: :creative:
And here we go into the uncertain territory. How would you define the "Inferno faction"? By gameplay mechanics? It doesn't work that way. From all I've seen, CotU Inferno (demons) have nothing in common with the Kreegan, except for the town appearance and the use of the word "demon". As for Kreegan ally motivation, it's now in pure speculation territory - we just don't know that. It could be as you said; it could just as well have been that they used a gadget to brainwash them; it could have been that their allies liked their appearance; it could have been that they were mind controlled by an unknown species. We just don't have the information to draw any conclusions here, and in this case it's better off not to draw any. You can explain your theory, but it's not canon, and anyone is free to speculate - as long as things are labelled as such, and not as facts.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:With the last Kreegan queen dead, the surviving kreegan rulers of the Kreegans were no longer able to promise the Inferno faction this elusive prize SO they had to offer them another means to the same end; Armagedon's Blade. They had to promise the destruction of the whole world and all it's resources just to stay in power.
Once again, speculation built on the previous speculation. Plus, why would the allies of the Kreegan want to destroy the world? No, that's the Kreegan agenda. At this point, my "brainwashing" speculation seems more likely!
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Unlike the kreegans who just want to breed, multiply, feed ect until the world is a barren polluted wasteland and them move on, the Inferno faction has more 'supernatural' objectives. They exist to extend their 'Fiery Realm' also called the 'Underworld' I think to yet another world reducing it to a molten hell. Such a world is depicted in Heroes IV as a world that has 'known the dominion of the Kreegans'.
And here we come up to a point where you have speculation based on speculation based on speculation based on personal interpretation. Which, in my view, is completely false. The Fiery Realm is a planet conquered by the Kreegan. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, to suggest that their allies are involved. And the Underworld is not related, it's just a random cave with random demons. Again, there is no canonical source to suggest otherwise. Your guess is just as good any anyone else's - or worse, as it's based on a lot of speculation.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:(warning, this is speculation)
The way I look at it is this. Every plane has elementals aligned to that plane. The Fire Plane has fire elementals, the water plane has water elementals. I speculate that just maybe the Ancients are the elementals of the Material Plane and their advanced technology and science is really an expression of their 'elemental' affinity with their own plane (reality). The Ancients great enemies are the Creators who canonically live in a 'nebulous realm' and these create chaotic armies such as the Kreegans to attack the Ancients worlds. The demons perhaps are another such an army and while following their seperate ends work together ultimately for the realisation of one purpose, the expansion of the Creators realm. The Creators are the elemental lords of the Anti-Reality, opposed to the Ancients Reality just as Fire Plane opposes Water Plane.
Right, and what you call "speculation" we call "fan fiction" - this is not only based on a lot of speculation, but some of it is just taken out of thin air. From the canonical facts, we know that the Ancients created nacelles by manipulating elemental planes and keeping peace between them. Most likely the same is with planets - most likely, this is just an educated conclusion, which might not necessarily be true. And we also know that the Creators created the Kreegan and they are at war with the Ancients. That's canon. We don't know where either of them are, what are their major capabilities. The Ancients are described as being a supercivilization, but even then we don't know what that actually means. It obviously includes technology. It most likely includes magic. Once again, an educated conclusion, that might not be true, but something that most people would agree with seeing as there are many magic users on every world seeded by the Ancients. Anything else is speculation at best. Not once were planes of "reality" or "anti-reality" mentioned - it was your idea, made without any basis in canonical facts, therefore it's fan fiction.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The Anti-Reality has an affinity with magma, which is why demons like volcanos so much! This is because magma represents the fusion of all six elements (air, water, earth, fire, light, darkness). As the Ancients rule over the Space which seperates elements the Creators rule over 'Pure' Magma, pure undifferentiated substance that negates form, seperation and differentiation, why their realm is described as nebulous.
And this is fan-fiction based on fan-fiction, that contradicts the canon, even. We have Magma elementals in HoMM3, and they are related to Earth elementals.

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Unread postby XEL II » 28 Jul 2012, 19:45

Just one minor thing, the Ancients don't generally create Nacelles by manipulating the Planes. We know that four Terran VARNs (a.k.a. the Isles of Terra) were made with the involvement of Elemental Planes. And probably the Ancients were behin the Elementals creating the Land of Cron (not the whole worldship). Technology of Elemental Manipulation includes, but is not limited to using the Elemental Planes. For instance, energy of the stars was also used (to create civilizations in the Great Experiment).
GreatEmerald wrote:And we also know that the Creators created the Kreegan
Actually, no. Never in canon is it stated that the Creators created the Kreegan. Sure, it is possible, given Creators' nature as the arch-nemesis of the Ancients, but such things was never confirmed, nor any link was established in the narrative between the Creators and Kreegans. Between Melian, Corak and Escaton, I'm sure at least one of them would have mentioned that the Kreegan are, in fact, the work of the Ancients' greatest enemy. Then again, in fan-fiction, of handled properly, I think there would be nothing wrong in making Kreegans the spawn of Creators.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 28 Jul 2012, 20:45

Well, that advances my point even further, we don't even have that much as hard canon, so anything built even on these statements is stepping into speculation territory.

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Unread postby XEL II » 28 Jul 2012, 22:04

GreatEmerald wrote:Well, that advances my point even further, we don't even have that much as hard canon, so anything built even on these statements is stepping into speculation territory.
You're kinda right, I guess. There is definitive canon regarding the Ancients and their experiments, seedships, etc., as well as the Kreegan, but the thing is, Slayer's theories go way too far, making conclusions not even supported by canon. Anyway, that actually is your point, from what I can tell.

Anyhow, me (and I'm sure Avonu and Great Emerald, too) mean no offence to you personally.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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