Map of World of Enroth (or C.O.L.O.N.Y.)

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Postby verriker » Dec 20 2012, 22:46

Ribannah wrote:It is the Ancients' name for the planet.
The inhabitants had no need to name their planet.
But Morglin Ironfist had, since he arrived from another world. After establishing his rule over Enroth, he named the planet thus.

Ribannah wrote:Melian is addressing inhabitants and is therefore using the name that they know.

Ribannah wrote:COLONY

Ribannah wrote:Karigor (north of Jadame)

sorry to butt in, but isn't all the above a Might and Magic Tribute lore and not actual canon? And it is canon from Christian Vanover that Erathia is southern hemisphere? no offense but I'll take facts from a NWC developer's story over any fan project's story.
Please maybe be careful when discussing to distinguish facts from fanfics here for lurking readers, otherwise it just makes this tricky subject of maps more confusing than ever.

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Postby Ribannah » Dec 20 2012, 23:03

Those are two different, unrelated issues. Christian said nothing about the name of the planet. Antagarich is not in MMTribute.


Might and Magic Tribute is not 'any fan project'. We had Tim Lang on board, who checked the MMT story and topography for inconsistencies with NWC and found none.

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Postby jeff » Dec 20 2012, 23:19

Hi Ribannah, glad to see you active again. Off topic perhaps, but what is the status of MMT.
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Postby Ribannah » Dec 20 2012, 23:34

Hi Jeff,

MMTribute is currently standing still and not hiring.

Ever since 2006 we've had disappointments with new team members who insisted on redoing everything from scratch, instead of adding to what was already there. They rarely finished anything, and were a huge energy drain.

I am now making new plans, which include a more professional approach.

Regards,

- Rib -

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Postby jeff » Dec 21 2012, 0:18

Disappointing news, but it's good to see you back and best wishes in your future endeavors.
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Postby Tress » Dec 21 2012, 9:35

We know that Enroth was settled first, so it can't be a colony of another realm on the planet.


Well you misunderstood me. I pretty much agree that description on those armors might relate towards colony as in "ancient planetary colony" not some enroth's colony. But that doesn't make it named "colony" or some anagram which is never used ingame (at least not directly). Considering vast size of gate network there would be thousands of colonies. Why one with Enroth would be ""the Colony" is not really that clear.

The mass of a planet has very little influence on its period.


For Sun against Earth perhaps, still ther's plenty factors. (Which I am sure were not taken into account when NWC draw intro movie of mm6 , or decided year's lenght of enroths year) Anyway I will rather refrain from further derailing thread with scientific matter :)


Now, about Karigor.


Well yes and no in my opinion. Basically mm games extremely distort scale. For example Regna which is relatively normal sized island. We can cross it in couple real time minutes which amount maybe some hour in game time, and it contains 10 buildings tops, while it is presumed to be empire. Now we must ask question - how large is Enroth compared to real world counterparts. lets say how many miles are from new sorpigal to paradise valley? Is it size of Europe? England? Smaller?. Well out of that we can maybe extrapolate Karrigors size. Can all stuff Karrigor mentioned can fit on "small island"? Well speaking mm ingame terms I agree and certainly doubt that as Evermorn islands rather had two temples and that was all there was.
Now think on other side and presume that for planet not to be size of one that small prince lived on, Landmasses is thousands of KM wide and islands like crete during ancient times had empire on it (along with labyrinth and minotaurs.) For mm scale they could as well portray Crete as one or two dungeon and 10 buildings (roughly size of Regna ). Realistically there was emipre there. Of course taking game terms and making scale real we can look at early elder scrolls, where size of world was actually comparable to England on size (but I doubt anyone ever used that space). On further games where world is more detailed (lets say TES3 ) they used not whole dark elf empire but just part of it(namely one island), but on that island you could fit capital, any number of temples, numerous town.
So my opinion - can all stuff fit in one island? If included as one of islands on par those in bootleg bay, of course not. If they make additional game where they scale it appropriately, there is absolutely nothing that would prevent it.

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Postby Ribannah » Dec 21 2012, 13:32

Fortunately, when you design a new game, you can add new stuff. As long as it doesn't contradict what's in the other MM games, we are allright.

The solution is simple. We need at least one more subcontinent anyway between Enroth and Antagarich to be consistent with MM lore.

Therefore, we keep:

1. Karigor Isle, southeast of the bootleg (but still north of the equator, while Jadame gets moved to the southern hemisphere)

and introduce:

2. Karigor mainland, behind it. Which makes it the missing subcontinent, connected to Jadame which is the first one.

Now things fall into place.

There is plenty of room for Kalimar, the library, centuries of war and rock quarries on a subcontinent. The island can have some Mogreds, a cotton farm, and be the origin of the Sun and Moon churches (farmer v hunter?) with two small chapels.

This fits all the quotes.

Furthermore, a safe 8-week route eastward to Erathia suddenly makes sense: it lies north, rounding the tip of Karigor mainland, rather than into empty ocean where no supplies can be gotten.

Why this world was called C.O.L.O.N.Y. by the ancients becomes clear in MMTribute. As for astronomy, feel free to do the math.

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Postby verriker » Dec 21 2012, 14:46

Ribannah wrote:Might and Magic Tribute is not 'any fan project'. We had Tim Lang on board, who checked the MMT story and topography for inconsistencies with NWC and found none.

ok cool, but do you think we are all to take on MMTribute lore as fact then on the same level as the mothership games? Did Tim Lang say 100% it counts as canon? I mean it's a tall order, the Might and Magic 10 project says it has Tim Lang and even more NWC people too, and Legend of the Ancients was actually made by Marzhin from Ubisoft, does that mean they are canon too?

lol now I think about it, it almost is just any old fan project because lots of the fan projects have involvement from developers..

And with none of these fangames even close to being finished let alone official. sorry but I still think they all have to count as a fan fiction, unless Tim Lang really said anything is a definitive canon story, I don't think you can have a big free-for-all like that..

Ribannah wrote:The solution is simple. We need at least one more subcontinent anyway between Enroth and Antagarich to be consistent with MM lore

where does it say it is Karrigor though? why invent another Karrigor? You already have the isalnds in Christian's campaign between Enroth and Antagarich, and you could have a whole mess of other islands we just didn't see or hear about?

I really think Karrigor is just one Karrigor when they talk about it in Might and Magic, they don't make a distinction. trees makes sense when he talks about relative scale, just look at the Regnan empire. and there is a totally huge temple on little Hermit's Isle. there is no problem to have all that stuff in Karrigor, unless there are two Karrigors mentioned in the games.

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Postby Ribannah » Dec 21 2012, 21:21

MMX is aiming to be consistent with both NWC an MMTribute. One of their staff was on our team for a while, using a different handle.

Legend of the Ancients is just a fanmade campaign, it has no status other than that despite its maker.

Since UbiSoft owns the brand only they can create new 'canon', but as they abandoned the solar system of NWC, we pretty much have a free hand as long as no inconsistencies are created.

I.e., we are free to say that a Karigor mainlaind exists where we say it is, and to give the planet an Ancient name.

You don't have to like our choices. It is funny though that you protest against a double use of the name Karigor, while you insist on a double use of the name Enroth.

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Postby Avonu » Dec 21 2012, 21:56

Ribannah wrote:Legend of the Ancients is just a fanmade campaign, it has no status other than that despite its maker.

It has Ubisoft Seal of Approval.
But yes, it story is no canon... as MMT, MMX and/or others mods/fan projects.

Ribannah wrote:Since UbiSoft owns the brand only they can create new 'canon', but as they abandoned the solar system of NWC, we pretty much have a free hand as long as no inconsistencies are created.

They abandoned it but lately they are going back to it... sort of it, maye not directly yet but there is no longer issue, that NWC universe never existedand there is only Ashan.
Ubisoft is focusing currently on Ashan but they no longer insist, that there is nothing else beyond it and the Ancients could be back.

Ribannah wrote:I.e., we are free to say that a Karigor mainlaind exists where we say it is, and to give the planet an Ancient name.

In fan project - yes. But you can speak about it only in MMT lore terms, not in facts from MM games themselves. And these facts clearly say, where Karigor is palced and what was the planet name.

Ribannah wrote:You don't have to like our choices. It is funny though that you protest against a double use of the name Karigor, while you insist on a double use of the name Enroth.

Triple - a kingdom, a continent and a planet name. But there is one difference. These names and location of Karigor were established in MM games, when MMT Karigor and Colony name (same as Axeoth MMX full name) were never seen in any MM game or any outside information behind them.

Ribannah wrote:Might and Magic Tribute is not 'any fan project'. We had Tim Lang on board, who checked the MMT story and topography for inconsistencies with NWC and found none.

You know, that there were only a few people in NWC who really knew what was going on in HoMM/MM games and knew games lore? And judging by mistakes done in MM9, like for example letter below, MM9 team didn't really know all about previous games. It is understandable as only few fans of games know enough about them to put all game stories pieces together and create logical timeline and NWC task was creating games, not keep an eye for details in lore.

Letter for Roland wrote:My son Nicolai

Things have begun to look very bad around here. I've heard that Armageddon's Blade has been forged. I will be traveling soon to Antagarich to try and stop the madness.

While I'm gone, you will be in charge. I suspect you are old enough now. If anything should happen to me, you will become King.

Be mindful of your duties son, and stay vigilant of the Kreegan. They are still out there, and who knows when their number will surge. If that happens, they will attack again.

As always, you have my love.

Your father,
Roland Ironfist

Anyoe who played MM7 and AB should noted, what wrong is with this letter.

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Postby Ribannah » Dec 21 2012, 23:03

Nothing is wrong with that letter.

Avonu wrote:
Ribannah wrote:I.e., we are free to say that a Karigor mainlaind exists where we say it is, and to give the planet an Ancient name.

In fan project - yes. But you can speak about it only in MMT lore terms.

There seems to be an insistent misunderstanding here which I find rather odd.

I'll say it once more: I am not claiming that MMT lore has the same status as NWC/Ubisoft lore. Only that it is consistent with it. That is important, because otherwise we would not be allowed to use the brand name.

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Postby XEL II » Dec 21 2012, 23:25

Ribannah wrote:Nothing is wrong with that letter.

With this I agree. The AB backstory does mention that Roland visited Enroth at some point between his release from captivity in MM7 and his appearance in AB's campaign.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » Dec 21 2012, 23:58

XEL II wrote:The AB backstory does mention that Roland visited Enroth at some point between his release from captivity in MM7 and his appearance in AB's campaign.

Where did AB mention it?

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Postby Asomath » Dec 22 2012, 1:54

Jumping in here-

The conformity of MMT's lore with official lore is not an issue for discussion in the terms of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to create a canon-based map of the world of Enroth. That means placing as best we can the continents, seas, and islands that exist (as far as we know.) Projects like MMT can take theories as far as they like from there; however, for this thread, keep placement and discussion to canon map placement.

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Postby Ribannah » Dec 22 2012, 2:12

A history thread can be found on these forums here.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jan 2 2013, 20:56

ywhtptgtfo wrote:That 21 day travel time is very likely due to factors other than distance (i.e. safety issues from Sea Monsters). A somewhat more reliable indicator is land travel time. However, even that should be taken with a grain of salt.

MM7's world is smaller largely because of practical issues (i.e. the world has to be small and the number of cities limited so that the game can be released with the given time and budget). If we look at the context of Heroes 3, having the Erathian capital being 5 days away from the Tatalian capital is just absurd when it'd take around 5 days for a hero with expert pathfinding and expert logistic just to cross the Tatalian-Erathian border.


Not really. You have not factored on-map portals in the equation. In a world with such things, one cannot reliably estimate actually distance from time taken to travel.
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Postby XEL II » Feb 4 2013, 21:46

Avonu wrote:
XEL II wrote:The AB backstory does mention that Roland visited Enroth at some point between his release from captivity in MM7 and his appearance in AB's campaign.

Where did AB mention it?

In Roland's full bio on the game's site, and it's referenced again in Catherine's Charge ("in the long months since your [Catherine's] return from Enroth").
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Map of the World of Enroth

Postby Katarn » Aug 6 2014, 1:38

Greetings and Salutations everyone!

I've been following this thread for quite some time with much interest. It's great to know there're still people around who're into the hardcore lore scavenging of the universe abandoned for a decade :). Apparently, the work on the complete map has been ceased or at least I couldn't find any finished version of Asomath's creation. So, after some forethought, I've decided to add my voice to the discussion and upload my proposition of the complete map of Enroth.

I probably should lighten up a bit some of my cartographic decisions ;):
- Those three unknown islands in the east, as mentioned above, come from M&MVI intro. I've noticed, after some staring, another small isle above those mapped earlier, mostly hidden behind clouds.
- Islands from "Foolhardy Waywardness" are placed in the most likely location, but it's exact situation is a lucky guess...
- ... just like the northern, western and eastern shores of Jadame, complete Russian Roulette.
- Karigor's shape and Kalimar's location on it - as above.
- Exact sizes and locations of continents... well, look at the points above.
- What's more: there should be a lot of small islands and even subcontinents somewhere on the Endless ocean, but as they were given only a passing mention I didn't want to add them blindly.
- Enroth's western and northern shores are a result of my prolonged stare at the M&MVI intro.
- Alvar's not labeled as a capital because dark elves seem to operate without any strict government, maybe with the exception of Alvar Merchant Guild.
- I've decided to place the map in 1172, just before the arrival of Escaton, so Jadame is still unscathed and Eofol hasn't collapsed yet (I assumed M&MVIII didn't actually start on 01.01.1172, but closer to the date mentioned in the manual. Also, "the cartographer" could finish the map without knowing of the Convocation of the Cataclysm and all the other planet-shattering stuff ;)). To be more exact, Sweet Water could probably be labeled as "Ruins of Sweet Water", though.

Well... that's all, I guess. The map still needs some polish, it's kind of a beta version. Yet I hope it might be of some use. So, here we go:

EDIT: New, revised map posted on the next page
Last edited by Katarn on Aug 15 2014, 3:21, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Kalah » Aug 6 2014, 10:56

Nice! That's a POTD candidate if ever I saw one. :)
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Re: Map of the World of Enroth

Postby Avonu » Aug 6 2014, 12:07

Katarn wrote:- Islands from "Foolhardy Waywardness" are placed in the most likely location, but it's a lucky guess...


Might and Magic 6 wrote:"Mist was originally intended to be a customs and trading port for dealings with the Eastern islands and countries. Piracy has severely cut into that trade, so we're not as prosperous as we should be."

"About 200 miles to the east of us [Misty Islands on Enroth] lie the Regnan Islands. They are inhabited with pirates ruled by an 'emperor' who 'taxes' passing ships that pass near their territory. The Regnans produce almost nothing on their own, with the exception of weapons and mercenaries."

"The islands east of Enroth are all part of the 'Kingdom' of Regna. They were settled by the most nasty and violent of people hundreds of years ago, and they haven't changed their ways. They are pirates and mercenaries to a man, and have no regard for the sorrow they cause by siding with petty tyrants and usurpers like Archibald was."

"Erathia is out of even Town Portal's long range. That continent is a full six week's worth of sea travel away. There are a lot of islands and sub-continents between here and there, all of them filled with petty kingdoms and tribes looking to rob travelers of their valuables, their freedom, or their lives."


From these texts I suspect there are plenty of islands between Enroth and Antagarich, one of those we visited during sir CHristian AB campaign.


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