MM8 Bug thread. (renamed)

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UndeadHalfOrc
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MM8 Bug thread. (renamed)

Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 30 May 2011, 02:04

Found out why MM8 elemental ranged attacks are so wimpy.

After numerous tests involving basic pirates shooting elemental missiles of fixed 50 damage (of water, fire, and air variety), and a lv99 hero that can cast many spells and alternate her resistance and armor class at will, I have found this out:

Contrary to MM6 and MM7, elemental ranged attacks (NOT spells) ARE affected by your armor class!

So not only are they vastly reduced by your elemental resistance, but they have a very high chance to miss as well.

This hugely affects:
- Priests of the sun
- Necromancers (though their fireball spells DO hurt)
- Pirate mages
- Bone dragons
- Willow Wisps
- Ether knights!

*goes back to edit his monsters.txt file to increase those attack's damage even more
Last edited by UndeadHalfOrc on 10 Jul 2011, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 30 May 2011, 02:46

Further observations:

- There are two types of physical arrow attacks: normal, and flaming.

- The flaming arrow is still a physical attack: it's unaffected by the fire resistance, but is reduced by the Plate Mastery / Chain grandmastery

- the normal type arrow can be evaded with Armor class, but the flaming type always hits!

- The shield spell doesn't work at all. It never halves damage of enemy arrows.
Last edited by UndeadHalfOrc on 18 Jun 2011, 19:32, edited 3 times in total.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 30 May 2011, 03:38

Tested the chain and plate armor against pirates shooting 50 damage fire/air/water projectiles, and physical arrows. (at GM level)

Ok, at least those work right. They cut the damage of arrows (both kinds) but not the elemental projectiles, whew.

Maybe the AC allowing evasion of elemental projectiles wasn't a bug and was intended.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 30 May 2011, 21:33

BTW, I have now made ALL of these tests on both Grayface's patch and the original 2000 version from NWC.

Identical results.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 01 Jun 2011, 10:48

Another bug found: weapons "of poison, of acid, of venom" deal Water damage instead of Body damage.
Last edited by UndeadHalfOrc on 18 Jun 2011, 18:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 18 Jun 2011, 10:27

Of course they're affected by your AC. They're ranged attack after all, not ranged spell.

Your AC determines whether their attacks hit you or not. However, the amount of damage done when their attacks hit, is determined by your elemental resistance.

Ranged spells always hit, but their damage can be reduced by your elemental resistance.

Physical resistance (from Plate/Chain) cut damages from physical attack, not all attack. ID Monster would help here. Elemental, spirit, self, dark and light attack are not resistible by AC and/or Plate/Chain skills.

Flaming arrow (like the one used by Centaur) is only animation. The attack still count as physical damage.

The Shield effect (either from spell or skill) works only for any attack which actually has missile. If the attack doesn't have missile like Undead Dragon breath, then it's not resistible by Shield effect even though it's still a ranged attack.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 18 Jun 2011, 14:48

BoardGuest808888 wrote:Of course they're affected by your AC. They're ranged attack after all, not ranged spell.
In MM6, ranged elemental attacks always hit, no matter what.
BoardGuest808888 wrote:Flaming arrow (like the one used by Centaur) is only animation. The attack still count as physical damage.
Yes, but as I said, AC doesn't help evade it; it always hits.
BoardGuest808888 wrote:The Shield effect (either from spell or skill) works only for any attack which actually has missile. If the attack doesn't have missile like Undead Dragon breath, then it's not resistible by Shield effect even though it's still a ranged attack.
I know that. I tested it on ARROWS, as in, fired by bows. (centaurs, etc)

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Unread postby BMJedi » 18 Jun 2011, 18:20

Thanks very much for this research, UHO!

I've quit wasting my time casting the Shield spell in my MM8 game, and you've explained why the centaurs in Ravenshore were so devastating to my low-level party. The player is basically defenseless against the fire arrows, as neither Shield nor Fire Resistance nor AC mitigates the damage.

And now I understand why the necromancers in the Necromancer's Guild were such pushovers! I was expecting an epic fight against Shrapnel and Dragon Breath and Pain Reflection, which had been such an issue for me in MM7, even with a high level party; instead, in MM8, I got old men in robes who couldn't scratch us and went down in one or two hits.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke, "Clarke's Third Law".

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 18 Jun 2011, 18:26

BMJedi wrote: And now I understand why the necromancers in the Necromancer's Guild were such pushovers! I was expecting an epic fight against Shrapnel and Dragon Breath and Pain Reflection, which had been such an issue for me in MM7, even with a high level party; instead, in MM8, I got old men in robes who couldn't scratch us and went down in one or two hits.
Even so, they were still quite a bit tougher than their enemies the Priests of the Sun. Now THOSE guys are wussies. They were the monsters that received the most buffs in my monsters.txt file (alongside pirate mages)

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 18 Jun 2011, 19:23

Another discovery.

Just tested GM shield extensively.

It does NOT mimic the shield spell (which does nothing at all)

GM Shield reduced damage done by normal arrows (NOT fire arrows!) by half.
This is cumulative with GM Plate and GM chain, which also reduces damage by arrows (but fire arrows too.)

But GM Shield also reduces fire, water, etc. elemental projectile damage by half, which makes it ridiculously overpowered, and I have to ban my Knights from ever learning it! (Not that they ever did...)
(The Shield spell doesn't do this, either)

Did they ever bother testing this game? :disagree:


ALSO:

Luck doesn't increase magic resistance at all in MM8 (it did in MM6. Haven't tested MM7) As far as I can see the stat is 99.99% useless. I sent an email to Grayface; although I'm not sure I want him to fix it since it will make the game THAT much easier.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 10 Jul 2011, 05:00

UndeadHalfOrc wrote: In MM6, ranged elemental attacks always hit, no matter what.

Yes, but as I said, AC doesn't help evade it; it always hits.
Yeah, that be what make it different from M&M 6.

For Centaurs, it seems they used same rule as Fire Bolt spell.

I found Luck good only for playing Arcomage :-D :-D

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 10 Jul 2011, 12:33

BoardGuest808888 wrote:
UndeadHalfOrc wrote: In MM6, ranged elemental attacks always hit, no matter what.

Yes, but as I said, AC doesn't help evade it; it always hits.
Yeah, that be what make it different from M&M 6.

For Centaurs, it seems they used same rule as Fire Bolt spell.

I found Luck good only for playing Arcomage :-D :-D
no, fire arrows are physical damage. Their damage gets halved by Plate armor GM, but not by fire resistance.

About Luck: Grayface found out it DOES work, as long as the resistances are > 0 (like it was the case in my tests)

A resistance value as little as 1 will make luck work.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 10 Jul 2011, 18:29

Found out why Air Elementals were substantially easier than the other types: Greater Air Elementals never cast Implosion.

Very easy to fix, just open up Monsters.txt and give them a higher leveled Lightning Bolt (GM 12 seems to work just fine).

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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 10 Jul 2011, 19:45

UndeadHalfOrc wrote: Luck doesn't increase magic resistance at all in MM8 (it did in MM6. Haven't tested MM7) As far as I can see the stat is 99.99% useless. I sent an email to Grayface; although I'm not sure I want him to fix it since it will make the game THAT much easier.
luck helps take less damage from traps (when your party got killed by a chest or stay life). more lucky character will result less damage to whole party. in mm7 it affected upon thievery.
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Unread postby Xfing » 10 Jul 2011, 22:52

A serious bug, the absence of which would give the game a nice leap in difficulty: hitscan spells wielded by monsters do not work. Examples are: Implosion on Greater Air Elementals, Mass Distortion on Greater Earth Elementals and Paralyze on Plane/Chaos Behemoth Ripoffs. These spells don't do jack shit, if this got fixed the game would probably start being hard.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 11 Jul 2011, 03:18

Xfing wrote:A serious bug, the absence of which would give the game a nice leap in difficulty: hitscan spells wielded by monsters do not work. Examples are: Implosion on Greater Air Elementals, Mass Distortion on Greater Earth Elementals and Paralyze on Plane/Chaos Behemoth Ripoffs. These spells don't do jack ****, if this got fixed the game would probably start being hard.
Yes, this has been my observation as well.

Greater Earth Elementals act very shy because of this. They get close to me but not too close, they fidget around but don't attack, etc.

After I removed their unused Mass Distortion spell, they actually became aggressive and started FIGHTING! Imagine that!
Gonna do some more tests with those behemoths types (both of them).

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Unread postby Xfing » 11 Jul 2011, 20:57

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:
Xfing wrote:A serious bug, the absence of which would give the game a nice leap in difficulty: hitscan spells wielded by monsters do not work. Examples are: Implosion on Greater Air Elementals, Mass Distortion on Greater Earth Elementals and Paralyze on Plane/Chaos Behemoth Ripoffs. These spells don't do jack ****, if this got fixed the game would probably start being hard.
Yes, this has been my observation as well.

Greater Earth Elementals act very shy because of this. They get close to me but not too close, they fidget around but don't attack, etc.

After I removed their unused Mass Distortion spell, they actually became aggressive and started FIGHTING! Imagine that!
Gonna do some more tests with those behemoths types (both of them).
I had been reporting bugs to Grayface for quite some time via mail and reported this too, but apparently he had more pressing bugs to correct first. Speaking of which - I wonder if the Telepathy bug has already been dealt with in one way or another. You know, the one where you cast Telepathy on a Dragon for example, and then he doesn't drop the item the spell claimed he had, only gold.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 11 Jul 2011, 21:17

Here is the fix to 1.4 patch that Grayface sent to me. Fixes the axe/sword/bow recovery bug.

It's a standalone dll that is installed on top of his 1.4 patch.

http://pages.infinit.net/plague/MM8patch.dll

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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 12 Jul 2011, 04:04

Xfing wrote:A serious bug, the absence of which would give the game a nice leap in difficulty: hitscan spells wielded by monsters do not work. Examples are: Implosion on Greater Air Elementals, Mass Distortion on Greater Earth Elementals and Paralyze on Plane/Chaos Behemoth Ripoffs. These spells don't do jack ****, if this got fixed the game would probably start being hard.
implosion and mass distortion were in mm7 too but have no effect. all this "broken" spells are not subscribed to working ones - so they "theorically" working, could be placed as active spell, won't crush the game but monsters do not know what spell they could use cause these spells set as inactive ones + i'm not sure that they could be activated.
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Unread postby GrayFace » 13 Jul 2011, 03:37

vladimir-maestro wrote:luck helps take less damage from traps (when your party got killed by a chest or stay life). more lucky character will result less damage to whole party. in mm7 it affected upon thievery.
Both statements are false. When opening a chest perception skill helps avoid damage, then the usual resistances scheme works. Without resistances all players are hit the same BTW. Luck has no effect on stealing.
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