Ultimate MM7 party

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Oct 18 2011, 16:20

GreatEmerald wrote:Other classes gain spells way too late in the game and have too low SP to be useful as spellcasters.


Druid has same acquisition rate as Sorcerer (until GM, which is already late in the game) and has better Meditation at the point when the Sorceror actually starts getting more Spell Points (3rd promotion). Unless we're talking about the 5 spell point difference at level one, and even then, Druids get bonus spell points off of both Intellect and Personality.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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asterix15
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Postby asterix15 » Oct 18 2011, 17:27

My current party is KPCD :D

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 18 2011, 17:44

Bandobras Took wrote:Druid has same acquisition rate as Sorcerer (until GM, which is already late in the game) and has better Meditation at the point when the Sorceror actually starts getting more Spell Points (3rd promotion). Unless we're talking about the 5 spell point difference at level one, and even then, Druids get bonus spell points off of both Intellect and Personality.


Now how do druids stand for all of the hybrid classes? :P

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Oct 18 2011, 21:54

They don't, but that was never the question. :)
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Arret
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Postby Arret » Oct 19 2011, 1:33

Early game druids are superior, but late game, their specialties don't seem very special and they feel like dead weight at almost any time after "The Choice".

GM meditation is a waste as you don't have anything the really eats tons of mana. The extra healing and condition protection is nice except that once you get protection from magic, there isn't that much that you need to worry about.

GM learning felt like a complete waste. When I ran MMDD to try it out, I was disappointed to only be 5-10 levels of where I usually am when I finish. Compare this to the abuses MM9 did with learning :D .

GM alchemy should have felt a lot more impressive than it did, but once you are at that point you can get into shops which sell the straight black potions.

Since power cure spam will likely be most of what the cleric does late (and more than overkill for any healing you may need), the difference between a sorcerer and a druid is a minuscule amount of mana and xp versus an extra GM of light or dark (and a couple utility spells like GM town portal and Lloyd's Beacon).

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Oct 19 2011, 2:02

Arret wrote:Early game druids are superior, but late game, their specialties don't seem very special and they feel like dead weight at almost any time after "The Choice".

GM meditation is a waste as you don't have anything the really eats tons of mana. The extra healing and condition protection is nice except that once you get protection from magic, there isn't that much that you need to worry about.


One of the arguments presented in favor of the Sorceror is their superior spell points, but Druids have the better meditation skill.

GM learning felt like a complete waste. When I ran MMDD to try it out, I was disappointed to only be 5-10 levels of where I usually am when I finish. Compare this to the abuses MM9 did with learning :D .


Since Druids don't get GM Learning anyway, that isn't too bad.

GM alchemy should have felt a lot more impressive than it did, but once you are at that point you can get into shops which sell the straight black potions.


Granted that you can reload a lot to get the ones you want, it's still a pain to do so.

Since power cure spam will likely be most of what the cleric does late (and more than overkill for any healing you may need), the difference between a sorcerer and a druid is a minuscule amount of mana and xp versus an extra GM of light or dark (and a couple utility spells like GM town portal and Lloyd's Beacon).


The point, though, is that time a Sorceror spends unconscious is time they're not contributing to the party. Even more so, as they're draining other useful stuff the resident cleric could be doing.

Also, on those rare occasions when your Cleric dies, a Druid can bring them back to life; not so the Sorceror (until you get divine intervention). Better durability, better team support, and all you've really lost is Lloyd's Beacon.

You can make a case for having an extra Dark caster, but more than one Light caster is overkill IMO.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Arret
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Postby Arret » Oct 19 2011, 4:16

One of the arguments presented in favor of the Sorceror is their superior spell points, but Druids have the better meditation skill.


I agree with you there, but there really isn't a huge difference late because a druid simply shouldn't be running out of mana (and the only reason a sorcerer would is because of shrapmetal/paralyze spamming) which is my point and I already conceded Druids were superior early due to the extra spell guilds.

Since Druids don't get GM Learning anyway, that isn't too bad.


You got me. I don't think I have run a druid in years because I just couldn't get around the sorcerer skills (unless running a novelty team like MMMM). Sorcerers also have master learning.

Granted that you can reload a lot to get the ones you want, it's still a pain to do so.


True, but it's also a pain to dig up (even with Google or the original cluebook) what the actual recipe is as there is an extra level (layered) of potions from MM6. The recipes in the stores often don't work because it just lists a total, not how you get there.

The point, though, is that time a Sorceror spends unconscious is time they're not contributing to the party. Even more so, as they're draining other useful stuff the resident cleric could be doing.


This is a legitimate problem, but the druid doesn't add much in terms of survivability. Shield means you aren't dual wielding when you do decide to melee and the hp difference isn't that huge (and a ring enchant will make up the difference in AC). GM regen solves almost anything though as BECAUSE the sorcerer has such a low hp pool he comes back quickly. The only place that has any problems is the first room in the Lincoln, but with a Sorcerer you can set a beacon, TP, and come back with full buffs and full hp/mana at which point the difficultly goes way down due to the earth resistance from DoP.

Also, on those rare occasions when your Cleric dies, a Druid can bring them back to life; not so the Sorceror (until you get divine intervention). Better durability, better team support, and all you've really lost is Lloyd's Beacon.


Preservation+GM regen+GM protection from magic. Your healer should never die and will always come back (does require some hit and run in the pit). Except maybe if you are dark and they dispel, but by that point you could've killed 5-6 and TPed out. Once again the added benefit of using a sorcerer is that you can leave anytime and come back. Not having GM town portal is almost as annoying as not having Lloyd's beacon, but it's a playstyle choice.

You can make a case for having an extra Dark caster, but more than one Light caster is overkill IMO.


Who said anything about overkill being bad :D ?

Paralyze (Behemoth, Queens of the Dead, and to a lesser extent Devils) and destroy undead (Liches and Vampires). As I said earlier, I often run KPCS for triple light skills, which absolutely destroys everything once you get light.

Edit: Also GM fire aura is very useful for those weapons gathered during the rest of the game and it creates instant unlimited income, turns clubs from 1g to 1501g (as I recall)!

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Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 19 2011, 8:51

Another problem with druids is simply the sheer amount of skills they have. There are not enough skill points available for the druid to really excel in everything. Of course, you could just learn the self spell schools and not invest in them, but then you will have a Sorcerer with slower spell levelling and a bit more offensive/healing capabilities. I guess it could be a valid tactic (saves you a Paladin), although you can't say that sorcerers are obsolete.

In MM6, however, druids really shine, since there are no limits of what spells you can learn and to what level, and you get heaps of SP that you can use on starburst/meteor shower, plus the added defensive capabilities.

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Postby Istrebitel » Feb 6 2012, 20:24

I'm a long-term magic (ab)user and when i found out might parties are powerful too i was really surprised, but for my own good - it allowed me to replay the game over again with much fun, fun i never had!

Are there any good might parties for MM6? Afaik MM6 might side is really weak, bows or melee, so magic really shines there.

Cant say druids have any use in MM6, since if you like mage party, you'd prefer someone who can get light/dark magic, and druids cant get that in MM6. If you'd like a healer+fly/tp/lb support caster for a might party, maybe.. then again, light+dark magic gives much more (hour of power, day of gods, protection) to a might party...

As for MM7, never tried to (ab)use the archery's recovery time... never actually thought about it. I supposed that archers have the same 30 recovery limit that melee users have. Anyway, thats really far away to go for that power to shine (have to spend too many points in archery and gather all those swiftness/darkness bows), but might try it one day.

If "ultimate" equals "most simple playthrough" then it'd indeed be some knignt+support party, where all is just meleed, and casters are there to support with spells. However, i dont think you can compare KKCS or the like melee party damage output with SSSC dark-side.

I mean, outdoors, everything is just DEAD (you can cast meteor-like spells from outside enemy AI range! even if you dont use that, still meteor shower and starburst just destroy outdoor locations).
Close combat, everything is even more DEAD (shrapnmetal does WAY more damage than knight's attacks, you get insane damage per skill point invested in dark magic compared to knight's armsmaster skill, sure you can stunlock anything with knight party, but with SSSC you just insta-kill it).
Soul drinker is also just a one-button kill-everything. Just cast evenly spread out so enemies never get out of "recovery" animation. And most of all, you can always set LB, recall LB at temple entrance, full restore mana, LB back. Mana isnt a problem at all.

As for might party, i'm a bit of purist, so i cant afford to waste a sorcerer slot. I played KKKC party, used temples for wizard eye (actually, didnt even use it for half the game, and then i found out that temple can give you that), didnt care for flight, or loyd's beacons. Yes, probably it would be easier with extra sorcerer, but couldnt agree to lose 1/3 of my melee damage output and he would just go down too frequently (with one cleric, you can give him everything you have with +armor, resistances, health, he's there just to support anyways, cleric has more armor and health too). And flight only saves you time to travel, since monsters will come to you anyway (and die from knights). Also, it is very nice to play without flight for once... You start to discover some locations anew.

vmxa
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Postby vmxa » Feb 7 2012, 14:42

The problem with Druids in MM6 is you win the game, before they can even do their promotion quest.

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tolich
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Postby tolich » Feb 8 2012, 6:54

vmxa wrote:The problem with Druids in MM6 is you win the game, before they can even do their promotion quest.
You can win the Game before completing their promotion, but it's really your choice.
Last edited by tolich on Feb 8 2012, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.

Istrebitel
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Postby Istrebitel » Feb 8 2012, 8:15

Well yeah that too, you have to constantly watch your calendar to meet their promotion quest and missing it for some (any) reason really sets you back.

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tolich
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Postby tolich » Feb 8 2012, 12:51

Istrebitel wrote:Well yeah that too, you have to constantly watch your calendar to meet their promotion quest and missing it for some (any) reason really sets you back.
Ah, it's an old tradition since MM2 to make some things available for only one day of year. For Druid promotion in MM6, there's even 4 days.

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Postby Got-to-try » Jun 12 2015, 14:38

Anyone here still alive? i would have some question... reply if anybody's here :D

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Pitsu
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Postby Pitsu » Jun 13 2015, 9:11

It may well happen that an undead can answer you questions better than a live one.
Last edited by Pitsu on Jun 14 2015, 6:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Got-to-try » Jun 13 2015, 18:36

Hahaha, glad to see that there is atleast some undead walking around here :-D Anyone still playing this? because i do :P

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » Jun 13 2015, 19:37

Nah, I'm playing through World of XEEN right now instead :P

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Macros the Black
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Postby Macros the Black » Jun 15 2015, 14:21

Got-to-try wrote:Hahaha, glad to see that there is atleast some undead walking around here :-D Anyone still playing this? because i do :P

I play these games at least once a year :)


I was just looking at some monster charts and noticed that Angels cast Light Bolt. I was wondering if anyone knows if Liches (I mean, party member Liches) take double damage from that? How about characters with Zombie status?

Edit: and another one; Monk enemies cast Hammerhands. I'm curious if their spell is bugged as well or if it works properly?

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Re: The most powerfull end game team

Postby bronzerock » Sep 12 2015, 14:56

Kalle Klovn wrote:Hey guys,

I just finished the game with my AAAS team. Thanks to Macros for pointing out that bows have the highest damage potential possible of all weapons. As predicted it was not the most efficient team to complete the game, but it was insanely powerfull late game. I also used invisbility alot, and doing so the game was actually farly painless. Invisible sneaking around until all the key quests where complete. With a max focus on bows, it was actually pretty good at around level 40. After that it keeps up with AM when it comes to damage, but the huge advantage is that it keeps lowering recovery down to 5, when it is 6 times faster (!) than swords. In the time it took a knight in the KKSC party to take one swing at 250 damage, an archer in the AAAS party at the same level (~90) dealt 780 damage.. ranged (!) (These numbers are theoretical damage though, in practice it varies depending on the defense of the creatures of course).


After roughly level 70, the archers reached 5 recovery using bows of darkness (swift and vampiric). At around level 90 the bow skill was high enough (skill level 40) to use any bow, and still have 5 in recovery. At this point I used griffin bows with "of acid", "thunderbolts" and the artifact "ulysses" for absolute maximum damage. The sorcerer specialized in light magic, so DotG pushed stats with more than 300, giving speeds of 500+ (max). I also had three bows "of carnage" with exploding fireballs as an option. This is off the scale powerfull against almost all creatures, except for red dragons - and in the arena they are the only creatures you fight at level 100+.



Hi everyone,

I just registered to thank Macros and Kalle Klovn for the AAAS party tip. I just finished the game with an AAAS party and I can easily confirm that it is, hands down, no questions, the best offensive party possible. Period. At around levels 65-70, all you have to do is put a weight on the attack button on your keyboard and everything before you bites the dust in mere seconds. I had also tried other strongest groups like KKCS or SSSC in my previous playthroughs, believing them to have godly strength. I was wrong. They are completely outdamaged by AAAS, which, as an additional plus, is completely non-reliant on spell points. Combine it with the mod that brings in the mouse look and you have a complete new experience in Might and Magic, jumping around and killing behemoths, minotaurs and devil warriors in Quake-like high speed FPS action - and you don't even have to aim! :)

Thank you Macros and Kalle Klovn once again, for opening my eyes to a grand new experience after 15 years the game was first released! :)

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Arret
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Re: Ultimate MM7 party

Postby Arret » Sep 18 2015, 20:20

That's because of how the teams are optimized. AAAC is best light endgame but weak until master bow and average until very late. SSSC is weak early simply due to go pool plus no disarm but is best dark mid to endgame. KCS+ is designed to be strongest from start until very late when it is still near the top.


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