Ultimate MM7 party

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Kalle Klovn
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Ultimate MM7 party

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 11 2011, 22:06

I tried the following party (and went light magic) to effectively complete the game:

Knight
Knight
Cleric
Sorcerer

It cut through the game like butter. Imo, cleric and sorcerer are indispensable; you have to have fly, town portal, lloyds beacon and invisibility from the sorcerer. Healing and fix illnesses are not a must i guess, but makes the game a lot easier.

It came down to what to put in the last two slots. Cleric and sorcerer where out, as you only need them for certain spells. Generally slicing through critters seems more effectively done with melee. (differs from MM6 where magic rules). Also I decided to go light which also beefs up fighters.
Monk, thief, paladin and knight were considered. Knights came up on top in the end, based on forums and by doing the math from grayfaces' excellent page: http://sites.google.com/site/sergroj/mm ... overy-Time.

Basically Knights kick ass through GM armsmaster and Sword. Quickly more than 100 damage per hit, at a recovery of 30. With Blasters, they are of course even further ahead of the pack (not that it really matters at this point).

I read others claim monks with GM unarmed hit fast and hard, but I cant see how skillpoints into unarmed beat skillpoints into armsmaster both at GM level. I suppose unarmed is slightly better at recovery early game, but seems too low on damage. A neat trick is also to equip your knights with clubs in the first 15 levels or so. Clubs have recovery of 30, making your knights hit twice as often as unarmed. After sword skill and armmaster skill reduces recovery, they are both at 30.

The clue to finishing this game fast is using invisibility for hard to get places, combined with disarm skill equipment (ca. 20 skill points are not uncommon), or NPCs. I see many take it as given to get the 25% experience NPCs, but when i finished the game, there was only 2 levels separating the spellcasters with master learning, and the knights. Using a burglar instead of the teacher, would make a negligible effect on experience. Go invisible and finish the key quests to get the class upgrades - champion (get 5 knight, not lord, victories when you first get to harmondale), archmage and priest, and get to LotG for armsmaster GM. After this you can clean out all remaining quests. I don’t think I used offensive spells at all. Just cast haste/hour of power early on and heal when necessary. Otherwise, just run up to the monsters, say hello, and kick their ass - in real time.

Given that knights are the hardest hitting, and most beefy in terms of HP (1300 at game end) and armor (50% from physical attacks), the only things you lose out to monks and thieves are:
Stealing (never needed to)
Disarm trap (needed, but replaced with a ring and an NPC burglar)
Learning GM (useless, as putting skill points into learning does not yield more skill points, unless maybe after level 75. This is given you go GM early game, where you need the skill points even more)
Expert level magics (don’t think anyone ever uses them)

Here are some beauties with knights:
Only need 10 levels in sword, 10 in armsmaster and 10 in plate to reach full fighting potential. This makes them the best early class by far, and then ironically also best end game by just pushing armsmaster even further. Bodybuilding at 10 GM for an extra 160 HP is of course nice, and GM repair should be done with one of them. I see people stating that spear GM is a good combo with sword, but I did it as an experiment, and saw no benefit from the spear whatsoever, i.e. 55 skill points can be used elsewhere. Finally, two weapons open up for using cool artifacts and "of dragon" swords to boost that already high damage even further.

I would love for someone to argue for a more effective party

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Re: Ultimate MM7 party

Postby Macros the Black » Apr 12 2011, 4:50

Welcome to the board! :D

As for the topic, after playing a solo Ranger playthrough, I realised that the perfect party setup would be this:

*drumrolls*

Knight, Archer, Cleric, Sorcerer

or this:

Archer, Archer, Cleric, Sorcerer

depending on how important you find it to have a tank.

Bows have some advantages over melee weapons:

1) They're ranged.

2) They're faster. Their recovery time cap is 5 (0 without Grayface's patch), which is 1/6th of melee attacks. At master rank, you can shoot 2 arrows at once. In other words, each time your knight attacks my archer has shot off 12 arrows.

3) Because you are firing so fast, enemies get stuck in their recovery animation making them unable to move until they've (very very slowly) completed it. In turnbased mode, holding down the attack key will make you keep shooting arrows until the enemy has gone through his recovery animation. This way, you can shoot out hundreds of arrows without having your turn end.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as skill bonuses are concerned, the bow skill (at grandmaster level) gives you + 1 damage for each point. Since you shoot out two arrows, that means an effective increase of + 2 damage for each point invested.... The same as armsmaster.

Actually, since an archer can get + damage to his bow skill, he's better off using a bow than a blaster (same recovery time cap)! The only disadvantage of bows is that they don't actually work when an enemy manages to get into melee range.... At which point, just switch to a blaster or melee weapon.
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Re: The ultimate MM7 party

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 12 2011, 19:57

Thanks for welcoming me to the board! :-D

I like the approach. In fact, it is the same party I have as an MM6 favourite. Offence being the best defence, killing monsters before they get close makes sense. Also, in MM6 poison spray and sparks were better close range alternatives than knights without armsmaster.

However, I have a hard time seeing how you can get down to 0/5 recovery until after the game is basically over, and even then its a stretch.
Armsmaster have that nice 2x reduced recovery, in addition to the reduced recovery of the sword and 90 recovery vs 100 to start.. With Haste (obviously the same for both), you get down to 30 pretty early game.

Archer bow: 100 to start, - 25 haste, -20 swift, - 13 GM bow skill, - 12 speed>125, = 30
Skillpoints: 90 + need a swift bow for each archer (not nescessarily easy)

Vs

Knight sword: 90, -25 haste, - 2x10GM armsmaster, -8 speed >40, -7 M sword = 30
Skillpoints: 81 (with a swift sword you can reach this without armsmaster at all, and no promotions)

To reduce the archer further down to 5. You would need a ridicoulous amount of skillpoints, or impossible amounts of speed. In which case you have blasters, and all enemies are dead.
I would argue your example is purely theoretical. Two archers cant do enough damage in an actual game before monsters get close. Even if the monsters are weakened, archers will die a hell of a lot faster, and not do close to the damage of a knight, meaning the monsters have time to kill your magicians. You can try shoot and run, but as a standard tactic it seems more time consuming than just running them through.
It basically sounds like a lot harder early and mid game, and a slightly harder end game for that matter.

Oh, and btw, oozes are easy to run past.. If you're anal about it you can return later with a couple of dragon swords.

In fact, the only party that might be better than KKCS, is KKKS! However, my prediction is that the Ku Klux Klan will be carrying a dead sorcerer around for most of the game, not getting skillpoints. Also killing minotaurs, titans, and other one hit killers will be hard without preservation.

KKCS is also best irrespective of whether you multirape the red dragon in Harmondale for artifacts or not..

Eagerly awaiting your reply!

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Postby Macros the Black » Apr 13 2011, 0:03

Hmm, it seems I haven't thought this through as well as you did :).

Some quick math tells us it would take a bow skill of 33 (in addition to haste and a swift enchanted bow) to get down to 5 recovery time. That's 560 skill points.... Um, yeah. Not going to happen. I got close to 5 recovery time with my Ranger but of course, that was in solo playthrough and I got way more experience and skill points than you would normally get.

A skill of 23, however, seems reasonable, and would give you a recovery time of 15 - half that of a melee weapon, at a total cost of 275 skill points. Given that Archers don't have much skills to really advance when you've already got a sorcerer in the party anyway, it's conceivable that you might get this amount of skill points in the skill by the time you reach Nighon. You will also be able to advance to master and grandmaster bow skill then.

That gives us 4 arrows for every melee attack, and 4 damage gained for each skill point in the bow skill - versus 2 damage for armsmaster.

So yes, I guess we can conclude that in the endgame, bows defeat every other weapon, whether it's melee or blaster, but for most of the game the Knight is going to perform much better...

I didn't mention Oozes or the Dragon? If you mean multilooting to get a swift bow, I don't do that. Swift bows can be easily acquired by just enchanting every decent bow you happen to find until you're in luck. Eventually you'll find a swift Gryphon Bow, no problem. I've seen at least 4 of them in my Ranger playthrough (I'm talking spawned ones, as in I didn't enchant them). The Oozes, you can use two different strategies. Either cast Fire Aura on all your party's weapons, or ignore them. Any other way just costs way too many spell points imo.

In fact, the only party that might be better than KKCS, is KKKS! However, my prediction is that the Ku Klux Klan will be carrying a dead sorcerer around for most of the game, not getting skillpoints. Also killing minotaurs, titans, and other one hit killers will be hard without preservation.

Lol! Bonus points if you make the sorcerer a black guy.
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Postby vladimir-maestro » Apr 13 2011, 5:28

you forgetting about one perfect bow that exists only in mm7 - bow of darkness (that drain life + swift at the same time O.o). they are extreamly rare but you do not need a healing with them :D
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Re: The ultimate MM7 party

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 13 2011, 8:50

I think I agree with you on the early&mid vs late. An "of darkness" bow would be cool too, but the drain life should ideally not be nescessary. :D

To be argumentative, I think it would be very very late game before the archer overcomes the knight though (bow GM of 23 with all the other buffs would only give recovery of 20 I think?).
It would also need such a focus on bow, that defense would suffer greatly and then get an even harder time when the monsters get close before you get up the wall of arrows.

AAAC would be cool if someone tried and reported back. Obviously you would focus on getting the archer promotions asap, which would help midgame. It would suffer from getting to Master Air later in the game, and not getting to GM water at all. Maybe archers with clubs would be a nice party, that would also do ok in the beginning. Your point on the monsters needing to recover to move vs 3 (4) bows is a good one.
The cleric could cast regeneration, and of course the light spells.


I should point out that the KKCS combination above is designed to finish the game easily and quickly (in real world time as well as game time), which of course is not nescessarily the point. Imo this party would be the fastest team to get directly to the overthruster as well as clean out all other quests.

I would love to see an AAAC party at level 100 go to the arena for target practice though..

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Postby d2r » Apr 13 2011, 16:23

Hey, everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster. :p

I thought I'd just weigh in quickly here. When I first played through MM7 three or four years ago, I used the KKCS combo (after a miserable failure with KKKC - big mistake for a beginner) and went light (I'm currently replaying it with the default KTCS Light, and will do the same combo with dark afterward).

Although I agree KKCS is a great party by the endgame, even in vanilla (two haste-potioned knights can pretty much swat anything in the way), it's a huge, huge annoyance in the early game when you get blasted to shreds by every single chest in the Barrows (I don't go in for save/load, so I couldn't fish for a ring). So, I'm not sure if I'd say it's the best all-around choice - best late-game choice, certainly, but KTCS seems a bit better-rounded overall (even if the thief starts to get obsolete by the endgame). Just my two cents.
Last edited by d2r on Apr 13 2011, 22:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vladimir-maestro » Apr 13 2011, 17:08

thats why MM is RPG - many possibilities that allow to beat the game.
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Chests

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 13 2011, 19:08

I agree that chests is the KKCS' (no archer) biggest problem if not dealt with. You left out the burglar NPC though. He will carry you through until you see enough rings and other equipment to boost disarm enough for midgame. No need to save/reload. After this the sorcerer can use telekenesis to solve the problem permanently (or just take the hits).


thats why MM is RPG - many possibilities that allow to beat the game.


Yes... some better than others?

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Postby d2r » Apr 13 2011, 22:45

Well, yeah, but if you need the NPC and a lucky item drop (or tedious save/load/rest after every chest), I'm not sure if I'd call it the "ultimate" MM7 party - although IMO it's a great one from the sheer damage output. I have a lot of bad memories of saving and loading in the barrows from my KKCS run, though - those booby-traps aren't a joke!

Oh, and I meant KKCS/KTCS, not KTCA - that was a boneheaded error on my part. I've corrected it.

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Disarm

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 15 2011, 8:42

Without disarm trap the chests typically do more damage to your party than the creatures in it. However, burglar NPC is a very common one, and is almost surely to be found even on emerald isle. So is the locksmith, with +6 disarm.
I found a +8 disarm ring by chance. It seems disarm, alchemy, id item and id monster, are the most common skill boosters out there. With a +8 disarm ring and a burglar, I never had problems with chest as that almost equals Master level 7. (4 in normal skill + 8 from burglar + 8 from ring = 20). I am pretty sure that even without the ring, I would have made it through the barrows, and probably all the way until telekenisis. If you dont find a ring, get an extra locksmith in worst case. What did you have to boost your disarm when you played the party?

In general, I dont think finding one of the most common NPCs to be much of an assumption. It is pretty much a part of the game. In other threads I see people arguing for finding all kinds of artifacts and boosters to make their party the best. This party doesnt need any of that. If you happen to find, say, armsmaster boosters it just makes the party even better.

My point is that all parties will have pros and cons. For the KKCS party, the only downside I can see is the lack of disarm trap, otherwise it is imo by far the best party from the start of the game to the very end. Possibly overtaken by archers after level 80-100. As I have explained, disarm is the easiest weakness to shore up.

I am surprised no-one is advocating for monks or even magic parties in this thread..

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Re: The ultimate MM7 party

Postby Macros the Black » Apr 15 2011, 14:41

Kalle Klovn wrote:It would also need such a focus on bow, that defense would suffer greatly and then get an even harder time when the monsters get close before you get up the wall of arrows.
True. Some dungeons will be very annoying this way. For instance, Mount Nighon. When you first come in here from the tunnels, those minotaurs standing pretty much in melee range immediately are no joke. And even the minotaurs in the sideways from there are going to be trouble as you won't have enough room to back up. I had alot of trouble here with my solo Ranger playthrough as well - I had to use alot of charges on my wand of paralysis. It helped that I had my axe down to 30 recovery time as well.
AAAC would be cool if someone tried and reported back. Obviously you would focus on getting the archer promotions asap, which would help midgame. It would suffer from getting to Master Air later in the game, and not getting to GM water at all. Maybe archers with clubs would be a nice party, that would also do ok in the beginning. Your point on the monsters needing to recover to move vs 3 (4) bows is a good one.
The cleric could cast regeneration, and of course the light spells.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if having the cleric shooting/attacking in between the archers would mess up the "infinite recovery" on enemies, making it actually less useful than in say, a full archer/ranger or solo archer/ranger playthrough...
Iirc the Archer promotion quests aren't that tough. You can skip the enemies in both of them.. Just need to get enough stone-to-flesh scrolls for the first one, and enough invisibility scrolls for the second. Having a sorcerer would help there...
I am surprised no-one is advocating for monks or even magic parties in this thread..
Well, magic parties might be good in a dark side playthrough, but they're going to suck at the beginning of the game..
Monks are just completely useless. I can't think of a single reason, other than doing it for a challenge, to ever pick a Monk. Paladins can do everything a Monk can do, and better. Better damage, stun/paralyze from mace, better spellcasting, equal survivability (Monk has more hp, Paladin has plate armor). And the Paladin has repair item skill, Monk has no utility skill at all. Learning is useless.
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I guess it is settled then?

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 16 2011, 8:55

KKCS seems unchallenged as the most effective party then?

I will attempt one more playthrough with more carefully choosing the quest order, and correct sequence of skill trainings. Ill post the order here. It wont be mindblowing or anything, but the goal is to be able to finish all dungeons without needing to rest or leave in the middle of them. (I guess i should say almost..)
Loosely I will go:

Two goblins and two dwarfs to start, dwarfs being spellcasters, but starting them out with 30 might and endurance. Spellcasting will not be the focus, so SP is less important than might. Early on all will have clubs, so speed is no issue, combined with high might, they will still pack a punch
Knights will focus on sword and armsmaster, then plate, then repair, then bodybuilding, they will not wear armor until plate has no recovery penalty. They wont be the first to reach critical health anyway.

Cleric will focus on armor, body magic, merchant and then weapon. (Clubs will be the best option for them for a while)

Sorcerer will focus on light armor, then airmagic, then daggers then other.

I will complete the minimum nescessary quests to get them all to their top type, then start cleaning out the remaining quests. I expect having to use invisibilty for a few of the quests, like erathia vs avlee quests, and for transportation to Nighon and LotG
This party shines using light magic, so I will do that.

Any more tips are welcome! I will not do save/reload for equipment, but I might kill the harmondale dragon for fun.

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Postby koval321 » Apr 19 2011, 7:13

my most favourite mm7 team, dark path
Sorcerer Sorcerer Sorcerer Sorcerer
each trained only in one skill and nothing else, one from four element magic, i mean every skillpoints have put to one magic skill and spells with such power are incredible, even dont need any healing just teleport near temple sometime yeah i must play it again it was so cool!

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SSSS

Postby Kalle Klovn » Apr 27 2011, 17:11

It could work if you use invisibility pretty much until the late game. Would still be really tough run for a long time though. I suppose the damage potential from some of the spells could be pretty serious, but a knight at 100+ damage per 30 ticks at no spell cost is hard to compete with..
It is a cool concept as a challenge though.

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Postby Grognak » Apr 28 2011, 3:50

Well, the most powerful thing in MM7 is probably a dark sorcerer focussed on dark magic. Shrapnel blast is the way to go !
I remember nearly 1-hitting (LATE game^^) dragons at close range with shrapnel, healing with souldrinker or mass fighting with dragon breath.

But power and fun don't always walk the same path...

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The ultimate MM7 party - Decided

Postby Kalle Klovn » May 1 2011, 16:43

Just finished the game with my KKCS focusing on efficiency, combined with a complete sweep of all dungeons and areas.

I posted a simplified walkthrough in the post: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... 150#312150

I repeated the key points for the party discussion below:

At GM Body the regeneration spell is almost overpowered. The party would heal, staying at full health during battles with large groups of minotaurs, titans etc. In combination with prot. magic to avoid any fluke deaths, the party could fight with impunity. GM light spells only add to the carnage.
Casting enchant item on armor (like helmets) often yields "of arms" for +15 armsmaster skill. This is available early after GM water so the knights do around 100+ damage from level 30 reaching 200 at end game. Needless to say, at 30 recovery even without haste this decimates everything.

It seems like this party is quite optimal. From level 0-60 this team must imo be unbeatable. I never had to exit dungeons to heal, and only teleported out to unload treasure.

To sum up:
KKCS seems uncontroversially the best in the early game. Compared to spellcasters with low SP until late game, the Knights deal the most damage, and they also take the most hits. The best part about knights is that they reach full potential very early, and remain the best class until level 60. The only loss to disarm (thief) is skipping the chests in haunted mansion... not really a problem.
Basically, you can do a direct line of the relevant promotion quests and core quests. Using invisibility only for a very few key areas, and also to sneak through to LotG early for Armsmaster GM. Once this is done, the world is your oyster.
Interestingly, I found that light magic is not critical for this might party as previously assumed. The most important defensive spells are in body magic, not light. Hour of power is not important because the knights are down to 30 recovery quickly through the armsmaster skill. Picking up the black potions for +50 in most skills means that further ~150 boost from DotG doesnt make a big difference as the returns diminish (75=10 effect, 225=16 effect). Allthough I didnt try it, going dark, would maybe even be better. Your sorcerer and cleric can even surpass the knights in damage per second, once they are past level 50/60. Reaching skill level 40 in dark magic is not difficult. I am at those levels in light magic with a "of light magic" booster which are plentiful. Quick math on shrapmetal at skill level 40 should yield, average 1200 at point blank range.

As established, archers can become even stronger very very late game (level 60+). At this point the bow should do roughly half the damage of the knight swords, but at 5 recovery vs 30, this means 3x the damage per second. Clerics and sorcerers also out damage knights at these levels.

The point however, is that my knights at 200 damage kicked dragons easily, so any more power wouldnt make any difference. And given that the rest of the game was as easy as I think humanly possible, I say we have the winning party! :)

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Postby Kalle Klovn » May 19 2011, 18:45

The KKSC team is almost as effective when going dark as light. Still it is imo the best choice also if you are going dark.

The only difference is that when breezing through in real time, I almost never use magic, therefore dark magic is kinda useless. Why returning to refill spellpoints, when whe team simply doesn't need it? As when going light, body magic is key, using regeneration + protection from magic and then just hack and slash. The biggest difference it seemed, was that when using blasters on my mages (and sometimes knights), I used haste, but had to recast it quite often. This was a bit annoying, so I feel that gives the edge to light magic, because hour of power lasts longer. :)

That being said, it is fun to cast shrapmetal at level 45 dark magic, shredding dragons point blank with one shot... I have to agree with Grognak, 459 - 2484 damage is pretty nice.

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SSSC is the Ultimate Party imo

Postby gregz » May 19 2011, 20:55

Kalle Klovn wrote:The KKSC team is almost as effective when going dark as light. Still it is imo the best choice also if you are going dark.

...

That being said, it is fun to cast shrapmetal at level 45 dark magic, shredding dragons point blank with one shot... I have to agree with Grognak, 459 - 2484 damage is pretty nice.


Several years ago my first party was ASSC. After getting dark magic I remember the archer felt like dead weight.

I recently decided to play again, and stumbled upon these forums (I needed some pointers because it was 3 years since I last played and I'd forgotten the game). I read your thread and was intrigued so I rolled a KKSC team and followed your walkthrough up to about level 20. I reflected, and realized this was not a time-efficient team for my play style. I started over, and now have a SSSC dark team that I'm so much happier with.

It took me about 2 days to get them 4xshrap and 4xsouldrinker. It wasn't too difficult (thanks to invis, and the way bows and turn-based combat are implemented in mm7). Now I can fly down into a group of 40 hydras and clear the screen in about 4 seconds (quickcasting is great). It's soooooo much fun, and by far my preferred play style.

One thing I kept noticing with the KKSC team is that to be effective I had to maneuver into melee range (which can be a chore, especially with ranged attackers). When I got into melee range, I would usually be fighting a 'pack'. Like in Tidewater Caverns, or...well most places. While the knights did fine, my cleric would invariably be the favorite target and was too busy healing herself to help the party.

I think your party has merit mid-game when all the shield-type and shared life type spells are available, but I never got that far because I didn't have fun with the KKSC party and realized it simply wasn't optimal.

The dark SSSC party is imo the ultimate party bar-none. SSSS might seem even better(if painful early), but many chests are too close to use telekenesis, and the cleric has healed us up more times than I can count. Not to mention curing poision, cursed, stoned, protection from magic, resurrecting...and most essentially, GM merchant. SSSC ftw.


The only drawback is the very rare occassion when they run out of mana (master meditation helps this a lot). The solution is simple, find a safe corner, go watch some TV for about 10 minutes, and come back to a full mana bar (Lich regen). I could of course just brew mana potions, but I'm lazy. Actually, with town portal and lloyd's beacon, even this is completely unneccesary. Mana isn't a problem.

In most party-based RPGs rolling an all caster party is very difficult (or impossible, Re: Bard's Tale), but by gauging distance, using turn-based combat, and spamming bows it was no trouble. After all 3 sorcerers got the sparks spell, getting to dark magic was easy enough. SSSC dark is the perfect party, it tears the game to pieces.

I know everyone has a different playstyle, but 4 x bows->sparks->shrap->souldrinker seems to counter enemy AI (multiple closing mobs) the fastest.

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SSSC vs KKSC

Postby Kalle Klovn » May 24 2011, 13:51

Hi Gregz, thanks for replying and for appreciating the posts (even though, you didnt find the advice optimal). I was hoping for some good discussions vs an all spellcaster team, SSSC being the obvious best spellcasters. This (or close variations) are my favourite for MM6.

I totally agree that SSSC is a good team, benefits include two less promo quests, no need to invisibly navigate to LotG early to get GM AM, and as you say (dark is a must with this team) offensive spells mid/late game are good.

I suppose different playing styles can argue for both. Personally I didnt have any problem with the tidewater dungeon. Admitted, for the promo quests I pretty much went straight for the prize; killing critters in my way, getting what I came for, and then on to the next quest. However, when the promo and elf/human quests were done I cleaned thoroughly all other quests.

The key to the KKSC team is the offense of the knights. You only need Master 7 of sword, and after that its pumping up AM to 10 GM. This happens very fast. Also find or enchant AM +10-14 equipment (gauntlets or helmets works best). This gives 100 damage (at 30 recovery) when your typical opponents do 20-40. You practically never heal your knights, but after a number of enemy groups you will need to heal S and C. Regeneration spell will usually take care of it with a top up of heal every now and then.
Dont focus on plate or bodybuidling until after mid game. Its all about killing the enemy before they do damage to your mages.

One flaw in your argument is that you use bows in the beginning. Obv KKCS is as good (marginally better) with the bows. So that would work anyway, and if the critters come in range you chop their heads off. Swords beat sparks/poison spray - only with shrapmetal at GM dark are the knights surpassed in point blank damage.

It surprises me that you feel that the beginning of the game is easier with mages? At low spellpoints and horrible weapon skills, the beginning is traditionally where the knights are farthest ahead of the mages.
Simply getting lvl 7 M sword takes no time at all and allready you are a good swordfighter while mages cast 5 sparks at the time.
It is usually easier to go through the second time, because you remember the dungeons and quest/trainer locations.. could this be an effect?

Also, it might seem like your CS are targetted more than your knights, but this is often an illusion due to the fact that the knights have ridicoulus HP, and armorskill to avoid and halve hits. In other words there are not more hits on the SC "being deflected" off the knights, just that two dudes in your party are impervious, i.e. less healing. A few critters may be predisposed to hit some classes, races or genders, but im not sure if this is just a myth due to the effects above.

You say mana is no problem, but I tend to disagree. Blasting shrapmetal in real time eat spellpoints fast. I see you write that you use turn based, with bows (?). This is a critical point: I havent gone turn based once. This saves a ton of time, and is only needed if you optimize with spellcasting.

I am happy to send you saves of this party in different stages.

I guess, if I ran through like a madman (like I usually do), with SSSC I would have to teleport back and forth alot for SP..

While dark KKSC vs dark SSSC might be a close call. After finishing KKSC going dark and focusing on dark magic, I still didnt use it much.. Just kept slicing through with swords and the occasional shrapmetal if I hit a big cluster. Two more S was not missed..

At the same time, the perceived ease of slicing through the game with a light KKSC was awesome. The defensive spells and DotG completely shore up any issues with mages dying and gives a further damage boost to the swords, and that in a very quick few castings. It probably goes without saying that light KKSC vs light SSSC is a no brainer.

Finally, a few subjective points:
At extremely high levels, the shrapmetal is a one blast kill which is alot of fun. So if you are aiming to produce the single most powerful attack in the world this is how to do it.

At the same time, if someone has a lot of time on their hands, going archer for GM bow to create the most powerful per second range attack ever is also quite cool. This should be doable with AAAC team. Late game Cleric goes all in for light magic to make DotG (lvl 30 GM) get speed to around 350: -20 recovery, -25 from haste, -20 from swift bows, and -30 from lvl 30 bow skill = 5 recovery in real time, at an average of around 100 damage per double shot.. whoa, blasters are 27 damage average. If someone has a late save of this, that would be awesome. Otherwise I might try this next time.

I also like letting minotaurs take a few free hits, then lick the blood off my cheeks and stomp on their heads bruce lee style. This is only doable with the KKSC light team. It so happens that imo this should also be the least aggravating way to run through the game. ;)


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