How was I supposed to legitimately......

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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BMJedi
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How was I supposed to legitimately......

Unread postby BMJedi » 17 Jan 2011, 01:55

I've just began my attack on the Hive in my current MM6 runthrough. I succumbed to the Goober red herring of attacking the Control Center (only needed it for basic blaster and some blasters, it turned out), and then got totally, completely, stumped.

I had to go online and search for answers - I finally figured out by putting together info from two different websources what I was supposed to do - talk to Nicholai and get the Bell.

I remember from the first time I played MM6, when it first came out in the 1990's, that I had to buy an almost telephone-book sized guide to go with it before I was able to finish. I remember always thinking since then that the games were designed on purpose to make you buy that guide if you wanted to have any hope of actually finishing.

So, my question in this thread is, how was I supposed to figure this and several other dungeons (ahem, Castle Alamos, ahem) out on my own without consulting outside sources? Did anybody out there actually do it? And I mean absolutely NO outside info.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke, "Clarke's Third Law".

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Unread postby Spin » 17 Jan 2011, 02:10

first time i played through i did the same as you and got the 'bad' ending. One of my 6 council quests was bugged so i couldn't actually finish the game properly to the best of my knowledge.

The game is fairly logical if you read the story, i mean after you visit the council you should be okay to get the 4 crystals, they tell you where they are, apart from the fact that Alamos is hidden away, but with the cloth map i got with my special edition it would help you find it.

They don't really make RPGs this intelligent anymore, if you think MM6 was unfinishable without the guide you should check out MM1, all that you were given with the game were the words "find the inner sanctum".

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Unread postby MMXAlamar » 17 Jan 2011, 02:16

The one thing I really loved about MM6 was its mysteriousness. Having no real prior knowledge of the series (other than having played the Heroes 2 demo) when I first played MM6, I spent many, many hours playing it over the course of about 2/3 of a year.

Mystery was definitely a strong element in most MM games.

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Re: How was I supposed to legitimately......

Unread postby Avonu » 17 Jan 2011, 08:16

BMJedi wrote:So, my question in this thread is, how was I supposed to figure this and several other dungeons (ahem, Castle Alamos, ahem) out on my own without consulting outside sources? Did anybody out there actually do it? And I mean absolutely NO outside info.
Read what NPCs say? :P
You can always ask seer what to do next. ;)
And about the bell and gem - read Roland's letters in manual - they have clue about this quest.

And I agree with Spin, MM1-5 have no clue what to do next. You needed to use your brain to figure when to go, judging by monsters strength in dungeons and your inventory.

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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Jan 2011, 10:39

MM 3-5 had cluebooks released along with the manual :P But yeah, you had to use your brain a lot of time even with cluebooks.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby BMJedi » 17 Jan 2011, 14:35

Hm, I still don't really see how you would know to talk to Nicholai about freeing Archibald. The Oracle tells you that he is held in the castle library, which you would have to find by examining the back of the castle carefully and finding the stairs up, which are hard but not impossible to see. (Or you might see the doors from an aerial inspection.)

But you still wouldn't know what to do to free him. As far as talking to Nicholai, Regent Humphrey specifically asks you not to when you first meet him, and then the game punishes you if you do. (Must find the circus - difficult in itself with no idea of the schedule - only by hearing rumors by happening to talk to the right people in the right random houses would you find out just one of the months)

Then, if you thought to go back and ask Nicholai, you are only given the clue that the third key for the royal treasury is "hidden somewhere near the castle". You might or might not ever think to click on that well over to the side. I probably would have gone over and over that whole map and never thought to click the well - after all, I would have clicked on it before and nothing happened, so why would I click on it now?

Anyway, I think the game designers really, really wanted you to buy that guide, considering that they were marketing in the pre-internet age.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke, "Clarke's Third Law".

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Unread postby Avonu » 17 Jan 2011, 15:11

BMJedi wrote:But you still wouldn't know what to do to free him. As far as talking to Nicholai, Regent Humphrey specifically asks you not to when you first meet him, and then the game punishes you if you do. (Must find the circus - difficult in itself with no idea of the schedule - only by hearing rumors by happening to talk to the right people in the right random houses would you find out just one of the months)

Then, if you thought to go back and ask Nicholai, you are only given the clue that the third key for the royal treasury is "hidden somewhere near the castle". You might or might not ever think to click on that well over to the side. I probably would have gone over and over that whole map and never thought to click the well - after all, I would have clicked on it before and nothing happened, so why would I click on it now?
Avonu wrote:And about the bell and gem - read Roland's letters in manual - they have clue about this quest.
:P
Yes, this quest always was strange to me (I mean, where people find solution that posted in the net)... until I read all five letters from Roland to his wife which are in manual. Conclusion: read the manual for your own sake. :P
5th letter from Roland wrote:p.s. If I should fail to return, tell Nicolai that the Third Eye is in the Well — — he ll understand when the time is right. It is his birthright and he will need it if he is ever to be King.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 17 Jan 2011, 15:26

XEL II wrote:MM 3-5 had cluebooks released along with the manual :P But yeah, you had to use your brain a lot of time even with cluebooks.
As do both MM1 and MM2.

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Unread postby Avonu » 17 Jan 2011, 15:30

I would say that game when you have read dialogs and letters/books (like scrolls in MM6-8) and not fallow "question marks" need to use at least 1 brain cell. ;)

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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Jan 2011, 15:31

MM 1-2 cluebooks were released a little later, in 1992 with NES versions of the games. Together they formed a "guide to CRON' of sorts.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby jeff » 17 Jan 2011, 16:58

This class of game, when they first came out was trying to be a computerized form of the older paper and pencil rpgs. I remember when I bought Phansty Star 2, it came with its own player’s guide included. When I started playing the other games like phantasy star 1, (yes I bought it after) and the numerous Nintendo rpgs; I realized how important the conversations and maps in that guide were, so I made my own maps one step at a time and took copious notes; there were no guides for those. This helped but when playing Wizardry 6; the tedium of making all those maps led me to also buying the various player’s guides. All of the games from what I consider the golden age required thought, paying attention and taking notes. Unfortunately the majority of today’s gamer refuse to put in that type of investment in the gaming experience. They would rather race through cities, dungeons or whatever hacking and killing as much as possible. Thus the death of the true computer turn based rpg. Along with it has been the gradual decline in my interest in gaming in general. :rip: Man I have using the rip icon a lot lately. :(
Mala Ipsa Nova :bugsquash:

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Unread postby BMJedi » 17 Jan 2011, 17:17

@Jeff, very interesting. I still enjoy contemporary games, at least the better ones like the Bioware games, but I usually only play one time over a period of a few months. I always keep coming back to the NWC games and the Baldur's Gate series, much for the reasons you describe.

I think the change in the gaming market has something to do with the general sociological changes in attention span and thought process brought on by the invention and growth of social media like texting and Twitter. They leave no room for depth in anything, a phenomenon currently being decried by the older generation.

On a side note, I just finished MM6. I had forgotten the reward movie at the end - very cool. Even cooler, just for fun, I went back to my last save and threw away the containment spell, because I had never seen the "bad" movie. That was also very cool! I especially liked the part where the blast wave from the exploding planet crashed into the moon and made it explode, too.

Although, I would have felt awfully cheated if I had gotten that ending and the "you lose, sucker" end certificate message when I had first played the game. I probably would have started screaming at my computer screen, hurling invective!
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke, "Clarke's Third Law".

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Unread postby jeff » 17 Jan 2011, 17:47

BMJedi wrote: I always keep coming back to the NWC games and the Baldur's Gate series, much for the reasons you describe.
I enjoyed the Baldur’s Gate/Icewind Dale series, but was more of a Wizardry 6-8 and Might and Magic player. I only got interested in the Heroes series to pass time waiting for the next installment of one of those rpgs.
BMJedi wrote: I think the change in the gaming market has something to do with the general sociological changes in attention span and thought process brought on by the invention and growth of social media like texting and Twitter. They leave no room for depth in anything, a phenomenon currently being decried by the older generation.
As a high school teacher I see this in the classroom everyday. This year I am teaching only ‘advanced’ students, and it is stunning the lack of depth of understanding in anything among the majority of these students. It does not bode well for our future if these students are representative of the entire generation. While there are several sharp and motivated students; most want instant gratification and few want to do the extra work needed to achieve that next level of success. It is no wonder games like MM would have a difficult time making money today.
Mala Ipsa Nova :bugsquash:

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Unread postby MMXAlamar » 17 Jan 2011, 20:44

BMJedi wrote:Even cooler, just for fun, I went back to my last save and threw away the containment spell, because I had never seen the "bad" movie. That was also very cool! I especially liked the part where the blast wave from the exploding planet crashed into the moon and made it explode, too.

Although, I would have felt awfully cheated if I had gotten that ending and the "you lose, sucker" end certificate message when I had first played the game. I probably would have started screaming at my computer screen, hurling invective!
Lol! This happened to me the first time I finished the game. I later learned about the spell scroll you get from Archibald. It's just that, as a hero, you're so preoccupied with destroying the devils that you just want to go right in, kill the queen and bring the house down with you!

But yeah, I was pretty pissed off and had to redo the whole battle after :disagree:

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Unread postby Talin_Trollbane » 20 Jan 2011, 19:56

well, i got it right on the first go, by simply read all i could.
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