Timeline Order of Play - What do I do next?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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MMXAlamar
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Postby MMXAlamar » Jan 16 2011, 19:56

I think that we can say both Enroth, Axeoth, and Ardon are in the same sector. The connection between Enroth and Ardon is the Enroth Monestary, and the Gems of Enroth. I wish my copy of Crusaders came with a manual!

The portals that transported the people of Enroth and Necros to Axeoth would have to have used a mind blowing amount of magic to transport them across sectors, so the three planets are likely located in the same sector. The only flaw here is that if either one of the planets were near the edge of a sector, that completely changes the circumstances of traveling by magic.

Ugh, we need to make a space map! :disagree:
I'd really like to figure this out, lol.

Btw I got the name colony from the Spinward Tales, but that's the only time I've ever heard it used.
"C.O.L.O.N.Y. - Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder."
http://thespinwardtales.wikispaces.com/Colony

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 20:00

Just ignore that, it's an embarrassment to me from years ago :P
By the way XEL, have you got the English version of that map?

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Postby GreatEmerald » Jan 16 2011, 21:02

Yea, not to mention that we don't even know what kind of a propulsion technology the shuttles use. Impulse/FTL? Warp? Jumpgates? And even if we knew, we still wouldn't know the speed of it.

Could make for nice wild mass guessing, though. A runabout with Warp 5? :)

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 21:08

1.
XEL II wrote:And most likely before HoMM IV, because "the lord of death" from Half-Death appears to be Necros who resides in his own mini-plane located on the Kreegan planet he was banished to and created using the power Necros acquired.


I don't think so. Lord of Death in HIV is described as a god by story narrator and native being of that plane. Necros wasn't a god nor wasn't native to plane where he was exiled... ifhe survived journey there.

Gauldoth is forced to betray his beloved master, Kalibarr, when he learns that the lich actually serves a malicious god of death determined to destroy every living being on this new world.

I settled down behind some rocks and watched as my Master approached an inhumanly tall figure masked in a black cloak that draped behind him like a shadowy wedding train with a life of its own.

Instantly, I knew this being was a native of this Plane of Death.


Necros story end when he is casted away into vortex which he created. If any CoMM 2 wouldbe made, then he would probably return... same as Celestia. But it didn't happen, so there is no more info about them.


[s]2. Also there is another "proof" that Clash of the Dragon is after Armagddon's Blade... or rather that we can ignore CotD words about King of Erathia, Blood of the Dragon Mother and other things opposite to Mutare's camaign info:

Dragon's Blood wrote:In the distance stands the ancient Fire Gate, a Garrison too strong for you to siege. After decades of war between Nighon and AvLee,

The Kreegan were present on Antagarich not more then ONE decade. One.
If story writer was wrong about this and which blood was inside of Vial of Dragon Blood, we can assume story writer was wrong about King of Erathia.[/s]


3. Kastore and Resurectra was long enough in space, to some of them got bored of searching for Ancients. This sounds rather like years (their time spent on spaceship) then months.


GreatEmerald wrote:Yea, not to mention that we don't even know what kind of a propulsion technology the shuttles use. Impulse/FTL? Warp? Jumpgates? And even if we knew, we still wouldn't know the speed of it.

More like warp:
1. You know that "Ancients" were fans of some silly TV serial. ;)
2. CRON from MM2 needed years to reach Terra. Xeen also needed some time for reach Sheltem's planet.
Last edited by Avonu on Jan 16 2011, 21:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 21:13

The Kreegan were present on Antagarich not more then ONE decade. One.


Since when did Nighon = the Kreegans?

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 21:17

Crap - sorry, misread it from translated version where it was described as Kreegan-AvLee Garisson.
Just ignore it then.

But on the other hand, as far as I remember, there were not Nighon lands in Eeofol - they invided continent after Sandro plan - they were safe because Nighon was separeted island not connected (excluding Nighon tunnels) with continent - no need of border guards.

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 21:26

The Clash of the Dragons occurs during the initial Nighon invasion (1164, Specter of Power) if you follow the "Terray is right" explanation. Those events were mentioned in the Nether Gods stories I recall, and in Sorsha's bio for instance.

Following Queen Catherine's example, Sorsha joined the ranks of the Erathian Military, quickly proving herself as a master of swordplay. She was granted her first command shortly after the Kreegans arrived in Erathia.


The Dungeon Overlord and Kreegan armies met just south of Eeofol in what was sure to be a spectacular battle. Instead, they set up camp for two days, and according to the scout reports, the Dungeon Overlord army gradually vanished! Thousands of creatures just disappeared! After that, the Kreegan army split in two. One broke camp and headed north back toward Eeofol. The other, however, turned west. They overran the border into the Contested Lands, laying waste to everything in their path, including the Erathian Garrison forces stationed there! I did not hear an exact number of casualties, only that the Garrison was a total loss.


That's almost exactly what happens in Clash of the Dragons. In the final missions, Mutare's army gradually just ceases to use Dungeon towns and by the final mission is commanding only Inferno cities instead.

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 21:32

The Kreegan invided AvLee and Erathia right after Night of the Shooting Star (ca. 1162 AS) and were stopped by... Nighon Lords.

"After reading Xanthor's letter yesterday, I realized that there were a few things I should probably clarify. First, let me start with the Infernos. These places of summoning and breeding are only part of Erathia's recent history. You see, approximately three years ago, a race of devils known as the Kreegans mysteriously appeared in Erathia. Several astrologers claim their arrival was signaled by a star that fell from the heavens, crashing into the volcanic Eeofol range where the Kreegans are most prolific.

Shortly after their appearance, they immediately began to attack the nearby settlements. Initially, the only resistance they met were the garrisons of the Contested Lands. The Kreegans moved so quickly that the human cities of Dunwall and Marishen, along with the elven city of Bath'iere, fell before any large force could be brought against them.

Troops from Erathia teamed up with elven armies from the AvLee, and together were able to halt the advance of the Kreegans. However, not even the combined might of the two strongest armies in Erathia could secure a victory. As the generals sought a solution, one came from a most unexpected place. The Dungeon Overlords, long-time enemies of Erathia, attacked the Kreegans from their flanks, but rather than destroy the army, they subdued them. The Kreegans, apparently now under the command of the Dungeon Overlords, retreated back to the Eeofol range, where they have remained for nearly all of the last two years.

In that time, new garrisons have been created by both humans and elves alike. Reconstruction of Dunwall has begun, and the armies of Erathia and AvLee have found themselves in several insignificant skirmishes with creatures now bred or summoned within the Eeofol Infernos. More often than not, it is troops of the Dungeon Overlords who step in when the Kreegans seem to get out of hand. The event that Xanthor reported was evidence of that.

With luck, we will one day be able to rid the continent of the scourge of the Kreegans and their allies. However, one must wonder why the Dungeon Overlords, who have never been friendly toward Erathia, did not merely allow the Kreegans to run rampant across the land?

Ah, well, that is a pondering for another time."


H3 hereos bios were speak about that event, not about CotD campaign.

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 21:34

My bad, I guess it was the second Nighon attack then.

What will we do!? The Military Command already have their hands full keeping the peace throughout Erathia following the King's death, and it took the full might of the REMC to stop the Kreegans two years ago. How will they stop this attack!?


1164.

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 21:37

Rather it was from Dungeon and Devils H3 campaign. You know, the Kreegan attacked Erathia right after Night of the Shooting Star but I don't remember if there is info about how long it pass before Dungeon Overlords subdue them - probably it happened in 1163 AS.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Jan 16 2011, 21:51

Avonu wrote:More like warp:
1. You know that "Ancients" were fans of some silly TV serial. ;)
2. CRON from MM2 needed years to reach Terra. Xeen also needed some time for reach Sheltem's planet.


Indeed. But things like the web are not there. Unless it's a system of transporters... Hmm... But the transporter range is very short, so they couldn't travel "anywhere they want". They could if they used jumpgates, however.

Years? That sounds like impulse. Then again, CRON is humongous, I don't think they could manage a warp bubble around the whole thing. So a thrusters supporting impulse only would make sense.

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Postby XEL II » Jan 16 2011, 21:51

That text takes place in 1164, so two years ago equals 1162. As for CotD, there is absoultely nothing that would disprove that rumor from Playing With Fire, which is a canonical part of the story written by the developers and it clearly implies that Dragon's Blood takes place during AB events. The Demons in Mutare armies appear to be just Underworld dmeons, after all, they were represented by Inferno in CotU gameplay as well.

CRON flew from planet to planet for years just because it was supposed to do so. It was a coloniation experiment and each VARN had a civilizations which developed during the voyage, remember?

I'm sure Ancients, being a super-developed society, use some sophisticated version of FTL, but also warp and jumpgates on some occasions. Lincoln probably used FTL, but it was specifically programmed to follow Corak's escape pod, so it could have very well taken a very long time for heroes to reach Enroth on this ship and twin paradox ecplains why they didn't age, etc. So, I bet M&M I-V were chronologically earliest games in the franchise.

As for Necros, don't forget that if he is the creator of "the Plane of Death", this makes him native to it. And his appearance may have changed after he was casted away from Ardon. BTW, Necros was very tall.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » Jan 16 2011, 21:53

By the way, Dungeon Overlords didn't subdue Kreegans, they just strike an alliance with them. The event is described from Erathian perspective and Erathians didn't really know what was really going on.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 21:55

He opened vortex to somewhere. Don't forget he was only a mage hired by Celestia to study Ancient technology and after something went wrong he blamed her for his face new look. After one hundred years of dark magic study he return to have his ravenge.

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Postby XEL II » Jan 16 2011, 22:00

I think he was hired by Celestia when he already was a Necromancer (I doubt that Celestia is over 100 years old) and they were allied to study the Gate. Then half of Necros' face blew up during an experiment with the Gate and he became the enemy of Celestia.

Necros specifically says the vortex led to a Kreegan planet.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 22:02

Well I'm pretty convinced that the Clash of the Dragons was supposed to be one or the other of those invasions mentioned in the prerelease. Here are all the Nether Gods blurbs.

This one is "September 24" (four days before Gryphonheart's death) and if you'll bear with me let's assume it's after CotD map 8. Sandro had all of his underworld tunnels built by this stage:

Well, we've finally received word from one of our *official* outposts on the Eeofol/Nighon border. Apparently there *is* some truth to what the locals, and even the University Professors, have been saying. According to the report, two massive armies, one formed from the Infernos, the other from the Dungeons below Nighon, are moving toward each other. The King, it seems, has decided to hold off on sending troops to the region. If they wish to annihilate themselves they apparently can do it alone. It's a smart move, because having an Erathian army in the area might cause the Kreegans and the Dungeon Overlords to decide they'd rather kill *us* than each other.
I must admit this is not the first time these two nations have fought with each other, but if these numbers are to be trusted then this is something more than just the Dungeon Overlords attempting to put down another Kreegan rebellion.


The infighting sounds exactly like the kind of thing that would occur as a result of Mutare's death. Then a couple of days later (October 2):

I was listening in at the door of… well, I can't say, really, but let me tell you what I've heard! The Dungeon Overlord and Kreegan armies met just south of Eeofol in what was sure to be a spectacular battle. Instead, they set up camp for two days, and according to the scout reports, the Dungeon Overlord army gradually vanished! Thousands of creatures just disappeared! After that, the Kreegan army split in two. One broke camp and headed north back toward Eeofol. The other, however, turned west. They overran the border into the Contested Lands, laying waste to everything in their path, including the Erathian Garrison forces stationed there! I did not hear an exact number of casualties, only that the Garrison was a total loss.

What will we do!? The Military Command already have their hands full keeping the peace throughout Erathia following the King's death, and it took the full might of the REMC to stop the Kreegans two years ago. How will they stop this attack!?


Which is Nighon and Eeofol kissing and making up, leading directly into Dungeons and Devils. Keep in mind that Mutare didn't necessarily (lorewise) throw many of the armies of Nighon at AvLee, since she had a legion of Dragons at her disposal.

November 19 (Xanthor's Tale):

"I know how you must feel, but you have to understand that ever since the Royal Military Command took control following the King's death, they've been hoarding information regarding everything. The war is going badly. Not only have the Kreegans overrun the eastern borders, but the Dungeon Overlords have vanished. The Military claims that the Kreegans finally defeated the Dungeon Overlords, driving them all the way back to Nighon, but there wasn't actually a fight. The Dungeon Overlords just… well, vanished!"


As the Courtier stated, the eastern borders had been overrun by the Kreegan armies in map 5 of the Clash of the Dragons:

"Mutare swept over the borders of Erathia because the Knights were unprepared to meet the full onslaught of her Dragons. The Erathian battle lines were easily broken by a new addition to her army, the wingless but deadly Crystal Dragon."


Of course all that is only valid if you're using *this* explanation, otherwise it's a totally different war, just with a lot of parallels.

XEL II wrote:That text takes place in 1164, so two years ago equals 1162.


Reread, there were two invasions: one in 1162 (Night of Shooting Stars) and another directly before the Restoration of Erathia (1164), c.f. what he says - "*this attack*" - which is set up in Specter of Power.

Yeah and I totally agree that this God guy from Heroes IV is Necros even though NWC didn't say so. It's just way too convenient. "a portal to the realm of the Kreegan themselves" he says in CoMM, and lo and behold, look where Gauldoth found Kalibarr. He did survive the vortex, that's a fact we know anyway from The Sea of Mist.

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 22:20

I think it's description of D&D :D campaign.
Remember that Catherine started her journey in January 1165, so Gryphonheart died in 1164 (need some time to message of his death arrived to Enroth and to prepare her voyage to home). Also the Kreegan and Overlords were on the move to Steadwicj already when Catherine landed in Antagarich.


XEL II wrote:Necros specifically says the vortex led to a Kreegan planet.

Then he wasn't native to that plane after all.

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 22:39

But so do I. Gryphonheart died on Sep 28. 1164: early months are Specter of Power (tunnels dug), September is the end of Clash of the Dragons (Erathian border smashed to bits), Dungeons & Devils begins in November (attack on Steadwick). It all occurs very quickly but I still say the campaign slots in more comfortably in here than it would if you force it into the timeline seven or eight years later at a point where the Kreegans and Kings are supposed to be dead.

Also I'd say it's not wildly unreasonable to call Necros a native of that Plane of Death if it's his main base of operations. For one thing you yourself argued above that the storywriter knew squat about the series beyond the general events of Heroes III. Secondly Gauldoth would have no idea about his origins - I doubt you could really say anything "originated" in the Plane of Death :rolleyes: - and indeed they wouldn't matter anyway if he was at that point a native to the Plane. Lastly he's said to have "sold his soul to the dark gods" so maybe give him a little leeway here.

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Postby Avonu » Jan 16 2011, 22:49

Corlagon wrote:Secondly Gauldoth would have no idea about his origins - I doubt you could really say anything "originated" in the Plane of Death :rolleyes: - and indeed they wouldn't matter anyway if he was at that point a native to the Plane. Lastly he's said to have "sold his soul to the dark gods" so maybe give him a little leeway here.



Gauldoth wrote:Instantly, I knew this being was a native of this Plane of Death.

He senced what this being was (was sure, not like in case of that place name or Kalibarr's master) and also campaign narrator (which words we should be 100% or we can argue about everything - it's narrator not plot character whou can be wrong) said it was god. Necros never was or was close to this state.

And one more thing about CotD: At beginning Tarnum leave Adrianne - we are not sure it is the same Adrianne as in AB but I think she was intended to be the same character. And before AB, Adrianne was busy studied fire magic, first at Eeofol later in Erathia IIRC. This can be another clue that CotD takes place after AB.

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Postby Corlagon » Jan 16 2011, 22:54

Necros never was or was close to this state.


In fact he was (or at least Sendark thought so).

The Sea of Mist wrote:They will fall, he thought. Maybe not tonight or the night after, but they will fall, and if I can hand them over to Necros, I will be one step closer to godhood myself. It was godhood, of course, that would allow him to finally face Necros as an equal, and not the discarded lackey he was often treated as.


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