The Angels in the original Might and Magic universe

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Postby Corlagon » Nov 19 2010, 21:28

Croix wrote:No need to be rude; you know the inflaming power of targeting the person instead of the topic. In fact, why do so many people here do this? Even last post with Secret_Holder.


It's just passion, I suppose. We're militant fundamentalist gamers.
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Postby Zenofex » Nov 20 2010, 10:40

Croix wrote:You mean the looping? Or the erroneous/flawed information? =/ People always bring information like that with them, it doesn't necessary kill the thread.

I mean one particular person who claims quite many things backed up almost exclusively by his imagination and nothing substantial from the games (except maybe some grossly misinterpreted texts from HoMM III and IV). A few other promising topics regarding the lore already ended up as totally futile discussions where everybody tried to explain him that he's very mistaken about many things. And now we have the same situation here. So the topic is as good as dead (or at least almost). :)
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 23 2010, 17:43

Zenofex wrote:
Croix wrote:You mean the looping? Or the erroneous/flawed information? =/ People always bring information like that with them, it doesn't necessary kill the thread.

I mean one particular person who claims quite many things backed up almost exclusively by his imagination and nothing substantial from the games (except maybe some grossly misinterpreted texts from HoMM III and IV). A few other promising topics regarding the lore already ended up as totally futile discussions where everybody tried to explain him that he's very mistaken about many things. And now we have the same situation here. So the topic is as good as dead (or at least almost). :)


Stop the character assassination.

I do not claim to be stating facts here. There are no 'facts' in a fictional universe save those in the games and manuals.

This means that as long as I do not disagree with the sum total of the source material I am quite free to theorize anything about the Angels or Kreegans that I wish.
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Postby Croix » Nov 23 2010, 19:26

Salyer of Cliffracers wrote:I do not claim to be stating facts here. There are no 'facts' in a fictional universe save those in the games and manuals.

This means that as long as I do not disagree with the sum total of the source material I am quite free to theorize anything about the Angels or Kreegans that I wish.
-And we are free to ignore you. =] It's not that you can't come up with your own ideas and share them, but that they might not make the most likely theories, and they certainly aren't the only theories. On top of the difference between fact and truth; the facts of a fictional world depend on the rules and source material of that world, and the rules of that world we learn from the source material and our own world. So there are always many possibles, and lacking enough "fact" to confirm which one is right, or even which one is more likely, we need to accept all of them.
All at once.
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GreatEmerald wrote:
Croix wrote:Both I, and the hive-mind of this thread, are fairly sure that the Ancients did not create, and do not directly influence, the entity know as "the Angels".
Can you point out why you would believe that? So far I haven't seen anything that would convince me.
-Actually, I can't recall anything that specifically confirms it, but nothing that specifically confirms the opposite either. (Perfect example for you, Soc.) We know that the demons and Kreegans are very different things, the former being planar intruders, while the latter are heavily aggressive aliens. It's seems fitting that the age old enemy of the Kreegans is not the same as the age old enemy of the demons, without getting into what would be required to turn a space faring race from Terra into glowing, wingéd creatures that emerge from pearly gates.


*That bout of madness was brought on by reading some of my writings from many years ago. I had ended a fairly sedate paragraph with; "and so, there is no reason you cannot drown on air. All of it. All at once. Instantly." It still entertains me.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 24 2010, 20:49

Croix wrote:And we are free to ignore you. =] It's not that you can't come up with your own ideas and share them, but that they might not make the most likely theories, and they certainly aren't the only theories. On top of the difference between fact and truth; the facts of a fictional world depend on the rules and source material of that world, and the rules of that world we learn from the source material and our own world. So there are always many possibles, and lacking enough "fact" to confirm which one is right, or even which one is more likely, we need to accept all of them.
All at once.
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Do I am come across as intimidating? It's just that people always seem to react as if I am claiming that my theory is the ONLY theory.

However not all theories are equal. I always try to make sure that my theories are the best explanations given all the source material I am aware of (frustrated forum-members have thus far been a pretty decent source of well source material).

Croix wrote:Both I, and the hive-mind of this thread, are fairly sure that the Ancients did not create, and do not directly influence, the entity know as "the Angels". Can you point out why you would believe that? So far I haven't seen anything that would convince me.-Actually, I can't recall anything that specifically confirms it, but nothing that specifically confirms the opposite either. (Perfect example for you, Soc.) We know that the demons and Kreegans are very different things, the former being planar intruders, while the latter are heavily aggressive aliens. It's seems fitting that the age old enemy of the Kreegans is not the same as the age old enemy of the demons, without getting into what would be required to turn a space faring race from Terra into glowing, wingéd creatures that emerge from pearly gates.


We know that the Kreegans and the demons are very different things? It's not a distinction that is ever made in the game, as far as I am aware Kreegan and demon mean the same thing in the Might and Magic universe and are synonymous terms.

For instance when Gauldoth travels to the realm 'from which the demons gain their power' he ends up on a planet that has 'seen the dominion of the Kreegans'. Gauldoth is thus seemingly of the opinion that the Kreegans are BOTH extra-planer creatures and highly aggressive space-faring aliens.

And since Heroes IV is chronologically later than other games, it is reasonable to assume that if a demon/Kreegan dichotomy appears in earlier games it could be put down to the incomplete status of their knowledge of Demon/Kreeganology.

The Angels hate all Devils, they don't hate other Inferno creatures. The Kreeganness of the various creatures other than Devil has been questioned before, but there is general agreement that Devils at least are Kreegans.

The Angels appear then to hate Kreegans in specific, not 'demons' as in separate extra-planer creatures. But they are clearly extra-planer creatures themselves.

It does not make sense that the Angels as extra-planer creatures would hate Devils, which are Kreegans if the Kreegans are *just* aggressive alien beings.

However the problem only really exists if you accept the Kreegan alienvsdemon dichotomy in the first place. Which I do not.
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Postby Macros the Black » Nov 25 2010, 0:12

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:However the problem only really exists if you accept the Kreegan alienvsdemon dichotomy in the first place. Which I do not.


Might and Magic 6, first sentence:
They came from the depths of the void.

That means space.

Although I must say I like your theory. It would make it a three-way struggle between preservation/order (angels), creation/balance (ancients) and destruction/chaos (devils). I don't think it's true because we simply have never gotten any information that would even point in that direction, plus the quote I just mentioned proves that devils are just aliens, but it's a nice idea.

One more thing about the Angels... They use Portals OF Glory. That's not the same as Portals FROM Glory, or even Portals TO Glory. Hence, wherever they come from, is probably not called "Glory". And not to forget that this could simply be the name humans or other races from the world of Enroth may have given these portals, just as they call the Kreegans "Devils".
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Postby Croix » Nov 25 2010, 3:23

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Do I am come across as intimidating?
-Definitely. You keep stating your opinions again and again in response to people stating theirs, without adapting or changing your opinions to any notable degree. It feels almost like...you think you're in a battle with all the other posters; that your opinions are your weapon, the source material your shield. You make sure not to use any shield that might help the other person, and make sure your weapons are sharp. You feel that if you in any way admit you had a bad idea or view, it means losing ground or getting wounded.
-Which is perfectly natural, especially for guys, and it's passably close to having a discussion in a lot of cases. Could you keep track of when it's happening to you? That would be a good start, even if you don't want to change or anything.

-Also, when you copy multiple quotes at the same time, make sure to split them apart.

-If Angels got a 50% attack bonus (hate) to all Inferno creatures, instead of just devils, it would need to be balanced with the entire game, and would be incongruous with the other hate-hate relationship creatures. The programmers might have started with giving devils the same thing against all Castle creatures, but then an Inferno player against a Castle player would be more a "race to the finish" for their top-tier creatures, and the devils are cheaper...Even if the numbers were balanced for them to have these full-hate abilities, it would mean Castle players and Inferno players would kill each other that much faster compared to other towns, and thus would need to be balanced with all the other towns...
-Aside from those development considerations, it's possible that Angels just have less than searing hate for the rest of the Inferno creatures; not enough to give them combat bonuses, and thus not worth mentioning.

Macros the Black wrote:Although I must say I like your theory. It would make it a three-way struggle between preservation/order (angels), creation/balance (ancients) and destruction/chaos (devils). I don't think it's true because we simply have never gotten any information that would even point in that direction, plus the quote I just mentioned proves that devils are just aliens, but it's a nice idea.
-Amazingly enough, I thought we knew that Kreegans and devils are not the same. In fact, I recall Corlagon having the quotes available to prove exactly that on the MMX forums. I'll post, go find the link, then edit it in.

Edit: Apparently no quotes, but Cepheus:
First I've got to emphasise that the Kreegans aren't demons, they merely look like them. The Hive from MM6 shows that if anything, their social structure is much like bees, or perhaps the Zerg from Starcraft. But they have their own languages, are technologically adept, and are capable of speaking "Enrothian" tongues.

The Kreegans are in the game. As for what they worship, if you play Heroes III: Armageddon's Blade, especially Xeron's missions, you'll notice a few mentions of two gods - Erebus the Dark and Darqtane. Now ask yourself, are these two entities really gods or something more... advanced? (cough*MM3*cough)


Can anyone go find our undoubtable proof?! A quest, I say!

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Postby ThunderTitan » Nov 25 2010, 7:38

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Do I am come across as intimidating? It's just that people always seem to react as if I am claiming that my theory is the ONLY theory.


No, you just claim it's right... even if 60% of it is simply a hypothesis that doesn't have enough support in what we know to be a theory.
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Postby Zenofex » Nov 25 2010, 8:22

Croix wrote:Can anyone go find our undoubtable proof?! A quest, I say!

In the time since the Silence, your world has lost knowledge of the Kreegan's origin. That they resemble the devils of myth has been enough for you, and indeed, "devils" is what most call them. The truth is they came from the beyond. Before they attacked us, my masters had no knowledge of them. The Kreegans infest our worlds and spread if they can. It would seem in an endless universe that they could expand in another direction than ours. But they have not made this choice so we must defend ourselves from them.

The Kreegan first appeared roughly 1500 years ago, attacking outlying colonies and stealing their resources. It was thought at the time they simply needed certain minerals, and could be reasoned with, but this was not the case. Their life cycle forces them to breed until the world cannot support their numbers, then they send ships off to other worlds to renew the cycle.

Escaton and Melian "The Oracle" respectively. Also in the M&M games including and after M&M VI, it's clearly stated many times that the Kreegans are no demons or at least not in the religious sense. The most wide-spread theory is that they are the front line troops of the Creators, probably artificially engineered with the purpose to destroy the Ancients. But I beg you, don't tell any of this to Slayer! ;|
And by the way there are at least two other topics about the Kreegans, this one should focus on the angels (even though the chance for its survival as a sane discussion is slim).
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 28 2010, 20:28

Macros the Black wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:However the problem only really exists if you accept the Kreegan alienvsdemon dichotomy in the first place. Which I do not.


Might and Magic 6, first sentence:
They came from the depths of the void.

That means space.

Although I must say I like your theory. It would make it a three-way struggle between preservation/order (angels), creation/balance (ancients) and destruction/chaos (devils). I don't think it's true because we simply have never gotten any information that would even point in that direction, plus the quote I just mentioned proves that devils are just aliens, but it's a nice idea.

One more thing about the Angels... They use Portals OF Glory. That's not the same as Portals FROM Glory, or even Portals TO Glory. Hence, wherever they come from, is probably not called "Glory". And not to forget that this could simply be the name humans or other races from the world of Enroth may have given these portals, just as they call the Kreegans "Devils".


I am well aware that the Kreegans on Enroth came from the void. To say that proof that something is something proves that this is ALL it IS that is small-minded in the extreme.

Nobody is claiming that space is where the ORIGINALLY came from, they at the very least came from planets?

The Angels are not permanent inhabitants of Enroth. They come from somewhere else and nobody has seen any spaceships.

As far as we know they emerge from the Portals of Glory. The Portals of Glory it is reasonable to assume are called that because of where the Angels come from.

But regardless the Angels are clearly extra-planer and since they bear a cosmic grudge against Devils (which are actually Kreegans) it is reasonable to assume that the Kreegans are in some sense extra-planer in origin or at least purpose.

Croix wrote:-Definitely. You keep stating your opinions again and again in response to people stating theirs, without adapting or changing your opinions to any notable degree. It feels almost like...you think you're in a battle with all the other posters; that your opinions are your weapon, the source material your shield. You make sure not to use any shield that might help the other person, and make sure your weapons are sharp. You feel that if you in any way admit you had a bad idea or view, it means losing ground or getting wounded.


The reason that I don't change my opinions is that simply put, my opinions are not typically seriously threatened by most people's posts, which are typically either logically contradictory or small-minded but logical.

I am not in a battle with the other posters, they are in a battle with me. Since I arrived here I have typically been almost completely disagreed with by everyone. They won't budge an inch, so why should I?

Typically my opinions are based upon the sum total of all the material I have knowledge of, when that knowledge was increased my opinions have in fact changed. This confused a lot of people in the past.

Yet people tend to attempt to use particular sources they like to "prove" their small-minded conclusions, completely ignoring the fact that other sources prove there is a lot more going on than they are trying to "prove" is the case.

Escaton wrote:In the time since the Silence, your world has lost knowledge of the Kreegan's origin. That they resemble the devils of myth has been enough for you, and indeed, "devils" is what most call them. The truth is they came from the beyond. Before they attacked us, my masters had no knowledge of them. The Kreegans infest our worlds and spread if they can. It would seem in an endless universe that they could expand in another direction than ours. But they have not made this choice so we must defend ourselves from them.


1. They "resemble" the devils of myth. Why's that?

2. What is the "beyond"? Beyond what? Given Escaton is talking on an Universal Scale, then he is not probably not talking about beyond Enroth (i.e) space, because the loss of knowledge he is referring to proceeds the arrival of the Kreegans on Enroth.

3. Escaton's masters are the Ancients. The Ancients obviously do not physically live on the worlds that are their "colonies" on a permanent basis, because Enroth and Axeoth are colonies and they have no Ancients present. They "left" according to the start of Might and Magic XI video.

Melian wrote:The Kreegan first appeared roughly 1500 years ago, attacking outlying colonies and stealing their resources. It was thought at the time they simply needed certain minerals, and could be reasoned with, but this was not the case. Their life cycle forces them to breed until the world cannot support their numbers, then they send ships off to other worlds to renew the cycle.


Sending out space-ships requires a certain very high level of technology, while their inability to establish any kind of natural balance with the worlds upon which they exist means that they would have gone extinct (or established a natural balance) long before they managed to invent spaceships capable of interstellar travel.

The Kreegans are therefore clearly artificial in origin, created by high-tech beings who could have also taught the Kreegans the space traveling technology that is essential to their very survival.

Since the Ancients had no knowledge of the Kreegans before they suddenly encountered them, the Ancients cannot have created the Kreegans. And what other Space-faring races have we got to work with?

The Kreegans are obviously the fault of beings from beyond the material universe, extra-planer creatures. Since the nature of Kreegans is so inherently destructive; these beings are clearly evil.

Because the Kreegans destroy all resources, these being obviously aren't following a natural or material agenda but a supernatural one.

Xenofex wrote:Escaton and Melian "The Oracle" respectively. Also in the M&M games including and after M&M VI, it's clearly stated many times that the Kreegans are no demons or at least not in the religious sense. The most wide-spread theory is that they are the front line troops of the Creators, probably artificially engineered with the purpose to destroy the Ancients. But I beg you, don't tell any of this to Slayer! dontknow


And if these 'Creators' created the Kreegans, what exactly is the difference between them and "demons in the religious sense"?

The Creators I mean?
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Postby Zenofex » Nov 28 2010, 22:32

Damn it man, Angels, the Angels, not the Kreegans! I have all read your theories about the latter, we have all disagreed, nothing has changed. I was answering Croix's question and implicitly asking you to stop with this "Kreegans are not what you think they are" twaddle at least in this topic. The first part of your post is technically OK, i.e. topic-related, but the second is useless for the discussion. Delete it, would you kindly?
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Postby ThunderTitan » Nov 30 2010, 19:07

Zenofex wrote: Delete it, would you kindly?


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Postby Secret_Holder » Dec 4 2010, 15:04

And if these 'Creators' created the Kreegans, what exactly is the difference between them and "demons in the religious sense"?


The difference is that the Kreegans are not metaphysical beings who live in a Hell (Or dare I say "Fiery Realm" ;|)
They were bio-engineered by the Creators, or they may have nothing to do with them at all.
And no, the Kreegans aren't inherently "evil". They do what they must to sustain their species. One could liken their life cycle to that of a virus.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Dec 22 2010, 21:24

Zenofex wrote:Damn it man, Angels, the Angels, not the Kreegans! I have all read your theories about the latter, we have all disagreed, nothing has changed. I was answering Croix's question and implicitly asking you to stop with this "Kreegans are not what you think they are" twaddle at least in this topic. The first part of your post is technically OK, i.e. topic-related, but the second is useless for the discussion. Delete it, would you kindly?


The problem with what you say that given that the Angels are inherently bound up with the Kreegans in the storyline, the nature of the Kreegans is utterly relevant to the topic of the nature of the Angels.

The Angels seem to have arrived for no other purpose than to smite the Kreegans and aid the native inhabitants against them. When they cease to be desperately needed, they vanish (or are forcibly removed by the system that summoned them).

If they are simply bio-engineered artificial creations of the Creators, then why do the Ancients have a 'problem' with them taking up residence permanently. This reveals that their ultimate motives and agenda are at odds with both the Kreegans and the Ancients, that the latter unleashes them only when they are the 'lesser evil'.

But if they are extra-planer creatures then why do the hate the Kreegans so? This would only make sense if the Kreegans are also ultimately extra-planer in origin, which is hinted at by Heroes IV.

Secret_Holder wrote:The difference is that the Kreegans are not metaphysical beings who live in a Hell (Or dare I say "Fiery Realm" dontknow)
They were bio-engineered by the Creators, or they may have nothing to do with them at all.
And no, the Kreegans aren't inherently "evil". They do what they must to sustain their species. One could liken their life cycle to that of a virus.


I'm afraid that canonically the Kreegans not only live in the Fiery Realm (or at least planets that are a part of it) and depend upon it for their very strength. This is stated quite clearly in Heroes IV. They also have the ability to travel en-mass to this Fiery Realm; also stated in Heroes IV (Kalibarr nearly killed himself trying to do this).

Let's avoid the ethics of whether the Kreegans are evil or not and focus upon the above facts.

I do not dispute remember that the Kreegans are biological in their motives, only that there is more to them than 'meets the eye' as is canonically established in Heroes IV.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 22 2010, 21:26

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:But if they are extra-planer creatures then why do the hate the Kreegans so? This would only make sense if the Kreegans are also ultimately extra-planer in origin, which is hinted at by Heroes IV.


Yeah, just like if americans hate french people then french people must be from the Americas.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Dec 23 2010, 0:00

ThunderTitan wrote: Yeah, just like if americans hate french people then french people must be from the Americas.


From another country that is an enemy of America. But they are both countries in this system.

Why would all Kreegans hate the Angels if they don't come from a place that is an enemy of where the Angels come from.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 23 2010, 7:50

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:From another country that is an enemy of America. But they are both countries in this system.

Why would all Kreegans hate the Angels if they don't come from a place that is an enemy of where the Angels come from.


Because "a place that is an enemy of another place" doesn't say anything about the nature of either place... except that they're both places...

Americans hate Martians is the same thing as Americans hate the French when it comes to implying where the two factions are from, you just happen to already know where those factions come from.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Dec 24 2010, 14:10

ThunderTitan wrote: Because "a place that is an enemy of another place" doesn't say anything about the nature of either place... except that they're both places...

Americans hate Martians is the same thing as Americans hate the French when it comes to implying where the two factions are from, you just happen to already know where those factions come from.


Your right, it does not tell us anything about where they come from. Nor does it need to.

We do however know from external sources (Heroes IV) that the Kreegans are linked to another 'realm', the 'Fiery Realm'. There is more to it than the story that the Kreegans are merely hungry/ultra-fertile/both creatures.

Planets conquered by the Kreegans become part of this Fiery Realm, Gauldoth visits a planet that has fallen into Kreegan hands and it not only has Kreegans on it but also is the Fiery Realm to which he is traveling by magical means.

These points are not disputable because they are canonical even in the sense that even you must recognize (they are written texts).

Because we know that the Kreegans are dependent upon another plane of existence (the Fiery Realm). Worse all planets that fall under the dominion of the Kreegans BECOME part of the Fiery Realm.

That the Angels, which are extra-planer creatures from the 'Realm of Glory' hate the Kreegans who are at the 'very minimum' unwitting pawns of the Fiery Realm's expansion, we can conclude as a hostile relationship between the Realm of Glory and the Fiery Realm.

From the collective relationships between Frenchmen and Americans we can determine the relationship between France and America. Same with the Fiery Realm and the 'Realm of Glory' (wherever the Angels come from and go back to).
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