Secret_Holder wrote:Once again you're wrong. Their Hive clearly indicates a biological origin. But we've been over this before.
Doesn't make sense.
Angels have heads, this indicates a biological origin. What particular social structures Kreegans happen to have does not have any bearing on what their ultimate origin is natural or not.
Because we are talking here about whether they are natural or supernatural, not whether they are biological or not. Anything alive is technically 'biological'.
Croix wrote:-Kreegans draw their power from large, decidedly technological, generators. Although presumably they can use fire magic, or demon summoning, like anyone else in Enroth.
No they draw their 'power', which appears to be like their life force or essence or strength of some sort, since disrupting their connection from the Fiery Realm weakens them BIOLOGICALLY, this is why the Angel Blade works against them.
This is stated in the Heroes IV death campaign which is a canonical source.
Gauldoth travels to the Fiery Realm by destroying the Angels Blade. However the Fiery Realm he travels to is actually a planet that has fallen under the domination of the Kreegans.
But given that the Kreegans weren't originally there, the Fiery Realm cannot merely be a planet, because their existence must have proceeded their taking over said planet. But without the energy from the Fiery Realm they wouldn't have been able to do this or perhaps even survive, the Angel Blade kills or weakens Kreegans by severing their connection to said realm, the source of their "power".
This is why I say the Kreegans are supernatural in origin (this has nothing to do with whether they are biological or not), they draw upon what must be some kind of extra-planer realm for their strength.
Planets that fall under Kreegan dominion become *the* Fiery Realm, which is an extra planer reality (i.e supernatural). The Kreegans are thus engaged knowingly or not upon the project to turn the natural world into an extension of a supernatural reality, to which they are irrevocably bound.
Croix wrote:-Aside from the flaw Secret caught; may I have a clarification here? Are you talking about how Enroth was originally formed from the battles and corpses of elementals? (The part after makes sense though.)
The natural world (Enroth, Axeoth etc) is formed of elements. Those elements correspond to extra-planer realities each ruled by a race of elementals. Those realities are what we might call 'supernatural' that is beyond or above the natural world.
The Ancients we know have the ability to summon elementals from those planes onto their worlds. Thus we can deduce that they drew the very substances that they made their world from extra planer realms as well.
What are the Ancients? Well since every realm is ruled by a race of elementals, why not the 'natural' world which consists essentially of one pure 'element' (space) over which rule the Ancients as the elementals of space.
Just as it is the nature of space to limit and give boundaries to things, the nature of the Ancients is to draw upon other planes energies and shape them.
Now the Angels, they are two things. One they are fundermentally opposed to the Kreegans, which are tied to the Fiery Realm plane. And the second they come from 'Portals of Glory'. What is the definition of 'Glory'? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glory
1. Great honor, praise, or distinction accorded by common consent; renown.
2. Something conferring honor or renown.
3. A highly praiseworthy asset: Your wit is your crowning glory.
4. Adoration, praise, and thanksgiving offered in worship.
5. Majestic beauty and splendor; resplendence: The sun set in a blaze of glory.
6. The splendor and bliss of heaven; perfect happiness.
7. A height of achievement, enjoyment, or prosperity: ancient Rome in its greatest glory.
8. A halo, nimbus, or aureole. Also called gloriole.
intr.v. glo·ried, glo·ry·ing, glo·ries
To rejoice triumphantly; exult: a sports team that gloried in its hard-won victory.
The Plane of Glory then is a place where everything is better, stronger, more permanent THAN IT IS IN REALITY! This is why angels can raise the dead, because they draw on the immortal permanence of everything that exists in the Plane of Glory to preserve forms in reality against destruction.
The Fiery Realm is a featureless sea of magma where everything is permanently in chaotic flux. Everything that is opposite to the Plane of Glory.
The natural world is in the middle, definite forms exist but are prone to death, decay and erosion. Thus we can derive that the Ancients drew from both planes in shaping the real world.
They drew their ideas, their forms from the Realm of Glory, but used the chaotic substance of the Fiery Realm probably to warp the boundaries between elements to allow them to create a far wider range of materials than existed in the separate planes, which allowed them to realize in reality those very forms.
The Angels aim to perfect the universe's forms, to make them perfectly well glorious. The Kreegans creators (not the Kreegans themselves as they have a form) wish to take back the substances that were stolen from them by the Ancients and dissolve everything into the Fiery Realm.
Both objectives are however at odds with the objectives of the Ancients, but since the Kreegans have found their way into the material universe the Ancients are happy to use the Angels to destroy the Kreegans, even as they ultimately intend to banish the Angels from material reality when they have finished doing so.
All to maintain the 'Status Quo' of suffering and death that the Ancients have created. If the Angels were allowed to manifest freely, however useful that might be in fighting the Kreegans, it would raise the prospect of Heaven on Earth coming into existence and threatening this Status Quo.