The Angels in the original Might and Magic universe

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Postby Zenofex » Nov 9 2010, 12:02

XEL II wrote:Angels are far less powerful than the Ancients, so they can hardly be them.

Do we have an actual text stating exactly how powerful each single Ancient is? I don't think I have seen one.

1. could they be one of pre-existed humanoid races much like Humans (Earth?), Dwarves and other shorties (??), Elves (hailed from a world which it has been destroyed by The Creators long time ago)?

It's possible, this will partially explain their hatred towards the Kreegans.

2. If THE ANCIENTS created them to fight KREEGANS (devils, and maybe other demons but not Efreets nor Gogs... which belongs to THE FIRE LORD i think) some time before THE SILENCE. they should wield laser guns rather than a sword.

The Kreegans have access to the same high-tech stuff but yet fight with close-range weapons and "spells". Actually the swords and the armors of the angels could be quite high-tech too (like those of the Kreegans), but just appear like a medieval equipment. We have many examples of similar weapons in the M&M games.

3. Judging by their alignments since H3 onwards. Angels may be recruitible in CASTLE towns (Starting from 2nd mission of the first Erathian campaign, Long live the Queen) so they always sided with Eratian knights. However, in MM7, they don't soar over Erathia (Battlesteed?) but guarding Wizard capitol of Celeste (over Bracada), plus Wizs are known to run armies of living werebeasts (?not sure if they could be classified as such). think of Gremlins, Genies, Nagas, and Cloud Castle Giants and Titans!

The actual allignment of the angels when talking about the HoMM III/IV factions is somewhat irrelevant. Just because there were no Kreegans in large numbers before the Night of the Shooting Stars doesn't mean that the angels aren't some guards "in sleep mode" or soldiers waiting for something important to happen.
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Postby XEL II » Nov 9 2010, 13:43

We know that Ancients are super-developed society. this alone should mean something. Besides, Escaton calls them "greater masters".
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Macros the Black » Nov 9 2010, 15:49

Well in the second map of Long Live The Queen the notes mention that the Angels have been known to aid Bracada from time to time. I don't remember the exact quote but it was clear that they weren't considered a standard part of their army. That they are helping Catherine in HoMM 3 should indicate just how involved they are in defeating the Kreegans; Catherine seems to have the best chance of doing just so at that point, so they decide to tag along with her. Remember that when she lands on Antagarich she finds a battlefield between the Bracadan(?) forces and the Nighon forces, and mentions that the Bracadans seem to have been defeated there. So the war had been going well for Nighon and Eofol until her arrival, hence the Angels side with her rather than Bracada.
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Postby Corlagon » Nov 9 2010, 17:07

Zenofex wrote:Do we have an actual text stating exactly how powerful each single Ancient is? I don't think I have seen one.


There are a few texts in Warriors of Might and Magic evincing that single Ancients are individually far stronger than the most powerful Kreegans, but the Kreegans are much more numerous. The game's background story explains, and I'm paraphrasing, how the Ancient Einar "blasted Klayexraan (an incredibly powerful Kreegan) into ribbons of light and sound in the sky".

There's also an image of Einar in the game, and he doesn't look one bit like an Angel (instead, he closely resembles Vorr from Heroes Chronicles).

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Postby XEL II » Nov 9 2010, 18:28

Possibly, this was not Einar, but Alleron's older self.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 9 2010, 23:59

Macros the Black wrote:Well in the second map of Long Live The Queen the notes mention that the Angels have been known to aid Bracada from time to time. I don't remember the exact quote but it was clear that they weren't considered a standard part of their army. That they are helping Catherine in HoMM 3 should indicate just how involved they are in defeating the Kreegans; Catherine seems to have the best chance of doing just so at that point, so they decide to tag along with her. Remember that when she lands on Antagarich she finds a battlefield between the Bracadan(?) forces and the Nighon forces, and mentions that the Bracadans seem to have been defeated there. So the war had been going well for Nighon and Eofol until her arrival, hence the Angels side with her rather than Bracada.


Macros, you are referring to the Fair Feather mission, which is basically recruit a few Angels, give them to Christian and overrun the map, sort of Angel-show off how powerful we are mission. :D :D :D :D

Before Fair Feather, they were absent in the ranks of the Erathian army. But they had also appeared before but then departed. We know the following facts about them.

1. They are not permanent inhabitants of Enroth, they come and go as they please.
2. They appear through Portals of Glory, which means they are extra-planer creatures.
3. They hate Kreegans and defend Erathia against them.
4. The Kreegans also hate them equally.

I think they are creatures automatically summoned from their home planes in response to a detected Kreegan infestation on a planet.

Part of the planets automatic defense system against Kreegans, sort of like Escaton but a lot less drastic.

I think that the Plane of Glory is sort of the opposite of the Fiery Realm and that's why the Kreegans hate the Angels and vica versa.

The Angels follow their own agenda separately to the Ancients, but their opposition to the Fiery Realm makes them reliable allies that can be summoned to defeat the Kreegans by the Ancients defense system.

The Ancients by contrast are not humans but more like the Elementals of material reality, this is why they are so 'advanced', they have an intrinsic connection of the structure and fabric of the material universe, which means Science. Kind of like Fire Elementals have an intrinsic connection to Fire the Ancients have an intrinsic connection to Science.
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Postby Macros the Black » Nov 10 2010, 1:04

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Macros, you are referring to the Fair Feather mission, which is basically recruit a few Angels, give them to Christian and overrun the map, sort of Angel-show off how powerful we are mission. :D :D :D :D

Indeed I am. The map does a fair job at pointing out how overpowered the Castle faction is in HoMM 3 :D
Before Fair Feather, they were absent in the ranks of the Erathian army. But they had also appeared before but then departed.
But apparently when they appeared before, they were aiding Bracada :)
We know the following facts about them.

1. They are not permanent inhabitants of Enroth, they come and go as they please.
2. They appear through Portals of Glory, which means they are extra-planer creatures.
3. They hate Kreegans and defend Erathia against them.
4. The Kreegans also hate them equally.

I think they are creatures automatically summoned from their home planes in response to a detected Kreegan infestation on a planet.

Part of the planets automatic defense system against Kreegans, sort of like Escaton but a lot less drastic.

I think that the Plane of Glory is sort of the opposite of the Fiery Realm and that's why the Kreegans hate the Angels and vica versa.

The Angels follow their own agenda separately to the Ancients, but their opposition to the Fiery Realm makes them reliable allies that can be summoned to defeat the Kreegans by the Ancients defense system.

The Ancients by contrast are not humans but more like the Elementals of material reality, this is why they are so 'advanced', they have an intrinsic connection of the structure and fabric of the material universe, which means Science. Kind of like Fire Elementals have an intrinsic connection to Fire the Ancients have an intrinsic connection to Science.

Actually I have different theory about where they come from. We know that the Ancients created or at least used the elementals to form worlds. And from Might and Magic 7 and 8 we know that there are also Light Elementals you can summon through Light Magic (there are also some defending Celeste and Wizards/Archmages can summon them too when you battle them).
Since there are Planes of Fire, Air, Water and Earth, it follows that there must then also be a Plane of Light that we just never got to go to in the games. The Angels may live in this Plane of Light.

Aside from creating the world the fire, air, water and earth elementals were also used by Escaton to try and destroy it. Perhaps the Light Elementals and/or Angels also had a function in the war against the Kreegans: namely keeping them at bay or until the Ancients/Escaton can interfere, or even destroying the Kreegans themselves if the infestation is not too numerous.

In that case, the Angels would have been made/used by the Ancients to battle Kreegans. This means they would have been built/modified for this exact purpose, thus explaining their extra damage against devils in HoMM 3. The Kreegans in turn would have encountered them in other worlds as well, and perhaps developed/mutated/evolved means to defend themselves against them, explaining why the Devils inflict extra damage against angels.
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Postby Croix » Nov 10 2010, 10:21

-For me, this is something they were rather successful in drawing attention away from.
-I always assumed angels were made of congealed mortal faith. {Starts another post.} Since their gate, only, requires a large quantity of humans matching a certain criteria of belief to band together and organize themselves. You could say they came from another plane,▬ one of light, spirit, a combination of the two, or some reaction,▬ but what would make the bridge that particular plane among a multiverse of possibilities?

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Postby XEL II » Nov 10 2010, 12:47

Light Elementals appear to be created by Light Magic.

And Portals of Glory seem to lead to Celeste, Angels' primary stronghold, or other places on the planet where they gather.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » Nov 10 2010, 12:56

There is no info where these portals lead. Same situation with Light Plane... elemental is a physical manifestation of elements, it's "forces of nature" - it don't need to be creature from other planes.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Nov 10 2010, 23:24

The Angels follow their own agenda separately to the Ancients, but their opposition to the Fiery Realm makes them reliable allies that can be summoned to defeat the Kreegans by the Ancients defense system.


Seeing as Kreegans don't come from the Fiery Realm this is an impossibility. They probably are some kind of Guardians, maybe lesser ranked than Melian.

The Angels being supernatural in the Biblical sense seems to un-Might and Magic.

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Postby Croix » Nov 11 2010, 8:50

How is supernatural in the biblical sense different than supernatural in the magical sense?
-In the magical sense, it tends to be using imagination and the mind (including some element of faith) to alter reality. The power source is usually easy to locate, be it the person's own aura, another nearby plane of existence, leylines and the land, or some kind of reactor or catalyst. Although occasionally the power seems to be drawn from everyone acknowledging it, like below.
-In the biblical sense, it's energy of faith given by followers of that religion, probably creating this giant blob of godly stuff on some other nearby plane of existence, that can do things in addition to the real-life power of religion and faith. Angels could be some piece of that blob, built up slowly over time, serving whoever was powering them (whoever was "of the faith"). It's possible that being morally conflicted or without morals makes a mess of the energy they need to exist; so they will not serve any of those with conflicted or lacking morals, and will assuredly hate any of those that might cause conflicted or lacking morals, or in a word, devils.

I can see why they would skip around the subject publicly, considering how many people are about religion, but in the background writing and discussion, I don't see how they could have missed it.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Nov 11 2010, 11:28

What Bible are you reading?! And does it a too D's with a & between them on it by any chance?!
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Postby GreatEmerald » Nov 11 2010, 14:25

Croix wrote:How is supernatural in the biblical sense different than supernatural in the magical sense?


You're thinking about it wrong. The question here is not "magical vs biblical", it's "supernatural vs technological".

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 11 2010, 19:06

Macros the Black wrote:Actually I have different theory about where they come from. We know that the Ancients created or at least used the elementals to form worlds. And from Might and Magic 7 and 8 we know that there are also Light Elementals you can summon through Light Magic (there are also some defending Celeste and Wizards/Archmages can summon them too when you battle them).
Since there are Planes of Fire, Air, Water and Earth, it follows that there must then also be a Plane of Light that we just never got to go to in the games. The Angels may live in this Plane of Light.


The Angels have some kind of fundamental opposition to the Kreegans, but not to the Darkness Plane. If Angels are extra-planer, that it is pretty much a given that Devils/Kreegans are extra-planer as well and aligned to the opposite plane.

The Kreegans gain their power from the 'Fiery Realm' which suggests that they are also extra-planer in origin and they probably come from there originally. The Angels gain their power from the Plane of Glory, which is the opposite of the Fiery Realm.

Macros the Black wrote:Aside from creating the world the fire, air, water and earth elementals were also used by Escaton to try and destroy it. Perhaps the Light Elementals and/or Angels also had a function in the war against the Kreegans: namely keeping them at bay or until the Ancients/Escaton can interfere, or even destroying the Kreegans themselves if the infestation is not too numerous.

In that case, the Angels would have been made/used by the Ancients to battle Kreegans. This means they would have been built/modified for this exact purpose, thus explaining their extra damage against devils in HoMM 3. The Kreegans in turn would have encountered them in other worlds as well, and perhaps developed/mutated/evolved means to defend themselves against them, explaining why the Devils inflict extra damage against angels.


Yes, the Ancients (or rather their automatic defense grid) are using the Angels just as they used Elementals. However the Ancients did not create the Angels, just as they did not create the Elementals.

The Angels are actually as much the 'enemies' of the Ancients as the Kreegans are, this is why they weren't allowed to take up permanent residence, because they would begin to transform the world into an extension of the Plane of Glory, just as the Kreegans end up transforming the world into an extension of the Fiery Realm.

But the Angels are enemies of the Kreegans, which why the Ancients incorporate them into their defense system yet unleash them only when Kreegans are present in force.

Secret_Holder wrote:Seeing as Kreegans don't come from the Fiery Realm this is an impossibility. They probably are some kind of Guardians, maybe lesser ranked than Melian.

The Angels being supernatural in the Biblical sense seems to un-Might and Magic.


The Kreegans canonically draw their power from the Fiery Realm. They might not come from there, but it is hardly an 'impossibility'.

If something is dependent upon something found in a place to live, it is not unlikely that they originally came from there, even if they have developed some means to draw whatever it is from that place.

The Angels evidently come from another plane, because they come from what are called Portals of Glory. What is 'Glory' if not a plane of some sort?

Yes they are supernatural, but so are the Kreegans. The only creatures that are 'natural' are the Ancients themselves, because the natural world is formed from 'stuff' and 'ideas' drawn from ALL planes BY the Ancients who are elementals of the 'natural' world.

And every creature ultimately wants one thing, to get a bigger slice of the pie that is the natural universe. The Ancients use all the creatures to thwart their enemies, the Kreegans and Fiery Realm got uppity, they summon the Angels and the Realm of Glory to put them back in their place and 'defend' their slice of the pie.

Just as you use water to put out fire. But it doesn't mean you want to flood the entire earth.
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Postby Zenofex » Nov 11 2010, 22:07

Well, I actually expected this to happen even earlier...
End of topic I suppose...
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Postby Secret_Holder » Nov 12 2010, 0:05

Yes they are supernatural, but so are the Kreegans


Once again you're wrong. Their Hive clearly indicates a biological origin. But we've been over this before.

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Postby Croix » Nov 19 2010, 19:30

ThunderTitan wrote:What Bible are you reading?! And does it a too D's with a & between them on it by any chance?!
-I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would the specific religion make any notable difference? Why would their scripture alter how the systems work? My theory is meant to be applied to every fantasy universe I have ever come across, and evolves as I absorb more of them. So, in fact, it is based off of every author's subconscious preconceptions about what results they want in their fantasy. Amazingly enough, very few authors put significant logical thought into their systems, and even when they do, they rarely publish such, thus leaving the workings of said systems up to the observer.
-If you're looking for a bit more to relate it to this particular setting, you could say that if the angels are not directly powered by faith, it at least plays a major part in their ability to enter the plane of existence Enroth happens to be on.

-(This forum lacks many features I am overly familiar with, leading most noticeably to clicking in a certain spot beside posts in the topic review, assuming that it would insert a quote. I also morn the loss of [acronym] tags.)
GreatEmerald wrote:
Croix wrote:How is supernatural in the biblical sense different than supernatural in the magical sense?
You're thinking about it wrong.[...]
No need to be rude; you know the inflaming power of targeting the person instead of the topic. In fact, why do so many people here do this? Even last post with Secret_Holder.
GreatEmerald wrote:[...]The question here is not "magical vs biblical", it's "supernatural vs technological".
-Both I, and the hive-mind of this thread, are fairly sure that the Ancients did not create, and do not directly influence, the entity know as "the Angels".

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The Kreegans canonically draw their power from the Fiery Realm. They might not come from there, but it is hardly an 'impossibility'.
-Kreegans draw their power from large, decidedly technological, generators. Although presumably they can use fire magic, or demon summoning, like anyone else in Enroth.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes they are supernatural, but so are the Kreegans. The only creatures that are 'natural' are the Ancients themselves, because the natural world is formed from 'stuff' and 'ideas' drawn from ALL planes BY the Ancients who are elementals of the 'natural' world.
-Aside from the flaw Secret caught; may I have a clarification here? Are you talking about how Enroth was originally formed from the battles and corpses of elementals? (The part after makes sense though.)

Zenofex wrote:Well, I actually expected this to happen even earlier...
End of topic I suppose...
-You mean the looping? Or the erroneous/flawed information? =/ People always bring information like that with them, it doesn't necessary kill the thread.

Edit: Augh, formatting².

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Postby GreatEmerald » Nov 19 2010, 20:25

Croix wrote:No need to be rude; you know the inflaming power of targeting the person instead of the topic. In fact, why do so many people here do this? Even last post with Secret_Holder.

Both I, and the hive-mind of this thread, are fairly sure that the Ancients did not create, and do not directly influence, the entity know as "the Angels".


That was in no way intended as an insult, sorry if it seemed like that to you. Note that "Wrong..." and "Wrong!" have two very different emotions attached to them :)

Can you point out why you would believe that? So far I haven't seen anything that would convince me.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 19 2010, 21:16

Secret_Holder wrote:Once again you're wrong. Their Hive clearly indicates a biological origin. But we've been over this before.


Doesn't make sense.

Angels have heads, this indicates a biological origin. What particular social structures Kreegans happen to have does not have any bearing on what their ultimate origin is natural or not.

Because we are talking here about whether they are natural or supernatural, not whether they are biological or not. Anything alive is technically 'biological'.

Croix wrote:-Kreegans draw their power from large, decidedly technological, generators. Although presumably they can use fire magic, or demon summoning, like anyone else in Enroth.


No they draw their 'power', which appears to be like their life force or essence or strength of some sort, since disrupting their connection from the Fiery Realm weakens them BIOLOGICALLY, this is why the Angel Blade works against them.

This is stated in the Heroes IV death campaign which is a canonical source.

Gauldoth travels to the Fiery Realm by destroying the Angels Blade. However the Fiery Realm he travels to is actually a planet that has fallen under the domination of the Kreegans.

But given that the Kreegans weren't originally there, the Fiery Realm cannot merely be a planet, because their existence must have proceeded their taking over said planet. But without the energy from the Fiery Realm they wouldn't have been able to do this or perhaps even survive, the Angel Blade kills or weakens Kreegans by severing their connection to said realm, the source of their "power".

This is why I say the Kreegans are supernatural in origin (this has nothing to do with whether they are biological or not), they draw upon what must be some kind of extra-planer realm for their strength.

Planets that fall under Kreegan dominion become *the* Fiery Realm, which is an extra planer reality (i.e supernatural). The Kreegans are thus engaged knowingly or not upon the project to turn the natural world into an extension of a supernatural reality, to which they are irrevocably bound.

Croix wrote:-Aside from the flaw Secret caught; may I have a clarification here? Are you talking about how Enroth was originally formed from the battles and corpses of elementals? (The part after makes sense though.)


The natural world (Enroth, Axeoth etc) is formed of elements. Those elements correspond to extra-planer realities each ruled by a race of elementals. Those realities are what we might call 'supernatural' that is beyond or above the natural world.

The Ancients we know have the ability to summon elementals from those planes onto their worlds. Thus we can deduce that they drew the very substances that they made their world from extra planer realms as well.

What are the Ancients? Well since every realm is ruled by a race of elementals, why not the 'natural' world which consists essentially of one pure 'element' (space) over which rule the Ancients as the elementals of space.

Just as it is the nature of space to limit and give boundaries to things, the nature of the Ancients is to draw upon other planes energies and shape them.

Now the Angels, they are two things. One they are fundermentally opposed to the Kreegans, which are tied to the Fiery Realm plane. And the second they come from 'Portals of Glory'. What is the definition of 'Glory'?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glory
1. Great honor, praise, or distinction accorded by common consent; renown.
2. Something conferring honor or renown.
3. A highly praiseworthy asset: Your wit is your crowning glory.
4. Adoration, praise, and thanksgiving offered in worship.
5. Majestic beauty and splendor; resplendence: The sun set in a blaze of glory.
6. The splendor and bliss of heaven; perfect happiness.
7. A height of achievement, enjoyment, or prosperity: ancient Rome in its greatest glory.
8. A halo, nimbus, or aureole. Also called gloriole.
intr.v. glo·ried, glo·ry·ing, glo·ries
To rejoice triumphantly; exult: a sports team that gloried in its hard-won victory.


The Plane of Glory then is a place where everything is better, stronger, more permanent THAN IT IS IN REALITY! This is why angels can raise the dead, because they draw on the immortal permanence of everything that exists in the Plane of Glory to preserve forms in reality against destruction.

The Fiery Realm is a featureless sea of magma where everything is permanently in chaotic flux. Everything that is opposite to the Plane of Glory.

The natural world is in the middle, definite forms exist but are prone to death, decay and erosion. Thus we can derive that the Ancients drew from both planes in shaping the real world.

They drew their ideas, their forms from the Realm of Glory, but used the chaotic substance of the Fiery Realm probably to warp the boundaries between elements to allow them to create a far wider range of materials than existed in the separate planes, which allowed them to realize in reality those very forms.

The Angels aim to perfect the universe's forms, to make them perfectly well glorious. The Kreegans creators (not the Kreegans themselves as they have a form) wish to take back the substances that were stolen from them by the Ancients and dissolve everything into the Fiery Realm.

Both objectives are however at odds with the objectives of the Ancients, but since the Kreegans have found their way into the material universe the Ancients are happy to use the Angels to destroy the Kreegans, even as they ultimately intend to banish the Angels from material reality when they have finished doing so.

All to maintain the 'Status Quo' of suffering and death that the Ancients have created. If the Angels were allowed to manifest freely, however useful that might be in fighting the Kreegans, it would raise the prospect of Heaven on Earth coming into existence and threatening this Status Quo.
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