Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

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Lord of the Guns
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Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Lord of the Guns » Oct 30 2010, 13:55

I've saw a thread in H6 today, it said that Necromancy is more or less religion of some sort, their practices include eating anything mixed by poisons extracted from a special spider breed. and such practices either turn oneself into a lich or vampire....

That's not an impressive backstory of Ashanite necromancers right?

ok let's talk about Necromancy in Caneghem universe. It is clearly that Liches and Vamps have a very different origins. Necromancy in Caneghem universe stems from Wizard practices and it's less religious than Ashanites. We are all known that if one living necromancer is to become a lich, he/she has to pass what is called. "Rites of neverending nights" (i can't remember its actual name). the rites includes the uses of two things.
- book of the Dead (MM8)
- Lich jars (MM7 and MM8)
and once he/she became a lich, every fleshy things are now discarded to embrace a twisting immortality (??)...
And it is known that Ethric of Enroth discovered the rites and became a lich. THE FIRST lich.

But. there's still doubts.
1. in MM7. Soul jars have a descriptions involving that each jars contain some kind of poisonous beings, usually snakes of some sort. Do you really know the compositions of these jars? and how do these jars work.
2. And about the same jars, it is said that very few soceities knows how to make them. and.... iroically not the OFFICIAL necromancer guild, in MM7, Nighon warlocks make jars (and use it to extort/attains higher bargains over Deyjans), in MM8, Zanthora the outcast necromancer made jars.
3. Does the rite to become liches also involves the use of the specific location called the Mausoleum? in H2 onwards, Mausoleum is Liches dwelling. but the late material said that liches are made out of a living necromancer and with his/her consent. (while lesser undeads are pure slaves to necromancers)
and does anyone here knows how does the rite looks like?
4. And what is Caneghem's point of view on vampire origins on his MM universes? while life drain revives any existing vamp friends belongs to their commander. it doesn't seem to make a new vamp out of victims.
Does it requires any rituals for a living dude to become vamp, and is it includes oneself's consent?

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Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 30 2010, 16:23

1 and 2 - magic. You put your soul into soul jars. And the jars themselves are enchanted in some way.
3 - I don't think so. Just that a mausoleum is a place ornate enough for liches to live in.
4 - I think that in some of the bios in MM8 it was said that you have to be bitten by another vampire to turn into one.

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 30 2010, 16:28

Lord of the Guns wrote:4. And what is Caneghem's point of view on vampire origins on his MM universes? while life drain revives any existing vamp friends belongs to their commander. it doesn't seem to make a new vamp out of victims.
Does it requires any rituals for a living dude to become vamp, and is it includes oneself's consent?


No, there are two ways to become a Vampire. One is by a spell, which is cast upon a living or dead being. Gauldoth was made half-dead by this method.
Image
Thant - Vampire Male Necromancer
Skills: Basic Necromancy, Basic Mysticism
Specialty: Thant's proficiency with the Animate Dead spell allows him to cast it with increased effect, based on his level compared to the level of the target unit. (greater bonus on weaker units)
Biography: No one is really sure how long Thant has been alive. Some say he fought for Erathia during the Timber Wars, but fell prey to a Vampire during an all-night march through Phynaxia.


As you can see from Thant, he became a Vampire because he fell prey to another vampire.

The reason you don't get new vampires from killing your enemies with Vampires is perhaps that the process is a gradual one, it takes many months to complete. Your fledgling vampires made this wayare just too weak to be of use in battle, so have to return to a Vampire Estate to complete the process.

Lord of the Guns wrote:3. Does the rite to become liches also involves the use of the specific location called the Mausoleum? in H2 onwards, Mausoleum is Liches dwelling. but the late material said that liches are made out of a living necromancer and with his/her consent. (while lesser undeads are pure slaves to necromancers)
and does anyone here knows how does the rite looks like?


Well we know that in Heroes V Liches can be created from dead wizards and priests without their consent and are less thus no less enslaved than skeletons and zombies.

Liches can be being that embrace Lichedom of their own free will. But they aren't necessarily so.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 30 2010, 16:31

Slayer wrote:No, there are two ways to become a Vampire. One is by a spell, which is cast upon a living or dead being. Gauldoth was made half-dead by this method.


What are you talking about - Gauldoth isn't a vampire, or half-vampire, or vampiric in the slightest.

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Lord of the Guns » Oct 30 2010, 16:53

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
Lord of the Guns wrote:3. Does the rite to become liches also involves the use of the specific location called the Mausoleum? in H2 onwards, Mausoleum is Liches dwelling. but the late material said that liches are made out of a living necromancer and with his/her consent. (while lesser undeads are pure slaves to necromancers)
and does anyone here knows how does the rite looks like?


Well we know that in Heroes V Liches can be created from dead wizards and priests without their consent and are less thus no less enslaved than skeletons and zombies.


The question above is referred to Caneghem universe and not Ashanites. sir.


Liches can be being that embrace Lichedom of their own free will. But they aren't necessarily so.


In Caneghem storylines, is there any evidence suggesting that liches made of enemy spellcasters (and enslaved) ever exists?

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby XEL II » Oct 30 2010, 17:14

Lord of the Guns wrote:In Caneghem storylines, is there any evidence suggesting that liches made of enemy spellcasters (and enslaved) ever exists?

Nicolas Gryphonheart and Lord Haart. First ressurected by Vilmar, second by his remaining cult memebers. Judging from Gryphonheart's ressurection, special artifact is required to do so. There was also a quest in MM7 where NPC ressurects his dead brother as a lich.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 30 2010, 20:03

Also, perhaps not as strong a point, but the Cloak of the Undead King makes you resurrect liches instead of Skeletons.
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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 30 2010, 20:14

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The reason you don't get new vampires from killing your enemies with Vampires is perhaps that the process is a gradual one, it takes many months to complete. Your fledgling vampires made this wayare just too weak to be of use in battle, so have to return to a Vampire Estate to complete the process.

Well, you do get new vampires immediately when you kill others in HoMM games. But then again, only with Vampire Lords.

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Avonu » Oct 30 2010, 20:18

Lord of the Guns wrote:"Rites of neverending nights" (i can't remember its actual name). the rites includes the uses of two things.
- book of the Dead (MM8)
- Lich jars (MM7 and MM8)
and once he/she became a lich, every fleshy things are now discarded to embrace a twisting immortality (??)...
And it is known that Ethric of Enroth discovered the rites and became a lich. THE FIRST lich.


Ritual of the Endless Night.
To became lich you don't need to be necromancer. You can be a wizard too. Also it is very common to find a lich who was warlock earlier - they perform ritual when they want more time for learning secrets of magic. Not world domination, rising undead army but simply hunger of knowledge.

You forgot about MM9 when you used machine to transform your scholar into lich. Machine was in special location and need from user:
a) Get sheet with "Became a lich for dummies" :D which describe what you need to do to prepare yourself for great power.
b) Drink special potion made in laboratory.
c) Enter machine and watch how your inner organs were ripped apart from your body and placed in soul jar (it was "painless" process ofc ;) ).


Lord of the Guns wrote:3. Does the rite to become liches also involves the use of the specific location called the Mausoleum? in H2 onwards, Mausoleum is Liches dwelling. but the late material said that liches are made out of a living necromancer and with his/her consent. (while lesser undeads are pure slaves to necromancers)
and does anyone here knows how does the rite looks like?

No. Ritual in MM7 was performed in lich house, same in MM8. You only needed soul jar and a lot of time to performe this "painless" ritual.

Lord of the Guns wrote:4. And what is Caneghem's point of view on vampire origins on his MM universes? while life drain revives any existing vamp friends belongs to their commander. it doesn't seem to make a new vamp out of victims.

Vampires are thousand years old so I suppose they are from another planet. Maybe it is evolution (different sun) or maybe they catch some virus or disease (like mix of XP and Leukemia in our world).

Lord of the Guns wrote:Does it requires any rituals for a living dude to become vamp, and is it includes oneself's consent?

No ritual is needed. Just "kiss with a tooth". :D


And Gauldoth was a zombie.

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 30 2010, 21:40

Avonu wrote:Not world domination, rising undead army but simply hunger of knowledge.


Or just fear of death. Which is paradoxical, because when you turn into a lich, you die and are then reanimated (I assume that by yourself).

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 30 2010, 22:07

Avonu wrote:And Gauldoth was a zombie.


No he was half-vampire.
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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby XEL II » Oct 30 2010, 22:34

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No he was half-vampire.

No, he wasn't.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Nov 1 2010, 22:58

XEL II wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No he was half-vampire.

No, he wasn't.


Yes he was, because that is what I remember. I can't be bothered to hunt down the exact pop-up.
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Postby Corlagon » Nov 1 2010, 23:57


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Re: Necromancy, Liches and Vampires

Postby Secret_Holder » Nov 2 2010, 18:41

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
XEL II wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No he was half-vampire.

No, he wasn't.


Yes he was, because that is what I remember. I can't be bothered to hunt down the exact pop-up.


Well if you can't be "bothered" backing up your arguments, maybe you shouldn't argue ;|

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Postby Lord of the Guns » Nov 5 2010, 17:57

[/u] before Karribar rescued him. so vampire bite ALONE can turn a mortal living man into vamp is not likely. there must be something more than that to make such "mutation" possible.

Thant - Vampire Male Necromancer
Skills: Basic Necromancy, Basic Mysticism
Specialty: Thant's proficiency with the Animate Dead spell allows him to cast it with increased effect, based on his level compared to the level of the target unit. (greater bonus on weaker units)
Biography: No one is really sure how long Thant has been alive. Some say he fought for Erathia during the Timber Wars, but fell prey to a Vampire during an all-night march through Phynaxia.


And throughout the campaign. the necromancy skill (i think at GRANDMASTER aptitude level) makes vamps out of any living victims. including KREEGANS (i've just found out that Venom Spawn is actually a KREEGAN and not UNDEAD). even without any vampire participating the necromancer hero (and even if a necromancer is not a vamp him/her self). so saying that Vampire mansion is required to finish the mutation process is quite doubious. mmmm if you have any official texts regarding to Necromancer and vamps as Caneghem viewed. feel free to post.

2. In the first mission he said that during the Reckoning, he, as an apprentice. tried to rescue his master, Karribar. but it turned out that the rescue attempt ws an impossible odd, resulting in his last struggle to survive, with anything within his reach. including the use of a spell scroll (it was too chaotic to Identify which magic or what purpose does the scroll was made for. once he finished using the scroll. he found himself in a new world (yes! an AXEOTH), and also found out that he became something that never exists before. a sentient being with a living part, and undead part, fused in one body.

maybe the scroll he was using is in fact designed for "Ritual of the Endless Night", and it IS designed to use in conjunction with SOUL JARS and a surgeon machine/ assistances. it is clear that a soul jar is REQUIRED for one individual to become a lich--one jar per one person, and if one said that the jar houses human vital organs, then it is assumed that
a. The jar works much in the same way as Egyptian mummy organ jars. to "anchor" an individual soul (that gives him/her a sentient)
b. The jar itself is VERY big. and it will be placed INSIDE liche's rib cage (maybe this could be a reason why a lich wears metal cuirass), probably big enough for all vital organs to be placed inside and "perseved" (??). However in MM7, a set of soul jars (4) has a size of 4X4 (i can't remember how big the jar is in MM8?)

I'm not sure if this is a description of a soul jar but if one said that Gauldoth is half human half LICH. then it must be based on the scroll he used upon himself as his last struggle.

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Postby Avonu » Nov 6 2010, 12:19

Ritual of the Endless Night take several hours to perform - read lich promotion texts in MM7.
Also, I can't find right now from where was info about Galdouth being Zombie but from what I remember it was official.
Well, in H2 we have several zombie heroes.

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Postby XEL II » Nov 6 2010, 15:22

Actually, he is a half-zombie.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » Nov 6 2010, 15:22

Avonu wrote:Well, in H2 we have several zombie heroes.

You mean H4?
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby tolich » Nov 6 2010, 16:53

Avonu wrote:Well, in H2 we have several zombie heroes.

Charity, Ranloo, Rialdo, Zam and Zom seem to be Vampires. Sandro is a Lich. Celia, Darlana and Roxana are Humans. Who is Zombie?


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