Sandro/Yog/other lore characters discussion

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Variol
Pit Lord
Pit Lord
Posts: 1249
Joined: 05 Sep 2008

Postby Variol » Oct 22 2010, 10:04

Yeah people, this is a game where you run around, find stuff and kill a bunch of stuff. Let's hold to the spirit of "community".

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23263
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 26 2010, 9:59

Corlagon wrote:Is he doing this deliberately to annoy us or something?


Frankly i can't tell if he's just trolling or is actually that capable of self delusion.


theLuckyDragon wrote:Really, why did I ever think a separate thread would help calm down spirits?!


Hopefully is drugs... otherwise i would have to feel sorry for you... :tongue:
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €

Image

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 26 2010, 11:24

tress wrote:Actually I have yet to see that reference you mention. Also even if we theoretically assume he might be his father, then that still doesnt make sense, since blue skin is due to his half genie heritage, unless his father had serious rum drinking problem and was with totally wasted liver that made his face blue.


And why can't Yog's father be part genie also? It says that his mother is a full genie, but doesn't say anything about his father other than that he is a barbarian and not a full genie.

tress wrote:Actually it cant be that easy,
1 - he mentions he studied in Bracada all his life, so he cant be barbarian from start.
2. Given time frame of campaings he couldn't have been in Enroth at time Gem was there, if we consider Vidomnias apperance as argument
That is actually one of the inconsistencies I see in SOD campaings. I have yet to start my problems with Sandro that half of which actually hardly makes sense,


Yes it says that he studied magic under the wizards of Bracada all his life, no time for a couple of decades at the minimum to cover Heroes II and I eras.

Corlagon wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It's just what it says during the first Sandro POV campaign.


I'll bite. Go ahead and find a quote from the "first Sandro POV campaign" (Rise of the Necromancer) saying Sandro's human at that point.


I don't have access to that campaign and even if I did am disinclined to play the whole campaign just to get a quote. I remember that there is a quote from I think the second map when he is eying up Vidomina and reflecting upon the fact that his transformation to Liche is not fully complete.

Why would I make that up? Do I want Sandro not to be his Heroes II/I self? Am I not the person who believes that Heroes V is the future of Heroes IV?

XEL II wrote:Slayer, can't you see that it says that Sandro is lich with his "human" portait? And the same portait is used in the mission where he disguises himself with illusion.


If I did not already know from my recollection of the campaign itself that Sandro was in process of becoming a Liche at the beginning of the first Sandro POV campaign, then I would agree with.



tress wrote:That is actually explanation that actually would make sense, hoverer he would have to be wizard by that time, whil Gem comments on him as barbarian, and does not comment on his change of heart. Also that still doesnt explain his apperance in HOMM1 if we consider it a canon.
Mind linking to or giving SS of him, since only blue guy in HOMM2 is Zom that is necromancer, and most certainlly there is no hero with name Yog.
P.S is it me or Slayers theories gets progressively more pulled of from common sense and canon?


It says at the beginning of the very first Campaign that Yog has studied magic with the wizards of Bracada all his life. There is no Barbarian background in two games, because that would directly contradict the canon.

The Yog of Heroes I/II is evidently a different person and it is clear that 3DO made a decision to make that so. They could easily enough have given Yog a Enrothian past like Gem and Crag Hack, yet deliberately not only chose to rule that out, but were quite aware of what they were doing when they had Gem mistakenly think that the new Yog is the old one.


tress wrote:Mind linking to or giving SS of him, since only blue guy in HOMM2 is Zom that is necromancer, and most certainlly there is no hero with name Yog.
P.S is it me or Slayers theories gets progressively more pulled of from common sense and canon?


It's good to see you lot haven't changed. As obnoxious as ever and always assuming that I am lying unless I have direct evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately I do have direct evidence that the specific position that you have decided upon to pointlessly contradict me upon is completely right.:) :) :) Or half-right depending upon whether you are also claiming that Sandro is in Heroes II.

Image

Sandro is in Heroes II, however I have not managed to find and this is not for lack of trying Yog so I admit being wrong on one point or I am very, very unlucky (there is no choose specific lead hero feature in Heroes II it's all random).

But Gem recalls encountering Yog (Heroes I) and Gem is both a Heroes I hero and a Heroes II one. Since he is absent during the succession wars era, it must be that he had left Enroth after Heroes I.

Probably because he was fighting on the losing side (Lord Slayer). Having fled to Antagarich, he met Yog's genie mother and conceived baby Yog.

This event happened during the Heroes II timeframe, so that baby Yog is now a young man by Heroes III beginning (SOD).

Macros the Black wrote:Well, since Ethric was a warlock who discovered how to become a lich, and was serving the Warlocks, perhaps he is only angry at Sandro because he joined the actual Necromancer faction, instead of being a necromancer/lich who served the Warlocks. If you look at it this way, the Necromancer faction was a renegade faction at that time, that existed because some of Ethric's previous followers made their own faction. Does that make sense?


Heroes I Sandro was a Warlock that was also mysteriously a Liche. Heroes II Sandro is a Necromancer.

As we have definite evidence (see above) of this; the Sandro of Heroes III could not have become angry at Sandro for becoming a Warlock because he is already a Necromancer in Heroes II.

We do know that the Sandro of Heroes I abandoned Warlockry and embraced Necromancy between Heroes I and II.

And the Sandro of Heroes III is clearly a different person to the Heroes II and I Sandro's.

Heroes III Sandro begins as a human apprentice to an academic called Ethric. Neither him or Ethric are Liches. When he was acquired the items he is seeking, he then begins the transformation into a Liche.

This transformation is a gradual one and takes place over the process of the first Sandro POV campaign but is over by the end of this campaign.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 27 2010, 18:46

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I don't have access to that campaign and even if I did am disinclined to play the whole campaign just to get a quote. I remember that there is a quote from I think the second map when he is eying up Vidomina and reflecting upon the fact that his transformation to Liche is not fully complete.


You're disinclined? Experto crede, then, or no? You could only possibly be referring to the paragraph where he mentions "human frailties". Human frailties are an oft-used figure of speech or expression, very much akin to "poor devil"... :devious:

From mission 1:

My name is Jeddite. Perhaps you remember me, if your memories are not clouded by your undead mind.


For all the times I've played the campaign, I never ever found any mention of Sandro undergoing the Ritual of Endless Night during its timeline - surely because that would outright contradict H1 and 2. Maybe you'll have more "luck". ;)

User avatar
Secret_Holder
Assassin
Assassin
Posts: 266
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Location: The freezing cold North

Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 27 2010, 23:55

For Slayers benefit.

Sandro in HoMM I:
Image

Yog in HoMM I:
Image

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23263
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 28 2010, 7:35

Heroes III Sandro begins as a human apprentice to an academic called Ethric. Neither him or Ethric are Liches. When he was acquired the items he is seeking, he then begins the transformation into a Liche.


You know, the first time i saw Sandro in Gem and Crag's cinematics i said to myself that they're both morons (well a barbarian is not supposed to be very bright, but Gem has no excuse) because the guy was clearly starting to rot, even if just slightly...

And then there's his biography:

Sandro first studied Necromancy under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric. Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia, and now serves Finneas Vilmar, leader of the Necromancers of Deyja.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 28 2010, 10:52

Corlagon wrote:??? Er, XEL, you just did exactly this to me not even one page ago in the post when I mentioned I was leaving the room, ordering me not to object to your infallible theory... what exactly do you expect?

It was simply a suggestion or request, if you like, I was just asking you to not troll. And you were saying "I'm not gonna let you get way" like you have any authority over me. Anyway, none of my post was meant to offend you in any way.
Corlagon wrote:I forfeit, you guys post all the conjectural craziness in the world around CH about Kreegans and Ethrics and Kings of Erathia you like in future, and I'll be all humble and quiet and agree that you know it all, and just stop posting clarifications and quotes or answering requests for storyline help or consultation, while sticking to what the games say on my wiki.

I think you're overreacting :) And calling other posts (except Slayer's that obviously are) "conjectural craziness" is a step too far.
Corlagon wrote:Not to mention we've discussed all of this a hundred times already.

Actually, there were discussions about it in two thread, only one of which involved me :) But anyway, I suggest that we "settle this once and for all". I present my arguements, you present your and lets see whose are stronger. My arguements for CotD taking place after AB:

In Map 2 of Playing With Fire campaign there are Tavern rumors with references to all other AB campaigns. There is this one rumor saying "A Nighon Overlord want to be Queen". It is titled Dragon's Blood, so it obviously means that Mutare campaign takes place in the same time period. Note that Sir Christian campaign is referenced in past tense, while all other (including Dragon's Blood) in present.
There is also the matter of Adrienne's age. If CotD took place before RoE she wouldn't be able to meet Tarnum in AvLee, since he was in Eeofol as the time. Not to mention she could hardly have been his lover when she was less than 15.
You mentioned Rust Dragon, Waerjak's age and Kreegan problems. Well, I don't see any problems with Waerjak (he could easily around 16 at the time of CotD) and I vaen't found anything contradicting about Rust Dragons in CotD texts. As I said earlier, an extremely samll amount of Kreegans may have survived AB. In MM8 it's not like Escaton scanned the whole population of Enroth and would have destroyed the planet if a couple of Kreegans survived. Plus, Hexx bio and Calh and Ash living suggest that there are living Kreegans on Enroth after AB. They're just so small in numbers that they weren't found in Eeofol.
As for King of Erathia this is apparently the new King chosen by Morgan Kendal. Sir Kentaine just says that he outlived a king and a queen referring to rulers from the Gryphonheart dynasty to which he was the Swordbearer.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 28 2010, 11:57

XEL (since I am already going overboard on the Latin), it is simply a case of "nemo iudex in causa sua" regarding CotD. We both have all the facts and both have a bias so there is little more to discuss within reason. I'm sure everyone here has an idea whose posts are crazy and whose aren't :P

So let's approach it from the point of view of someone looking for verifiability; no fan-fiction or wily (mis)interpretations.
There are conflicts even if you assume either stance, and your paragraph makes this very clear even though you don't concede it outright. You handwaved away Escaton's claims just like Slayer has and handwaved Sir Kentaine into being incorrect, which is fine if the storywriter backs you up, but I could handwave away the tavern rumour too if he backs me up; as of now he hasn't backed anybody up and probably never will. Handwaving is fine if you're only being speculative, but it isn't constructive for encyclopedic purposes since it doesn't deal with facts.

- The King of Erathia isn't the *King* of Erathia: weak argument
- Escaton was wrong: weak argument
- Kreegans were not exterminated: weak argument


On the other hand

- That tavern rumour was wrong: weak argument
- Adrienne had an underage romance with Tarnum (:P): weak argument
...and whatever other holes you brought up


So that's why I think it's best not to state definitively that "CotD is after AB, agree or be wrong!" You'll notice I'm not supporting the idea that it's before AB anymore, I only state that it's not confirmed either way.

I don't know why you desperately, even militantly want/need CotD to be after AB anyway, almost to the point of what looks like touchy indignation when I again disagreed - "you better acknowledge what I say", "face it, you have no arguments", "don't you tell me what not to post" and so on? As if it really matters that much - it's doubtful there'll be another story or campaign taking place in that timeframe. It isn't difficult at all simply to state "we don't know exactly when CotD took place though it was in and around the Restoration Wars because Mutare was in it". Or is it?

Rust Dragons:

Rust Dragons wrote:While I was freeing the good Dragons from Mutare's control, the Dragon Queen lured the Rust Dragons to her side. At one time, these wild and unpredictable beasts were believed to be a myth because no one ever survived an encounter with them. Even the good Dragons thought they had all died off, but somehow Mutare found them.


In AB they publicly devastated the town of Ochre. So much for being totally unheard of for so long if CotD is later than this.
I'm sure you could handwave this away with ease, I could too, but my point is that there will be no definitive evidence to point at unless you can somehow get in touch with old Terray.

XEL II wrote:like you have any authority over me


Not at all - far be it from me to tell anybody what to do! As Evelyn Hall said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - even if it's incorrect. I simply reserve the right to discredit your statements. Indeed, a maxim we could all learn from:

"I can post whatever I want as long as it doesn't violate this forum's rules and don't need you approval nor you have any right to command me, so don't tell me what to post and what not to post" :devious:

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 28 2010, 12:51

Corlagon wrote:- The King of Erathia isn't the *King* of Erathia: weak argument
- Escaton was wrong: weak argument

I NEVER said that! Reread my post and you will see that I say that King of Erathia is King of Erathia. And Escaton is right, of course. KReegan were exterminated as a race on Enroth. I simply said that he hardly checked every corner of Enroth for every single surviving Kreegan. Also, Sir Kentaine is correct, he did outlive king and queen Gryphonheart, stating this in context of renouncing his position of the Gryphonheart Swordbearer. So, there is my one weak arguement against your two :tongue:
Corlagon wrote:- That tavern rumour was wrong: weak argument

I don't think it is reasonable to disagree that this rumor explicitly states that Dragon's Blood occurs in the same timeframe as Playing With Fire. It is in present simple tense, the text is titled "Dragon's Blood". After all, this is (maybe the only) solid fact to imply that CotD was after AB, which was yet to be disproved, don't you agree?
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23263
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 29 2010, 6:17

Not to mention she could hardly have been his lover when she was less than 15.


Yeah, because that never happens... at least she wasn't his cousin... Great Balls of Fire was great though...
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 29 2010, 16:37

So, Slayer, could you please present us the proof from Rise of the Necromancer that Sandro was human and not Sandro from HoMM1-2 and the proof from any game that Yog from HoMM3 isn't Yog from HoMM1?
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 29 2010, 17:32

Corlagon wrote:You're disinclined? Experto crede, then, or no? You could only possibly be referring to the paragraph where he mentions "human frailties". Human frailties are an oft-used figure of speech or expression, very much akin to "poor devil"... :devious:


What is the program you used to get me that text file? How do I get it?

That was just the first thing I remember about the mission. I have more basis to claim that Sandro was at least not entirely a Liche during the earlier missions. I will compile all the evidence together here.

Mission 2 wrote:==First Lesson==
Vidomina continues to demonstrate great talent and dedication to becoming a Necromancer. Having spent the day conferring with your advisors, you were not available to tutor today, but in the evening you check upon her studies. As you watch her practice incantations under the moonlight, you realize that she is also quite beautiful. Suddenly her eyes meet yours and she smiles warmly. You turn away, slightly ashamed for the momentary indulgence. Necromancers are not supposed to have such feelings!

Vidomina walks over and places her hand on your shoulder. "Good evening, Master. It is good to see you. I missed your company today-"

You brush her hand away. "Your first lesson for this evening: do not be so familiar with me. Necromancers must constantly deal in death, and it is wise to remain distant to those around you, even your mentors."

"Yes, Master," Vidomina replies sheepishly.

"Now for your second lesson. Do not place too much trust in other people, especially the living. All day long my advisors have been providing information about this land we journey through, but I worry that I have grown to rely on them too much. I need you to go forth and bring me your own impressions of our situation. Discover how powerful our enemies are, how many troops they have, and what kind of magic they use. The last four towns I encountered were quite easy to defeat, but I do not wish to fall into the trap of being over-confident. I need a fresh pair of eyes to appraise what lies before us. Now go!"

As you watch Vidomina ride off on her first lone excursion, you can't decide whether to feel relief or apprehension.


If Sandro is a complete Liche already, he would not express such feelings towards Vidomina. And even if he did, they would not be as reciprocal as they are described as being here? Sandro the liche might desire Vidomina, but would Vidomina desire a liche?

The other thing here is how angry he gets about it and the way he responds later. Why does he overreact in such a way, because "necromancers are not supposed to have such feelings"?

Mission 2 wrote:==Sandro in Love==
"He's in love, I tell you," a skeleton warrior whispers to his comrades. "Haven't you seen the way he looks at her? Why when she rode off, he practically got all misty-eyed."

"Shut up, you fool," a zombie warns. "Spreading gossip like that can get you killed."

"Ha! I'm not afraid of Sandro," the skeleton snorts. "Why, he's so love-struck, I wonder if he still has the mettle to lead us into..."

A sudden bolt of lighting sends the skeleton's charred bones flying in all directions. "There will be no more of such talk! Now, back to your duties," Sandro snarls at the surviving troops. They quickly scatter off to their posts.

Curse your human frailties, you admonish yourself. If you fail to keep your emotions in better check, your armies may lose confidence in your leadership.


If undead have normal sexual desires, then nothing written above makes any sense. He is sensitive about the fact that he is not completely undead or undead at all yet. That he still desires women proves that he is not properly undead, which is what he overreacts too.

The skeleton was feeling superior to Sandro because he is properly undead and thus devoid of lust. Sandro feels ashamed of this sign of being still at least partly human and is perhaps irrationally afraid that if he does not properly renounce his desires he will not complete the transformation into a Liche. (or worse that he will end up with sexual desires that physically cannot be satisfied due to his undead state)

But if undead had sexual desires like mortals, then Sandros overreaction makes no sense at all, nor does the attitude of his minions, who are basically mocking the fact that Sandro is not completely undead yet in order to feel superior.


Mission 1 wrote:==Overconfidence==
Sending a message confidently announcing your intentions to your enemy is not normally your approach. You prefer a deceitful manipulation or a surprise attack to the chivalry of civilized warfare. However, you are paying your advisors a large sum of gold to reveal your enemies' weaknesses to you, and they advise you thusly: "Send a message to all towns in this area announcing you hold the artifacts. Then explain with excruciating detail just how terribly powerful you will become when you use them. Tell them if they don't permit you to pass, you will use the artifacts in battle and cast the shadow of death over their land."

You agree that the announcement will at the very least shake your enemy's confidence and perhaps even delay them with debate so that you can continue your journey into Deyja. If the message fails to deter them from blocking your passage, then you can always fall back on the more sinister methods of persuasion you prefer. After several hours of rough drafts and wine goblets, you finally settle upon the final wording to be sent at the next dawn.


This is the far strongest evidence in favor of Sandro's humanity at the beginning of the Rise of the Necromancer Campaign. That Sandro is drinking wine proves that he is still a living being in Mission 1, undead do not eat or drink.

In light of this crushing evidence to the effect that Sandro is still alive during Mission 1 we can also understand the former passages to refer to Sandro's continued humanity throughout Mission 2.

Mission 3 wrote:==Criminal?==
You are greeted with sharpened sticks pointed directly at your face. A stout dwarf passes between his tribesmen and approaches. "Who goes there?" he demands. Before he can see your face, an illusion covers your bones with flesh.

"No one of consequence," you answer meekly. "Why do you stop us from passing through? We mean you no harm."

"We are on the look out for a criminal named Sandro."

"Criminal? What crime has he committed?"

"He has slain our brethren, and we intend to exact vengeance upon him. They stood opposed to the evil he created but fell beneath his mighty sword," the dwarf replies.

"You certainly look prepared. What makes you think this Sandro might be near?"

"We've received warning from Lord Alarice. He may be a Necromancer as well, but he too wishes Sandro to be stopped. We will allow his armies to be depleted and then defeat the both of them, removing the evil artifacts from possession of the Necromancers."

"Well, I wish you luck. It sounds like you're going to need it. By the way, do you have any idea who I am?"

"You? I don't believe we've met before."

"Then allow me to introduce myself. My name is Sandro, and I take great pleasure in ridding the world of stupid, boastful Dwarves like yourself." You wave to your army. "Attack!"


This is the third piece of evidence that suggests that by Mission 3 the transformation into an undead creature is complete. Sandro can no longer pass as a human being without the help of magic, while earlier he was flirting with Vidomina while feeling ashamed of it and drinking copious amounts of wine.

Corlagon wrote:From mission 1:
My name is Jeddite. Perhaps you remember me, if your memories are not clouded by your undead mind.


For all the times I've played the campaign, I never ever found any mention of Sandro undergoing the Ritual of Endless Night during its timeline - surely because that would outright contradict H1 and 2. Maybe you'll have more "luck". ;)


Well, there is nothing to contradict because the Heroes II and I Sandro is a completely different person to Heroes III/IV/V Sandro as is proven even by the passage you quote to prove he is already an undead being.

Mission 1 wrote:==Sandro vs Jeddite==
You have just received a threatening letter from the Barbarians due west. It reads:

"Sandro,

My name is Jeddite. Perhaps you remember me, if your memories are not clouded by your undead mind. We were students together under Ethric. By becoming a Necromancer, you have completely shamed me, for it was I who introduced you to Ethric. I should have listened to him. From the start, he doubted your ability to wisely endure the burden of magical knowledge.

Ethric told me of the two artifacts now in your possession. Know this, Sandro: you will not get past me on your journey to Deyja. I have allied with the Rampart town up north, and they stand with me against you. I will take the artifacts from your rotting corpse and return them to Ethric."

You do remember this Jeddite. Not only was he one of Ethric's best students, he was also your best friend. So, he feels guilty for introducing you to Ethric. You will have to find a way use this weakness against him.


Heroes II Sandro is a Necromancer. This is probably no secret to anyone and there is no way the Liche Sandro could have managed to get Ethric's tutelage given how hostile he is to necromancy; while at the same time it is doubtful that he would even want or need such tutelage given how powerful he is already. But there is even more evidence that they are different people in the text about Lord Jabarkas.

Mission 1 wrote:==Old Humanity==
This place looks familiar. You have a hazy memory of bringing a beautiful maiden here several years back, and... your thoughts are interrupted when one of your spies approaches. "Sir, Lord Jabarkas knows you are in the area and is planning to kill you. He has not forgotten you kidnapping his daughter and violating her. He has recruited a large army from another Stronghold in the northeast and plans to attack you shortly."

"Did he make mention of the artifacts?" you ask.

"No, sir."

"Well done. Dismissed."


The fact that Sandro has several years back kidnapped Lord Jabarkas's daughter and raped her, proves that several years back Sandro was not only human but also in Antagarich. This is crucial, because Heroes I/II Sandro would have to at minimum have to have been a Liche for 20+ years which is not exactly *several* years, to cover Heroes I and Heroes II and was in Enroth fighting in the Succession Wars/Price of Loyalty campaign *several* years ago when he is supposed to be in a region of Antagarich raping local orc women.


If Jeddite is right then this means that the ritual that transformed Sandro into a Liche whatever it was happened before the beginning of the first Rise of Necromancer, but given that we already know that during the first two missions Sandro is still at least partly alive, the process of transformation into a Liche must have taken several months.

If Jeddite is wrong, then this means the ritual was performed BETWEEN Mission 2 and Mission 3. Nothing other than Jeddite's comment exists in the first two missions to even suggest that Sandro is anything but completely human.

That there is no mention of the ritual being carried out, suggests that Jeddite is right, but that the process of transformation into a Liche Sandro used was a gradual one, not an instantaneous one.

Given that the Ritual of Endless Night is instantaneous, he cannot have been transformed by that method into a Liche, but by another method that is far more gradual. It is possible that the Heroes V/VI Liches use a related method, because their transformation is also gradual, but they try to avert it's completion by becoming vampires.

We already know there is more than one means of becoming a vampire, you can be transformed by a vampire as happened to the necromancer hero Thant, or you can be transformed by a magical spell as half-happened to Gauldoth Half-Dead. Why must there also be then only one method by which you can become a Liche?
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 29 2010, 17:54

Slayer wrote:What is the program you used to get me that text file?


Wordpad

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 29 2010, 18:16

Corlagon wrote:
Slayer wrote:What is the program you used to get me that text file?


Wordpad


I mean to get the text from the game file.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 29 2010, 18:50

Heroes III campaign and map editors along with Resource Edit 2. As I mentioned to you before, it must take you an awful long time to grab all those screenshots of dialog boxes when you could just extract the text instead.

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 29 2010, 18:56

I can't see why lich can't have feelings towards opposite sex, I mean lich's life itself is simulated through magic.

And Sandro just vaguely remembers his affair with Jabarcas' daughter, it could have taken place many years in the past.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 29 2010, 18:59

XEL II wrote:I can't see why lich can't have feelings towards opposite sex, I mean lich's life itself is simulated through magic.

And Sandro just vaguely remembers his affair with Jabarcas' daughter, it could have taken place many years in the past.


On it's own maybe, but I have far stronger evidence than that if you read my post. Sandro drinks wine while he is compiling his letter.

But I've already stated the reason why it is unlikely, simply because of the attitude shown by Sandro himself and his minions towards it.

It says several years ago, which in the game definition of several certainly means less than 10.

Corlagon wrote:Heroes III campaign and map editors along with Resource Edit 2. As I mentioned to you before, it must take you an awful long time to grab all those screenshots of dialog boxes when you could just extract the text instead.


Except that the map editor cannot access the campaign scenario files.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 29 2010, 19:03

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:On it's own maybe, but I have far stronger evidence than that if you read my post. Sandro drinks wine while he is compiling his letter.

He also drinks wine in Spectre of Power campaign and you can't argue that he is a lich by then, so no big deal here.

And as I said, Sandro only vaguely remembers his affair, so it could be long time ago.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 29 2010, 19:07

Sandro having a drink of wine is hardly anything out of the ordinary. He does the same thing several missions later in Poison Fit For A King while simultaneously commenting on how great it is being a Lich.

You're having a hard time accepting some of the text blurbs because they clash with your notions of how a "Liche" should act and are a little unrealistic considering Sandro's assumed age based on his H1 appearance. That's fine, but it's not a mandate to conjure up the notion of two Sandros on Enroth - simply because this notion has no substance to it. If you sniff around on fansites from the day such as Portals of Might and Magic, Age of Heroes or the web-archived 3DO Community boards, you'll see there was no question then that the Necromancer hero Sandro represented the same individual character from H1-H4 and MM8, and that was back when the HoMM developers at NWC interfaced constantly with fans.

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 29 2010, 19:17

XEL II wrote:On it's own maybe, but I have far stronger evidence than that if you read my post. Sandro drinks wine while he is compiling his letter.

He also drinks wine in Spectre of Power campaign and you can't argue that he is a lich by then, so no big deal here.

And as I said, Sandro only vaguely remembers his affair, so it could be long time ago.[/quote]

His memories are presumably clouded by his undead mind as Jeddite said they would be.

But this must be the memory of his life and he knew Jeddite earlier with his master. Jeddite is referring to his memories of him, which are recent.

Corlagon wrote:Sandro having a drink of wine is hardly anything out of the ordinary. He does the same thing several missions later in Poison Fit For A King while simultaneously commenting on how great it is being a Lich.

You're having a hard time accepting some of the text blurbs because they clash with your notions of how a "Liche" should act and are a little unrealistic considering Sandro's assumed age based on his H1 appearance. That's fine, but it's not a mandate to conjure up the notion of two Sandros on Enroth - simply because this notion has no substance to it. If you sniff around on fansites from the day such as Portals of Might and Magic, Age of Heroes or the web-archived 3DO Community boards, you'll see there was no question then that the Necromancer hero Sandro represented the same individual character from H1-H4 and MM8, and that was back when the HoMM developers at NWC interfaced constantly with fans.


How can a person that is a skeleton drink wine? Unless perhaps he is using some kind of basic magical means similar to how he disguises himself from the dwarves. I guess the liches can use potions in Heroes IV and maybe he could "use" a cup of wine in a similar way.

But even if you are right, he is still not the same Liche as the one in Heroes II, simply because he has whatever his undead status recently become a Necromancer, while he was a Necromancer before if he's the same character as in Heroes II. It only effects the relatively minor question of whether the transformation was instant or gradual.

The characters are clearly separate, because Heroes III Sandro becomes a Necromancer and a Liche clearly, while Heroes II Sandro is already both.
Last edited by Slayer of Cliffracers on Oct 29 2010, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973


Return to “Might and Magic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests