Sandro/Yog/other lore characters discussion

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:12

tress wrote:While such rationalization would give some clarity it is inconsitient with Sandro's bio

Sandro's bio refers to Ethric the Mad who was mage before he became lich.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 16:12

Because it's so obviously a different Ethric and not Ethric the Mad.
BECAUSE HE IS NOT ETHRIC THE MAD AND DIDN'T INVENT LICHES, for gods sake.


While such rationalization would give some clarity it is inconsitient with Sandro's bio -
Sandro first studied Necromancy under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric. Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia, and now serves Finneas Vilmar, leader of the Necromancers of Deyja.


Also like Corlagon said, I am not keen to admit several characters with same names, except rare some like Crag Hack.

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3854
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Postby Avonu » Oct 21 2010, 16:13

tress wrote:Besides if Ethric invented liches, why in the hell he refers to himself as warlock and is pissed towards necromancers? Also why it bothers him only now.

Because storywriters here, in Heroes Chronicles and in HIV didn't checked carefully previous games lore?

tress wrote:Also like Corlagon said, I am not keen to admit several characters with same names, except rare some like Crag Hack.

Alamar, Ethric, Crag Hack, Solmyr and many more names have more then one user.

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:15

Sandro's bio refers to Ethric the Mad who was mage before he became lich. I can't see why Sandro couldn't study Necromancy under lich Ethric's tutelage after he stopped being Warlock apprentice.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 16:16

Alamar, Ethric, Crag Hack, Solmyr and many more names have more then one user.


So Yog and Sandro in Erathia and Enroth are different pers..... *Covering from Corlagon*

Sandro's bio refers to Ethric the Mad who was mage before he became lich. I can't see why Sandro couldn't study Necromancy under lich Ethric's tutelage after he stopped being Warlock apprentice.
So you are saying theory I mentioned in some posts ago a joke is serious theory?
Last edited by Tress on Oct 21 2010, 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3854
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Postby Avonu » Oct 21 2010, 16:19

Yog in MM5 and Yog in Heroes.
Sandro in MM5 and Sandro in Heroes and MM8.
Lord Slayer and Queen Lamanda in MM2 and in HoMM1 (althrough they can be the same persons).
Maximus in MM3 and MM7 and Maximus in HoMM1-2.
TWO Alamars in MM1 and Lord Alamar in HoMM1 and Alamar in H2-3 (althrough he can be from H1).
etc.

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:25

tress wrote:So you are saying theory I mentioned in some posts ago a joke is serious theory?

Why not? It is safe to assume that he studied under Ethric the Mad after running away from his mentor.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 21 2010, 16:26

XEL II wrote:If youi have nothing to say, say nothing, don't troll. Besides, you better acknowledge that CotD does take place after AB and suggested by Adrienne's age and stated in Playing With Fire.


I consider kicking up this discussion again trolling in itself because it's irrelevant to the subject, it's all been said and done six times already in ten threads, and you made your position clear numerous times so why would you even ask for other opinions anyway? My position among other things is that "King of Erathia" means "King of Erathia". Not Regent, not commander-in-chief, not general. We both possess all the facts, have drawn different conclusions, yet the simple truth of the matter (whether you like it or not) is that it isn't confirmed anywhere for either side, so please would you stop implicating that it is for the umpteenth time...

tress wrote:While such rationalization would give some clarity it is inconsitient with Sandro's bio -


What about this plausibility:
The "Master" mission was concurrent with (or took place just after) "Agents of Vengeance", and after Ethric was done sending his messages and Sandro was done kicking him into submission in RotN, he turned him into a subservient Lich.
For a change I don't agree that it's the same Ethric as Ethric the Mad - simply not possible (and I actually do mean not possible here) because Ethric the Mad is a non-Warlock Lich festering in a tomb during Sandro's exploits.

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:30

Corlagon wrote:My position among other things is that "King of Erathia" means "King of Erathia".

Mine too. I think this King is Kendal or new King chosen by him, since clearly takes place after AB. Face it, you have no arguments against it except the King thing and there is a confirmation about the timeline in Playing With Fire, where it says "Young Nighon Overlord wants to be the Queen". Plus, Adrienne's age.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 16:36

The "Master" mission was concurrent with (or took place just after) "Agents of Vengeance", and after Ethric was done sending his messages and Sandro was done kicking him into submission in RotN, he turned him into a subservient Lich.
For a change I don't agree that it's the same Ethric as Ethric the Mad - simply not possible (and I actually do mean not possible here) because Ethric the Mad is a non-Warlock Lich festering in a tomb during Sandro's exploits.


Why not? It is safe to assume that he studied under Ethric the Mad after running away from his mentor.


Both of those are basically playing with words to rationalize obvious plotholes. There is no imaginable force in universe that would convince me that when they initially wrote
wizard, and later the lich
they meant 2 persons or mean lich part after point he ended his learning.Thats playing with semantics. If they wouldnt screw up with SOD to begin with, we wouldnt have to invent second Ethrick since first one would do just fine,even more it would make perfect sense - that powerful lich as Sandro learned from first Lich . And i believe when they wrote it for Homm3 ROE they meant lich inventor Ethrick. This is why I consider SOD highly inconsistent since it needs explanations that borders with absurd.
Last edited by Tress on Oct 21 2010, 16:44, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:40

They obviously mean lich Ethric in the bio and this is no the same Warlock Ethric who was Sandro's mentor.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Macros the Black
Druid
Druid
Posts: 861
Joined: 21 May 2008
Location: Behind you, casting Shrapmetal!

Postby Macros the Black » Oct 21 2010, 16:47

Well, since Ethric was a warlock who discovered how to become a lich, and was serving the Warlocks, perhaps he is only angry at Sandro because he joined the actual Necromancer faction, instead of being a necromancer/lich who served the Warlocks. If you look at it this way, the Necromancer faction was a renegade faction at that time, that existed because some of Ethric's previous followers made their own faction. Does that make sense?
You'd think Darkmoor was a ghost town, but instead there's plenty of life among the dead.

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 16:53

Well, since Ethric was a warlock who discovered how to become a lich, and was serving the Warlocks, perhaps he is only angry at Sandro because he joined the actual Necromancer faction, instead of being a necromancer/lich who served the Warlocks. If you look at it this way, the Necromancer faction was a renegade faction at that time, that existed because some of Ethric's previous followers made their own faction. Does that make sense?


Actually still no, since he is still mortal during Rise to Power campaign unlike mm6 counterpart.

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3854
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Postby Avonu » Oct 21 2010, 16:54

Macros the Black wrote:Well, since Ethric was a warlock who discovered how to become a lich

Ethric the Mad was Sorcerer.

Macros the Black wrote:Does that make sense?

No

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 21 2010, 17:04

XEL II wrote:Face it, you have no arguments against it


I sure have, but you didn't display much interest when I first posted them, so what's the point? You're utterly convinced that you're correct (for whatever real reason I don't know because it barely even affects the series one way or another), so fat chance we can have a reasonable discussion about the matter. I don't know why you're so determined to impose this viewpoint but I'm really not gonna let you get away with posting stuff like "CotD was after AB as confirmed by very vague rumour in Adrienne campaign and King of Erathia, Kreegan problem, Waerjak age problem, Rust Dragon inconsistency all don't exist because I don't like them etc".

Anyway, back on topic. Let's try and break down the subject of Ethric to avoid further confusion.

Before SoD release (1999) we had ONE character named Ethric the Mad. Here were the facts about Ethric the Mad:
- Wizard-turned-Lich
- First Lich on Enroth
- Sandro's former master
- Taught Sandro necromancy
- Went mad
- Currently meandering about in his Tomb out west of Free Haven

After SoD release (2000), we have new facts from a character referred to only as Ethric (never Ethric the Mad) in SoD.
- Warlock
- Hates necromancy
- Still a living human around 1160s AS
- Living in Bracada
- Jeddite's former master

As you can see, some of these facts are completely and utterly irreconcilable if Ethric is the same character! Seems clear that the SoD storywriter screwed up a little, nobody can deny that. It isn't a trainwreck though. What can we do about it?
Let's assume there's two characters named Ethric and apply the relevant facts to each of them, so things are almost fully consistent:

Ethric the Mad
- First Lich on Enroth
- Went mad
- Currently meandering about in his Tomb out west of Free Haven

Ethric of Bracada
- Wizard-turned-Lich
- Warlock
- Hates necromancy
- Sandro learned necromancy *under his tutelage* (he did not necessarily teach or condone this learning)
- Still a living human around 1160s AS
- Living in Bracada
- Sandro's former master
- Jeddite's former master

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 17:42

Corlagon wrote:I sure have

Present them, then.
Coralgon wrote:I'm really not gonna let you get away

I can post whatever I want as long as it doesn't violate this forum's rules and don't need you approval nor you have any right to command me, so don't tell me what to post and what not to post.
Corlagon wrote:"CotD was after AB as confirmed by very vague rumour in Adrienne campaign and King of Erathia, Kreegan problem, Waerjak age problem, Rust Dragon inconsistency all don't exist because I don't like them etc".

Rumor isn't "very vague", it was there to establish that AB campaigns (except for Foolhardy Waywardness) take place in the same time period, there is more than one rumor for each of AB campaigns. Besides, it makes np sense to mention "other female Overlord" while having Mutare and AB. In CotD the only map where we sure that there ARE Kreegans and it's not game mechanics is Map 2, where small bunch of them guards Vial of Dragon's Blood. King of Erathia mentioned is the new king. And what's wrong with Waerjak's age and Rust Dragons?
Corlagon wrote:- Sandro learned necromancy *under his tutelage*

It seems that bio refers to Ethric the Mad.
Last edited by XEL II on Oct 21 2010, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 19:01

Seems clear that the SoD storywriter screwed up a little, nobody can deny that.
Finally you said that, with that admitted I can sleep bit better tonight :). Tough I think it;s not really a little.

XELII wrote:except for Foolhardy Waywardness


Wasnt there references to Foolhardy Waywardness in those rumors as well?

It seems that bio refers to Ethric the Mad.
No doubt about it, but since it would be highly inconsistent that way.....

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 19:35

tress wrote:Wasnt there references to Foolhardy Waywardness in those rumors as well?
There was.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » Oct 21 2010, 20:17

XEL II wrote:nor you have any right to command me, so don't tell me what to post and what not to post


??? Er, XEL, you just did exactly this to me not even one page ago in the post when I mentioned I was leaving the room, ordering me not to object to your infallible theory... what exactly do you expect?
You know something, whatever. I'm probably just getting a little too involved in these increasingly-personal debates over some videogame lore for my own good. Not to mention we've discussed all of this a hundred times already.
I forfeit, you guys post all the conjectural craziness in the world around CH about Kreegans and Ethrics and Kings of Erathia you like in future, and I'll be all humble and quiet and agree that you know it all, and just stop posting clarifications and quotes or answering requests for storyline help or consultation, while sticking to what the games say on my wiki.

User avatar
theLuckyDragon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 4883
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby theLuckyDragon » Oct 22 2010, 3:34

Really, why did I ever think a separate thread would help calm down spirits?!
Please, everybody, tone it down.
"Not all those who wander are lost." -- JRRT


Return to “Might and Magic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests