Sandro/Yog/other lore characters discussion

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 20 2010, 22:05

This is true about those characters, but I really believe Sandro to be one of those that trancends the series.
Yes, weirdly enough he's a warlock-lich in HoMM 1 for some strange reason. But could we say, that the Necromancer's Guild wasn't an established faction at the time of the First War of Succession, and therefore the Necromancers were part of the warlock faction?

But in HoMM II it all falls into place. Sandro is a necromantic lich, and he resumes this role in HoMM 3 and 4. (Yes, there is no doubt that the Sandro in Axeoth is the same as the one in Enroth and Antagarich), as is the case with Gavin Magnus.

Once again, Slayer is wrong.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 20 2010, 22:26

There isn't even any contradiction with the backstory of Sandro of Enroth to begin with - unless you raise an eyebrow at the huge time gap between his apprenticeship and his SoD master plan. But that was acknowledged too, in the same blurb from Agents of Vengeance. SoD notes that his master was a Warlock, that he started out his tuition as a Warlock before going rogue and joining the Necromancers, exactly like Sandro of H1 and 2. I think it is impossible or contrarian at best to say they can't be the same person.

Note that before SoD's scenario writers retconned a new Warlock named Ethric into existence, the Ethric he studied under in his bio was clearly intended to be Ethric the Mad of MM6 - who lived and died in Enroth.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 20 2010, 23:31

Yes, but that also raises the question why Ethric would be mad when Sandro joined the Necromancers, as he himself would do this later on.
And (according to MM6) wasn't Ethric the first to complete the Ritual of the Endless Night, or was that Terrax?

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Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 7:36

Corlagon wrote:Note that before SoD's scenario writers retconned a new Warlock named Ethric into existence, the Ethric he studied under in his bio was clearly intended to be Ethric the Mad of MM6 - who lived and died in Enroth.

Actually whole Etric thing is quite odd to say least. Ok, lets consider he was a lich and warlock during homm1 under tutelage of Etric(even though according to mm6 lich rittual was designed later and by Ethric (who might or might not be same person, both explanations have its flaws) and who is supposedly the first lich in the world). In homm 2 he is already Necromancer(logically because he fits there more and homm didn't had necro faction). But apparently serving under Archibald, doesnt bother Etrick in least, even more considering Etric was Lich himself during Sandros apprenticeship according to Sandro's bio, not to mention fact he is not lich during SOD campaign(although he should be).

Sandro first studied Necromancy under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric. Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia, and now serves Finneas Vilmar, leader of the Necromancers of Deyja.


According to this, guy we meet at "Master" should be Lich, even more Lich warlocks should be rare or close to non- existent to say least. Unless we write this whole thing down because he was mad, so stalking Sandro at this point is irrational action of madmen, that of course still doesn't explain why he is still warlock and with Ajit's(apparently human./mortal) face.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 21 2010, 9:22

I think it's been quite well established that Sandro isn't a human in HoMM3, which the game never states him to be.

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Postby Avonu » Oct 21 2010, 9:30

Secret_Holder wrote:And (according to MM6) wasn't Ethric the first to complete the Ritual of the Endless Night, or was that Terrax?


Ethric:
Image
Terrax "discovered" Mirrored Path (Light and Dark Magic, both used also by archmages). However, there are rumours that Terrax too became lich and (un)lived in Castle Darkmoor (Lich King there can be him). But they are only rumours from NPCs in game.

Marzhin wrote:- in M&M 5, on Xeen, there's Sandro, a Lich NPC who looks like a mummy.

Not really. When he attack you (for example: after taking quest from him and speaking again before complete it), he is floating skull (that how liches looks in MM5).

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 21 2010, 12:33

Well this gives some credibility to the theory, that the Necromancer's Guild wasn't that well established (if at all) during Morglin Ironfiststime, which cold mean there was an alliance between Warlocks and Necromancers.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 12:45

Heroes from HoMM1-2 who weren't given backstory in later games (i.e. Maximus, Kastore, etc.) are seemingly non-canon. Ethric from SoD is clearly not Ethric the Mad.
Not really. When he attack you (for example: after taking quest from him and speaking again before complete it), he is floating skull (that how liches looks in MM5).

Actually his portait looks mummish, he looks like a floating skull due to gameplay using general lich model. Lich on XEEN can also look differently.
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Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 13:19

Ethric from SoD is clearly not Ethric the Mad.
So there is characters with same names in homm..... Personally I believe that at least initially Etric was meant as Etric the mad, since according to Sandro bio he should be lich just like certain Etric the mad fellow, Unless of course Sandro had two mentors that both were Etrick's , just SOD writers allowed such inconsistency to be. Whats more interesting Jeddite claims that he led Sandro to Ethric that once again creates temporal paradox or at least plot hole. Perosnally I have feeling that AB had much higher quality story wise, while SOD have too many obvious pot holes in their struggle to make references with past games.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 14:50

Sandro coould have been studying Necromancy with Ethric the Mad during his time in Enroth. And there is nothing inconsistent in Jeddite leading Sandro to Ethric, I just can't see why you think so.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 21 2010, 15:36

tress wrote:Whats more interesting Jeddite claims that he led Sandro to Ethric that once again creates temporal paradox or at least plot hole


???
Explain how?

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Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 15:46

Considering Sandro is lich during homm1 and considering Ethrick is lich no #1, then his apprenticeship started prior to homm1, and to be consistent with such fact and Sandro's bio it must make Jeddite older than most heroes, even though nothing is mentioned of his age(and he clearly is human), even more considering he appears in homm4. It makes Sandro, the lich the same age as Jeddite, what is quite odd.
Of course that still doesnt answer why Etrick appears as human in SOD, and Sadro doesnt makes any remarks to his lichism.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 15:52

Another interesting question is who was the King of Erathia who ruled during CotD. Was it Morgan Kendal or other person he chose to rule?
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 21 2010, 15:53

It's just like you said, nothing is ever mentioned about Jeddite's age anywhere at any time whatsoever. I mean the term "inconsistency" usually means something that contradicts the established lore, it isn't applicable to everything that's even mildly odd in the game...
Plus keep in mind that that guy in your avatar is also a Warlock and should be somewhere in his 80s or over by H3, if he's the same fellow from H1 ;)

XEL II wrote:Another interesting question is who was the King of Erathia who ruled during CotD


*walks out*
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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 15:53

tress wrote:Of course that still doesnt answer why Etrick appears as human in SOD

Because it's so obviously a different Ethric and not Ethric the Mad.
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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 21 2010, 15:58

Does Ethric appear in Rise of the Necromancer? :|

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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:03

He does in Map 2. He is Warlock mentor and Bracadian Wizard.
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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:07

Corlagon wrote:*walks out*

If youi have nothing to say, say nothing, don't troll. Besides, you better acknowledge that CotD does take place after AB and suggested by Adrienne's age and stated in Playing With Fire.
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Postby Tress » Oct 21 2010, 16:07

Corlagon wrote:It's just like you said, nothing is ever mentioned about Jeddite's age anywhere at any time whatsoever. I mean the term "inconsistency" usually means something that contradicts the established lore, it isn't applicable to everything that's even mildly odd in the game...
Plus keep in mind that that guy in your avatar is also a Warlock and should be somewhere in his 80s or over by H3, if he's the same fellow from H1 ;)


Well anyway it would make Jeddite well over 100 years old, considering, Sandro(and thus) Ethrick was lich by h1.Also Alamar looks less human to me(yellow skin/burning eyes and also he was warlock lord that could count for something, though must agree that it isnt any proof) than Jeddite(although his eyes is burning too), also he doesn't appear in homm4, thus at least not placing him on second century.
Besides if Ethric invented liches, why in the hell he refers to himself as warlock and is pissed towards necromancers? Also why it bothers him only now.

Does Ethric appear in Rise of the Necromancer?
He sure does, commanding dungeon town and with Ajits face.
Last edited by Tress on Oct 21 2010, 16:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 21 2010, 16:10

tress wrote:Besides if Ethric invented liches, why in the hell he refers to himself as warlock and is pissed towards necromancers?

BECAUSE HE IS NOT ETHRIC THE MAD AND DIDN'T INVENT LICHES, for god's sake.
Last edited by XEL II on Oct 21 2010, 16:13, edited 1 time in total.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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