Sandro/Yog/other lore characters discussion

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 19 2010, 18:39

Question everything at will as far as I'm concerned. I'm not trying to herald the easiest explanation, just the verifiable explanation.

I don't think I mentioned anything here about BotB's chronology? The "before Heroes I" idea is actually impossible, because Boragus came to power 30 years before his death in AB and Heroes I is over 45 years before AB begins, so his appearance as Duke of Krewlod would be anachronistic.
Could've been a crackpot explanation of mine ages ago, I'm not sure, but I don't believe it any more.

Yog as a Barbarian instead of a Wizard in H1 is your only inconsistency, and big deal, that can be handwaved by any number of explanations: it was before his tuition in Bracada began, whatever :P - but it's not credible to use something minor like that to construe that the blue guy in Heroes III who spent time in Enroth is actually a totally different character with the same name, class and wacky appearance unless that's confirmable (i.e. the Nicolai of Ashan can't be Nicolai Ironfist).

Regarding your examples. Be careful - notice that I said "in the HoMM games" - I-IV obviously. MM3/7 are exempt ;)

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Postby XEL II » Oct 19 2010, 19:10

Actually, we don;t know when exactly Duke Boragus becoame ruler of Krewold. He could have risen to power before the previous Festival of Life and remain the ruler after it, or after the Festival.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 19 2010, 19:17

Custom bio in For the Throne wrote:Duke Winston Boragus grew to fame after single handedly slaying the Chieftain (and the Chieftain's guards) of his village. He quickly united other tribes under his through brutality and a quick wit. Shortly after his rise to power he easily won the Festival of Life thirty years ago. Duke Boragus has an affinity for controlling ogres in battle so gets a bonus with them.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 19 2010, 20:13

Yes, forgot about that.

By the way, Enrtohian Crag Hack appears to be around 60 in HoMM4.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 20 2010, 10:39

Corlagon wrote:Yog as a Barbarian instead of a Wizard in H1 is your only inconsistency, and big deal, that can be handwaved by any number of explanations: it was before his tuition in Bracada began, whatever :P - but it's not credible to use something minor like that to construe that the blue guy in Heroes III who spent time in Enroth is actually a totally different character with the same name, class and wacky appearance unless that's confirmable (i.e. the Nicolai of Ashan can't be Nicolai Ironfist).

Regarding your examples. Be careful - notice that I said "in the HoMM games" - I-IV obviously. MM3/7 are exempt ;)


Well Yog appears as a character along with Sandro in both Heroes I and Heroes II. We have no reason to assume that the Sandro and Yog of those two games are any different. We know that the Sandro of Heroes III and later Heroes IV and Heroes V are a different character.

We also know that Gem and Crag Hack *are* the same characters as their Heroes II/I versions because their Enroth-continent past is specifically eluded too.

The game designers had clearly decided that Gem and Crag Hack came from Enroth, they had decided that Sandro would be a different Sandro.

The lack of any reference to Enroth and the succession wars in his background, any "I was happier as a barbarian so I will rejoin my people,", means that based upon lack of evidence specifically where evidence is to be expected, there is a proof that the Heroes Yog is not the same character either.

It is strange that if he had two games behind him, he would not mention and regret his decision to join the wizards. He mentions it was to "please his mother" which suggests that he is a young man or boy.

Corlagon wrote:Yog:
==Gem: Yog and Crag==
Today I received word from Gelu about a pair of Barbarians attacking Deyja from the Contested Lands. To my surprise, an hour later some of my Elven scouts escorted in some Orc spies with a message for me. It was from a blue Barbarian hero named Yog. Hmm, I met him once in Enroth.


While there is no reference to Yog being a Barbarian before he joined the wizards, there is a reference to Yog's barbarian father.

The logical explanation is that his barbarian father *is* the Yog of Heroes II/I, this would explain why they look similar and have the same name.

Gem has met (probably fought) that Yog and arrives at the mistaken conclusion that she is facing that Yog rather than his son, which she does not know about yet.

This must be the case since something as major as several decades in as a barbarian in Enroth would not avoid mention when he is lamenting his life in the Academy. He would be asking "why did I make that mistake" not "the blood of my barbarian father".
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Postby XEL II » Oct 20 2010, 11:18

I can't see why Yog couldn't be very young in HoMM1. And the idea of HoMM1 Yog being Yog's father makes no sense, because he is a half-genie who has genie mother.

By the way, Yog isn't in HoMM2.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 20 2010, 13:03

@Slayer you obviously haven't read the previous page and a half where we established these two characters were indeed in Enroth prior to SoD. "We know" is a fairly inaccurate pronoun for your post's purposes - speak for yourself. Again with assuming that characters and dialogue are wrong or incorrect - Gem this time - to suit your theory, where there's no such implication at all. Moreover, you'll find that he wasn't even in Heroes II ;)

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 20 2010, 13:15

Corlagon wrote:@Slayer you obviously haven't read the previous page and a half where we established these two characters were indeed in Enroth prior to SoD. "We know" is a fairly inaccurate pronoun for your post's purposes - speak for yourself. Again with assuming that characters and dialogue are wrong or incorrect - Gem this time - to suit your theory, where there's no such implication at all.


We KNOW that Sandro was not in Enroth because we KNOW that he is human during the early part of the Shadow of Death Campaign as we KNOW that he is still in the process of becoming a Liche during the early part of the first Sandro POV campaign.

The only question here is the status of Yog, the question of Sandro is settled utterly.

Corlagon wrote:Moreover, you'll find that he wasn't even in Heroes II wink


I've got Heroes II and a Liche called Sandro is clearly a Necromancer hero in that game. In Heroes I he was a Liche, but a Warlock not a Necromancer.


XEL II wrote:I can't see why Yog couldn't be very young in HoMM1. And the idea of HoMM1 Yog being Yog's father makes no sense, because he is a half-genie who has genie mother.

By the way, Yog isn't in HoMM2.


Wrong again, Yog is in Heroes II.

You do have a point, but nobody knows how much genie blood was in his father (Heroes I/II Yog). And we also don't know if Yog (father) is actually 3/4 human and 1/4 genie and Yog's mother is 100% genie.

This would make Yog (son) 50% genie and 50% human.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 20 2010, 13:22

Image

Slayer of Cliffraces wrote:Wrong again, Yog is in Heroes II.


:lolu:

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 20 2010, 13:27

Corlagon wrote:Image


Yes because by the end of the first Sandro campaign when you use that hero, he is a Liche.

The majority of the time he is human before you play with that character.

Would I make this up? It's just what it says during the first Sandro POV campaign.
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Postby Tress » Oct 20 2010, 13:32

Corlagon wrote:two characters were indeed in Enroth prior to SoD
Actually that is only one mention. that may as well be just mistake on Gem's part, or on authors part(that actually is most likely IMO)
Corlagon wrote:Could've been a crackpot explanation of mine ages ago, I'm not sure, but I don't believe it any more.

Well not sure who wrote this but it is one of rationalizations on wiki site
That said, taking into account the fact that he was active in the First Succession War, Yog would have had to be over 70 years old upon leaving the academy. While this is possible
Speaking of which apperances of characters like Lord Haart seems rather odd too, since in homm 3 he is rather young according to his portrait.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:While there is no reference to Yog being a Barbarian before he joined the wizards, there is a reference to Yog's barbarian father.
Actually I have yet to see that reference you mention. Also even if we theoretically assume he might be his father, then that still doesnt make sense, since blue skin is due to his half genie heritage, unless his father had serious rum drinking problem and was with totally wasted liver that made his face blue.
Corlagon wrote:Yog as a Barbarian instead of a Wizard in H1 is your only inconsistency, and big deal, that can be handwaved by any number of explanations: it was before his tuition in Bracada began, whatever
Actually it cant be that easy,
1 - he mentions he studied in Bracada all his life, so he cant be barbarian from start.
2. Given time frame of campaings he couldn't have been in Enroth at time Gem was there, if we consider Vidomnias apperance as argument
That is actually one of the inconsistencies I see in SOD campaings. I have yet to start my problems with Sandro that half of which actually hardly makes sense,

Corlagon wrote:something minor like that to construe that
Actually I consider it less minor than one sentence with "hmm" attached from Gem. Just similarly we cant 100% place Yog at Enroth because of 4 unsure words from Gem.Besides she was one quite disturbed lady according to new beginning campaign, so just as well she might be delusional(she needed professional help in form of FA tent after all), so comparing to Mr Hack, I am unsure who have lost more marbles, besides I am sure most barbarians look same to her.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The majority of the time he is human before you play with that character.
Actually that page says lich, and I don't see where it would be mentioned that he was human just lately.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 20 2010, 13:33

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It's just what it says during the first Sandro POV campaign.


I'll bite. Go ahead and find a quote from the "first Sandro POV campaign" (Rise of the Necromancer) saying Sandro's human at that point.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 20 2010, 13:44

Slayer, can't you see that it says that Sandro is lich with his "human" portait? And the same portait is used in the mission where he disguises himself with illusion.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » Oct 20 2010, 13:47

tress, Yog might well have visited Enroth during his study in Bracada. Besides, he most likely have connections with his barbarian father.
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Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Tress » Oct 20 2010, 13:51

XELII wrote:tress, Yog might visit Enroth during his study in Bracada. Besides, he most likely have connections with his barbarian father


That is actually explanation that actually would make sense, hoverer he would have to be wizard by that time, whil Gem comments on him as barbarian, and does not comment on his change of heart. Also that still doesnt explain his apperance in HOMM1 if we consider it a canon.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Wrong again, Yog is in Heroes II.
Mind linking to or giving SS of him, since only blue guy in HOMM2 is Zom that is necromancer, and most certainlly there is no hero with name Yog.
P.S is it me or Slayers theories gets progressively more pulled of from common sense and canon?

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Postby XEL II » Oct 20 2010, 14:05

Yog has always been a warrior as he comments in BotB and character class is but a game mechanics detail.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 20 2010, 18:18

XEL II wrote:By the way, Yog isn't in HoMM2.


Indeed, but Jezebel is quite clearly yet another human-genie hybrid and who knows what is the original skin color of Jacylin. Lights are playing tricks on her face. And even more i wonder whether in 12-15 years someone is still discussing the details of MMH6 graphics as we discuss the look of a H1 hero now?
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Postby XEL II » Oct 20 2010, 19:05

I suggest moving this thread to Might and Magic section.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Pol » Oct 20 2010, 19:09

I like that suggestion. ;)
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Postby Marzhin » Oct 20 2010, 21:39

One thing that's important to keep in mind about the Might & Magic universe, is the fact characters have several incarnations on different worlds.

For instance Crag Hack:
- in M&M1, on the world of Varn, there's a barbarian named "Crag the Hack"
- in M&M3, on the world of Terra, there's a barbarian named "Crag Hack" who is a dwarf and could be the same guy - or not
- in Heroes 1 & 2, we have the Crag Hack of Enroth, who has the same portrait as the M&M3 Crag Hack but is a human.
- in Heroes 3 & 4 we still have the Crag Hack of Enroth, but his portrait has become more human and less dwarvish.
- Not to mention the fact the M&M3 Crag Hack (the dwarf) arrives in Erathia so there's basically two different Crag Hacks cohabiting on Enroth at that time :D
So we have at least 2, possibly 3 Crag Hacks in the M&M universe, and one more if you count the Crag Hack of Ashan who is mentioned in Heroes V :)

Same thing for Sandro:
- in M&M 5, on Xeen, there's Sandro, a Lich NPC who looks like a mummy.
- in Heroes 1, you have Sandro as a Warlock-Lich.
- in Heroes 2 & 3, Sandro is a Necromancer... (I do believe there's only one Sandro on Enroth though. NWC retconned his backstory a little bit, but that doesn't make him two different guys).

And Yog :
- in M&M 5 there's barbarian called Yog on Xeen, member of a whole race of blue-skinned barbarians.
- This character was reused as the Yog of Enroth, then he was given a different backstory in Heroes III SoD, and so on...

Then you have even trickier examples, like Maximus :
- Maximus appears on Terra in M&M3 as a Half-Orc Knight.
- A hero bearing his name and likeness appears in Heroes 1 & 2 in the Castle faction, so he's one of the "good guys".
- Then in Might & Magic 7 the Maximus of Terra arrives on Enroth and is one of the Evil advisors :wall:

We can go on with Zom, Zam, Kalindra, Sarakin, Alamar... :tongue:


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