Sandro/Yog/other lore characters discussion

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Unread postby XEL II » 29 Oct 2010, 19:20

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:How can a person that is a skeleton drink wine?
You better ask JVC about this :)
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:But even if you are right, he is still not the same Liche as the one in Heroes II, simply because he has whatever his undead status recently become a Necromancer, while he was a Necromancer before if he's the same character as in Heroes II.
We don't know exactly when Sandro became Necromancer and it is stated in Agents of Vengeance that he was Ethric's apprentice decades ago.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 29 Oct 2010, 19:40

XEL II wrote: You better ask JVC about this smile
I suppose it's the same way as they see, touch and hear. :) :) :)
XEL II wrote: We don't know exactly when Sandro became Necromancer and it is stated in Agents of Vengeance that he was Ethric's apprentice decades ago.
If he was Ethrics apprentice decades ago this completely rules out them being the same character.

We know when Sandro openly became a Necromancer, which is when he ran away from Ethric. He practiced Necromancy presumably in secret before then, which is why he can trick Gem and Crag Hack so easily. But fighting in the Succession Wars as a Necromancer is NOT secret.

That is indeed the best argument against them being the same character. Sandro is able to trick those characters because he evidently NOT the same person as the Heroes II/I Sandro.

He's just a young apprentice wizard who happens to share the same name as the famous Necromancer. I rather doubt that if he was in any respect the same character the likes of Gem would have been fooled.

Given Ethric's evident hatred of Necromancy, there is little chance the Heroes II Sandro could have become his apprentice. Just like with the Yog story, continuity completely goes against the plot.

If there were no Sandro POV campaigns one could presumably claim that Sandro was just pretending to be a different person, but why did he continue to use his own name. He would use an alias, a false identity, unless it's some kind of hiding in plain sight ruse which I guess is possible (if I was an evil liche called Sandro in disguise why would I call myself Sandro).

But it doesn't say in any Sandro POV campaign, "hey I fooled everyone I'm really Sandro the liche from Enroth, having got the items I've now decided to blow my cover and take over the world".
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Unread postby Corlagon » 29 Oct 2010, 19:48

You are confusing vagueness with inconsistency, and that is a very serious mistake. There is not even a single scrap of text here, there or anywhere saying that Sandro (of H3) became a Necromancer recently or even addressing the query of when he became one to begin with - even though that is the impression you walked away with, it is just not stated outright and therefore you are "putting words in the game's mouth". Ethric wants to eliminate Sandro - who says he hasn't been trying to do so for decades? Additionally if you speak to Sandro in MM8, notice that he comments on how he "gave up maintenance of the flesh" aeons ago - whereas the Shadow of Death campaigns occurred only roughly less than 10 years prior to the game.
Slayer wrote:He's just a young apprentice wizard
Did you miss out on the entire Unholy Alliance campaign? The wizard's apprentice stuff was a pack of lies.

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Unread postby Macros the Black » 29 Oct 2010, 22:29

Slayer,

I find it odd that while you're so eager to point out Sandro's odd behavior for an undead you completely skip over the fact that a Zombie and a Skeleton were having a conversation. Think about that for a second - even more peculiar, the skeleton was making fun of his (it's?) master.
Well, if that can happen, then there's no reason Sandro couldn't be drinking wine as a Lich either or fall in love with a beautiful girl simply because she is beautiful. Regardless of the circumstances. Which would explain his caution all the more, as he knows nothing can come of it.

By the way, from Might and Magic 7 we know that Deyjan necromancers become Liches by performing a ritual which places their organs and soul in a jar which they must keep on them at all times. It's not gradual because no time passes for this to happen. If it was gradual, I assume the person would die before the transformation was completed - it's quite difficult to stay alive without organs after all. And yes, this IS the only way they know of* because when they loose their supply of Lich Jars during the game they cannot perform the ritual, as evident by the main quest line where the Light side has you stealing the Lich Jars from Deyja while the Dark side has you stealing Lich Jars from Nighon, because the Warlocks refused to supply them.

*They may know about the Ritual of the Endless Night if Sandro (if he is the same Sandro as Heroes 1 and 2) told them about it, but without the book they can't perform that either.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 30 Oct 2010, 16:14

Corlagon wrote:You are confusing vagueness with inconsistency, and that is a very serious mistake. There is not even a single scrap of text here, there or anywhere saying that Sandro (of H3) became a Necromancer recently or even addressing the query of when he became one to begin with - even though that is the impression you walked away with, it is just not stated outright and therefore you are "putting words in the game's mouth". Ethric wants to eliminate Sandro - who says he hasn't been trying to do so for decades? Additionally if you speak to Sandro in MM8, notice that he comments on how he "gave up maintenance of the flesh" aeons ago - whereas the Shadow of Death campaigns occurred only roughly less than 10 years prior to the game.
Slayer wrote:He's just a young apprentice wizard
Did you miss out on the entire Unholy Alliance campaign? The wizard's apprentice stuff was a pack of lies.
The only way for Sandro to be the same character as his Heroes I/II self is for Sandro to be carrying out an elaborate cover story involving disguising himself by illusory methods (which we know he has) as a human for a lengthy period of time.

There is no specific scrap of text to back up such a complicated conspiracy being carried out by the Heroes II/I Sandro (if there is I want to see it!) and there is a specific piece of text to establish that Sandro has recently become a Necromancer. Why the double standards Corlagon? Why do I have to provide specific references for everything why you are able to make huge claims about Sandro's past which are backed up with nothing and directly contradict several statements, including this one.
Rise of the Necromancer Mission 1 wrote: Sandro:
"It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally tracked me down. He hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer and wants to remove the blight from his career. Ethric is no fool. He spread word of my location to those who would stop me. It does not matter. I will defeat these fools, soundly beat my master and continue on to Deyja, where they will appreciate my talents."
This is a statement from Sandros own POV. It says that Sandro has become a Necromancer and Ethric and his old master is unhappy about this because it is a blight on his career. This is a canonical statement as to his motives Corlagon.

If Sandro was simply pretending to be a apprentice Warlock (which must be so if they are the same character) then it would not say Sandro became a Necromancer.

It would say "he realized that I was an Ancient Necromancer and Liche from Enroth and had tricked him".

Sandro is Might and Magic VIII, well firstly could he not be the original Sandro from Heroes I/II. Assuming that you have references from him to the events in Heroes III, then could not he not be making a imprecise statement based upon the way that the several years "feels" like eons. If that is untrue, then there is the following statement from Jeddite.
Rise of the Necromancer Mission 1 wrote: My name is Jeddite. Perhaps you remember me, if your memories are not clouded by your undead mind. We were students together under Ethric. By becoming a Necromancer, you have completely shamed me, for it was I who introduced you to Ethric. I should have listened to him. From the start, he doubted your ability to wisely endure the burden of magical knowledge.
As Jeddite is aware, the process of becoming a liche clouds the memories of your life as who you were when you were alive and what you did. It could be that he is no longer aware of when he became a Liche, because he no longer remembers he then assumes that it is eons ago.

There are three possible ways then to explain the eons ago statement.

Macros the Black wrote: Slayer,

I find it odd that while you're so eager to point out Sandro's odd behavior for an undead you completely skip over the fact that a Zombie and a Skeleton were having a conversation. Think about that for a second - even more peculiar, the skeleton was making fun of his (it's?) master.
Well, if that can happen, then there's no reason Sandro couldn't be drinking wine as a Lich either or fall in love with a beautiful girl simply because she is beautiful. Regardless of the circumstances. Which would explain his caution all the more, as he knows nothing can come of it.

By the way, from Might and Magic 7 we know that Deyjan necromancers become Liches by performing a ritual which places their organs and soul in a jar which they must keep on them at all times. It's not gradual because no time passes for this to happen. If it was gradual, I assume the person would die before the transformation was completed - it's quite difficult to stay alive without organs after all. And yes, this IS the only way they know of* because when they loose their supply of Lich Jars during the game they cannot perform the ritual, as evident by the main quest line where the Light side has you stealing the Lich Jars from Deyja while the Dark side has you stealing Lich Jars from Nighon, because the Warlocks refused to supply them.

*They may know about the Ritual of the Endless Night if Sandro (if he is the same Sandro as Heroes 1 and 2) told them about it, but without the book they can't perform that either.
Gauldoth Half-Dead has conversations with undead creatures all the time in Heroes IV. In the Might and Magic universe lesser undead (skeletons and zombies) are a lot more than just mindless puppets, they are enslaved souls which a trapped in a state of perpetual slavery and suffering by virtue of their existence. This is why necromancy is considered so evil.

They cannot directly disobey their creators, but can communicate freely unless they are forbidden to talk about something, which Sandro does to his skeletons and zombies.

The situation with Vidomina and Sandro, assuming Sandro is already a Liche is itself pretty much a case of Mars Need Women but it gets even worse when you read the actual text.
Rise of the Necromancer Mission 2 wrote: ==First Lesson==
Vidomina continues to demonstrate great talent and dedication to becoming a Necromancer. Having spent the day conferring with your advisors, you were not available to tutor today, but in the evening you check upon her studies. As you watch her practice incantations under the moonlight, you realize that she is also quite beautiful. Suddenly her eyes meet yours and she smiles warmly. You turn away, slightly ashamed for the momentary indulgence. Necromancers are not supposed to have such feelings!

Vidomina walks over and places her hand on your shoulder. "Good evening, Master. It is good to see you. I missed your company today-"

You brush her hand away. "Your first lesson for this evening: do not be so familiar with me. Necromancers must constantly deal in death, and it is wise to remain distant to those around you, even your mentors."

"Yes, Master," Vidomina replies sheepishly.

"Now for your second lesson. Do not place too much trust in other people, especially the living. All day long my advisors have been providing information about this land we journey through, but I worry that I have grown to rely on them too much. I need you to go forth and bring me your own impressions of our situation. Discover how powerful our enemies are, how many troops they have, and what kind of magic they use. The last four towns I encountered were quite easy to defeat, but I do not wish to fall into the trap of being over-confident. I need a fresh pair of eyes to appraise what lies before us. Now go!"

As you watch Vidomina ride off on her first lone excursion, you can't decide whether to feel relief or apprehension.
Not only does Sandro desire Vidomina but Vidomina desires Sandro. This must be a version of Beast and Beauty by which the beauty (Vidomina) desires the ugly beast (the liche Sandro).

The beast (skeletal figure) Sandro, is rejecting the love of the beauty Vidomina (beautiful woman) and his own Mars need Women love of Vidomina. He then goes on to effectively lecture Vidomina on the evils of love.

It is clear that Sandro is a Liche and obviously completely so by the beginning of Rise of the Necromancer Mission 3, but nothing definitely says he is a Liche, except for Jeddites claiming that his memory of him might be clouded by his undead mind.

The transformation if it happened instantaneously must have happened between Mission 2 and Mission 3. For evidence of why this must be so, one must only look at Sandros portrait once he has finished his transformation into a Liche.

Image

Would Vidomina really flirt with such an extreme version of the beast? Would she really put her hand on his shoulder (or shoulder bone). So hideous is Sandro, the Beast and Beauty situation is now insanely strong, improbably so. The transformation must have been gradual if Sandro can still be attractive to Vidomina in Mission 2 while he is bones by Mission 3.

I do not however claim to know the exact method by which the transformation of Sandro into a Liche happened. If Jeddite is right, Sandro is already a Liche at the beginning of the campaign, which means the transformation into the pinnacle of beauty that is Sandro was definitely a gradual one.

Having no reason to doubt Jeddite's claim and bolstered by the lack of any reference to the transformation into a Liche of Sandro, I shall reckon that Sandro has become a Liche by the beginning of the campaign but that the method of transformation is gradual.

Since the Jars you refer to evidently carry out an instantaneous transformation into a Liche, he must have used a different method, a far slower method. Which may be related to the method used in Heroes V/VI.

Consider that the Necromancers lost the ability to field armies of Liches between Heroes III and Heroes IV, yet Liches exist in Axeoth (Baron von Tarquin) that were on Axeoth before the Reckoning.

The Jars are important not because you cannot possibly create Liches without the Jars, but because the other methods are slow it would be impossible to field large numbers of Liches and thus not economically efficient to create Liches en-mass for military purposes at all.

Think of it, for a Necromancer trying to rapidly create an army of Liches from captured wizards and priests, is it not preferable to have a means of instantaneously creating Liches rather than a method that takes many months.

Perhaps Liches created by other means necessarily have Free-Will, which is an undesirable trait in Necromancy-land when you are using your former enemies dead to create Liches for your armies.
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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Oct 2010, 17:16

Liches do have glowing imitation of eyes.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 30 Oct 2010, 17:17

I can't understand why you're still arguing about this.
You can say "Sandro of H3 is clearly not the Sandro of H1/H2" a hundred times, but all that amounts to is argumentum ad nauseam. Did TVTropes ruin your life or something? :D

So anyway, enough joking around. Let's look at the indications that he is the same person from H1 to H4...

- He was initiated into magic as a young man by Jeddite the Warlock, training under Ethric the Warlock - lo and behold, Sandro was a Warlock hero in Heroes I. What a coincidence.
- He's been all over Enroth ("Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia...") - lo and behold, Heroes I and II are set in Enroth and Sandro is present. Fantastic.
- Sandro hasn't been Ethric's apprentice for a few decades, and became a Necromancer when he went rogue - lo and behold, Heroes I took place over three decades ago and Sandro became a Necromancer between games. Outstanding.
- Sandro is a Lich in Heroes III, from beginning to end, according to the official manuals and campaign dialogues. Sandro of H1 and H2 is also a Lich. Wow.
- Even if there were two Sandros on the planet, what happened to the one from H1/H2? In H4 there's only one, Gauldoth even comments on his notoriety and it's said he had a network of power throughout the old world.
- On top of the above, a Ubisoft employee said here in this thread that he believes it's all one Sandro on Enroth, alongside everyone else except yourself.

And even faced with all this, you're still arguing the opposite corner as vehemently as anything I've ever seen, like you really badly want them to be two totally different heroes, despite claiming somewhere or other that you "want" them to be the same character and are even more frustrated about the "facts" than I am.
Slayer wrote:There is no specific scrap of text to back up such a complicated conspiracy being carried out by the Heroes II/I Sandro (if there is I want to see it!)
Image
Slayer wrote:you are able to make huge claims about Sandro's past which are backed up with nothing
I'd be glad if you'd try a little harder to avoid the ad hominem attacks and accusations of falsity as though I'm the one trying to delude you on basic facts, and instead back up your own argument properly, since I'm just trying to help you get your facts straight here - even though I've known from the beginning that your position couldn't be proven right on this since I've had access to all those texts for years, and read over them all again and again before posting here in the first place. Inversely you admitted that you haven't played the campaign in a long time.

So far the main impetus of your position, since we dealt with the "I don't get why skeletons drink wine so the story is wrong" and "Sandro is clearly human so the story is wrong" stuff, amounts to: Sandro is clearly not Heroes I/II Sandro because the story says he became a Necromancer recently.

Hold onto your horses - no, it doesn't say that at all.

Let's examine everything relevant to the topic of Ethric getting angry about Sandro becoming a Necromancer:
Target wrote:It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally tracked me down. He hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer and wants to remove the blight from his career.
Target wrote:Your plans to take over Deyja can now commence! Ethric, your old master, became furious when he received word you became a Necromancer. When he learns about your plans with these two artifacts, he will be absolutely livid!
Agents of Vengeance wrote:I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer!
Where did these texts say Sandro became a Necromancer recently? Do they specifically say when he became a Necromancer at all? No, they didn't. The only clue at all is the fact that they refer to him becoming a Necromancer in the past tense.
Try looking at them more closely: "Ethric has finally tracked me down" (i.e. it took Ethric a while to find him? Maybe?).

And more importantly, "it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice". That proves to me that Sandro could only have become a Necromancer decades ago, around the time of Heroes I, because his bio already said nice and plainly that he first started studying necromancy while he was still under Ethric's tutelage.

Just remember what I already pointed out to you about subtlety before you reply with the same old "Sandro of H3 is clearly not H1/H2 Sandro" stuff, because the only thing that's very clear to me is the fact you haven't played the campaigns in a while, or paid close enough attention.

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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Oct 2010, 17:32

Actually, Sandro's bio obviously refers to Ethric the Mad (since Ethric of Bracada hasn't been invented yet when the bio was written). Sandro could nicely study Necromancy under Ethric the Mad's tutelage after running away from his master.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 30 Oct 2010, 17:43

That's just totally convoluted. Bringing both Ethrics into Sandro's story doesn't make any sense in the context of The Shadow of Death. Nowhere is it said he ever studied under Ethric the Mad, just Ethric the Warlock.

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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Oct 2010, 17:48

Ethric the Mad was the wizard and later lich. And 'Ethric' mentioned in Sandro's bio taught Sandro Necromancy, so it's obviously not Ethric of Bracada. Having both Ethrics n Sandro's story is no big deal.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 30 Oct 2010, 17:54

Read it again. It isn't said conclusively that he taught Sandro necromancy. It's said he studied necromancy under his tutelage.
That can be interpreted two ways:

1) Ethric was Sandro's tutor and taught him necromancy (Greg Fulton's original intention)
2) Sandro studied necromancy WHILE Ethric was his tutor (the SoD writer's intention)

Whereas Ethric the Mad has nothing to do with Sandro's story as far as TSoD says, so as far as we know, he didn't.
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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Oct 2010, 17:59

It doesn't say anything about "while". "Under his tutelage" has pretty obviousl meaning, son't you think. To study something under someone tutelage means that this someone teachs you this thing.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 30 Oct 2010, 22:04

Corlagon wrote: So anyway, enough joking around. Let's look at the indications that he is the same person from H1 to H4...

- He was initiated into magic as a young man by Jeddite the Warlock, training under Ethric the Warlock - lo and behold, Sandro was a Warlock hero in Heroes I. What a coincidence.
- He's been all over Enroth ("Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia...") - lo and behold, Heroes I and II are set in Enroth and Sandro is present. Fantastic.
- Sandro hasn't been Ethric's apprentice for a few decades, and became a Necromancer when he went rogue - lo and behold, Heroes I took place over three decades ago and Sandro became a Necromancer between games. Outstanding.
- Sandro is a Lich in Heroes III, from beginning to end, according to the official manuals and campaign dialogues. Sandro of H1 and H2 is also a Lich. Wow.
- Even if there were two Sandros on the planet, what happened to the one from H1/H2? In H4 there's only one, Gauldoth even comments on his notoriety and it's said he had a network of power throughout the old world.
- On top of the above, a Ubisoft employee said here in this thread that he believes it's all one Sandro on Enroth, alongside everyone else except yourself.
1. Jeddite the Warlock has suddenly decided to confront Sandro even though he has had at least a decade to do so. If both Sandros are the same character; as Sandro has already been publicly and openly a Necromancer for the whole span of Heroes II then Jeddite's sudden anger as expressed in the letter at his *becoming* a Necromancer, given that he has *been* a Necromancer for some time makes little sense.
Given that Sandro is already publicly a Necromancer in Heroes II, not to mention a Liche, Ethics concern about his "career" makes no sense because everyone knows that Sandro is a Necromancer. Ethric wishes to eliminate the blight from the career by eliminating Sandro, but Sandro is already been running around openly practicing Necromancy and leading their armies for decades.

2. Ethric is a Warlock, Warlocks come from Enroth not Bracada. Since the Warlocks have however been on the losing side of two wars, it is rather likely that Ethric ended up in Antagarich as a refugee fleeing the Warlocks enemies. Sandro and Jeddite have together with Ethric traveled around Enroth and Sandro then traveled around Antagarich during the course of the SoD campaign (and later).

3. Since Sandro is not in any sense secretly a Necromancer in Heroes II, Gem and Crag Hack could not have been tricked by Sandro into doing their bidding, since both characters know full well that Sandro is a Liche and a Necromancer.

4. Sandro was a Liche from at earliest some time before the Rise of the Necromancer Campaign. Before that he was completely human, which is why he was able to trick Gem and Crag Hack. If Sandro had been a Liche already Gem and Crag Hack could not have been tricked so easily.
Furthermore, that Sandro uses his real name rather than an alias in his dealings with Gem and Crag Hack, when both characters know full well of a Liche and Necromancer called Sandro means that Sandro is telling.
The trick worked because Sandro was human at that time and thus obviously *not* the Sandro from Enroth. If Sandro is the same Sandro as in Heroes II, he would certainly NOT had sought out Gem or Crag Hack because he's encountered them before in order to seek out the artifacts, but local unknown heroes that had not encountered him.

5. The other Sandro never left Enroth and then later died in the Reckoning or perhaps before that. He never got to Axeoth.

6. Ubisoft is not 3DO and had nothing to do with SoD. Try the appeal to authority fallacy with an actual relevant authority next time.
Corlagon wrote: And even faced with all this, you're still arguing the opposite corner as vehemently as anything I've ever seen, like you really badly want them to be two totally different heroes, despite claiming somewhere or other that you "want" them to be the same character and are even more frustrated about the "facts" than I am.
The story makes no sense at all if they are same characters. It's as simple as that, Sandro continuity must go or the story goes. In addition to what I have already written above there is another basic problem with your same Sandro theory.

Sandro needs the artifacts to rise to the top of the Deyja heirachy, this is obviously because he is an unknown novice. But Crag Hack or Gem have no problem getting immediately accepted into Antagarich society simply on the basis of their past in Enroth do they not?

As powerful and experienced a Necromancer as Sandro from Heroes II could simply enter Deyja immediately and carve out a place for himself there. If Vidomina with no Succession War experience or glorious past whatsoever can do just that, what could Sandro have done with all of that?

Remember that he has already been able to travel to the Contested Lands, on the borders of Deyja quite freely to meet Gem. Why does he have to fight two whole scenarios in order to get to Deyja when he could have simply walked INTO Deyja, something Vidomina did without being a Liche or a properly enrolled Necromancer yet.

He needed the items because he is *not* an established Necromancer and he wants to catapult himself immediately to the very top of the Deyjan heirachy rather than to the bottom. But Heroes II Sandro would have started at least at the middle simply by arriving since someone of such experience and proven skills would almost immediately find an employer (as Gem did with Clovergreen).

Corlagon wrote: Image
Wizards Apprentice and Necromancer are not mutually exclusive, indeed the whole story revolves around him being both, hence the conflict with Ethric and his ability to fool Gem and Crag Hack.

Sandro is a wizards apprentice that is already secretly practices Necromancy. As mentioned already, the story ceases to make sense if everyone knows that he is a Necromancer, because Gem and Crag Hack already know about him and who he is.
Corlagon wrote: So far the main impetus of your position, since we dealt with the "I don't get why skeletons drink wine so the story is wrong" and "Sandro is clearly human so the story is wrong" stuff, amounts to: Sandro is clearly not Heroes I/II Sandro because the story says he became a Necromancer recently.
Yes the story falls apart if he has been openly a Necromancer and a Liche for a long time. It contradicts the story to have a glorious career as a necromancer in Enroth for the obvious reason that everyone knows he's a necromancer and a liche. As already mentioned many times.
Corlagon wrote:
Target wrote:It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally tracked me down. He hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer and wants to remove the blight from his career.
Target wrote:Your plans to take over Deyja can now commence! Ethric, your old master, became furious when he received word you became a Necromancer. When he learns about your plans with these two artifacts, he will be absolutely livid!
Agents of Vengeance wrote:I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer!
Where did these texts say Sandro became a Necromancer recently? Do they specifically say when he became a Necromancer at all? No, they didn't. The only clue at all is the fact that they refer to him becoming a Necromancer in the past tense.
Try looking at them more closely: "Ethric has finally tracked me down" (i.e. it took Ethric a while to find him? Maybe?).

And more importantly, "it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice". That proves to me that Sandro could only have become a Necromancer decades ago, around the time of Heroes I, because his bio already said nice and plainly that he first started studying necromancy while he was still under Ethric's tutelage.

Just remember what I already pointed out to you about subtlety before you reply with the same old "Sandro of H3 is clearly not H1/H2 Sandro" stuff, because the only thing that's very clear to me is the fact you haven't played the campaigns in a while, or paid close enough attention.
1. BECOMING implies recently a transition to that state, BEING or HAVING BECOME implies a state of affairs that has existed for a long time. If they were the same character, it would say that Ethric objected to him being a Necromancer, rather than him becoming one.

He has tracked him down because he has already successfully fled from Ethrics academy, where he spends most the time (this is why he needs proxies like Gem to get the items) but is also where he has assembled the items. But if both Sandros were the same character, the passage would simply read.
It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally ran into me after all these years. He is angry about me having become a Necromancer and wishes to avenge the blight I have inflicted upon his career.
2. If this happened at least 10 years ago how come he is furious about it only now? There is absolutely nothing secret about Sandro's status as a Necromancer in Heroes II. It is truly ridiculous to think that Ethric has only found out about it now.

3. The motives of Ethric are put down quite clearly in the first quote. He wants to wants to remove the blight from his career.

We already know from Rise of the Necromancer that Sandros 'outing' as a Necromancer has only recently happened and this is from Sandros POV so it cannot be lying. Ethric however can be lying because you are quoting a letter sent by him to one of the four protagonist heroes not something written as his own POV.

He has already failed to eliminate the embarrassment that his wayward pupil has caused by eliminating said pupil. So the next logical thing to do is to rewrite history and denying that Sandro was his pupil during the time that he was studying Necromancy, by saying he ran away and became a Necromancer decades ago thereby absolves him of responsibility and thus the blight on his career!

Because this is a very strong claim to make (that he is outright lying) I will show you Sandro's bio as evidence.
Image
Sandro - Lich Male Necromancer
Skills: Basic Necromancy, Basic Sorcery
Specialty: Sandro receives a 5% per level bonus to his Sorcery skill.
Biography: Sandro first studied Necromancy under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric. Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia, and now serves Finneas Vilmar, leader of the Necromancers of Deyja.
That Sandro first studied Necromancy/became a Necromancer while still an apprentice (under the tutelage) of Ethric is clearly stated here. If Sandro ran away and then became a Necromancer, then Ethric avoids responsibility and thus his career is not damaged.
I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer!
The reverse however, that he became a Necromancer and then RAN AWAY is what the bio says and what actually happened.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 31 Oct 2010, 00:21

So now the argument against Sandro being Sandro goes far beyond a possible discrepancy as to when he became a Necromancer. Now "the [whole] story makes no sense".

There's a few obvious flaws in your reasoning.

First of all you're making the wild assumption that all the heroes who fought in the Wars of Enrothian Succession became incredibly powerful, world-famous superstars. Who says Sandro ever had a glorious career in Enroth? Who says "everyone knows he's a necromancer and a liche [sic]"? His faction suffered crushing defeat in two wars. What glory was there in that? You're just pulling the idea out of nowhere.

Crag Hack and Gem both fought in those wars, and they didn't even know of one another's existence until halfway through Unholy Alliance. Nobody in Antagarich seemed to know who they were at first. That was the writers' intention. We're on the opposite side of the planet here. The storyline didn't somehow implode or "fall apart" as a result.

Secondly, yes, Sandro needed to rise to the top of the Deyjan hierarchy from scratch. So what? Every outsider has to properly prove themselves to become integrated into Deyjan society. In MM7's backstory, even Archibald Ironfist had to claw his way up through the ranks through the Challenge of Dominance. This isn't a convincing inconsistency. It's so minor and negligible that I'm almost left speechless.

Thirdly - you're still determined to convince me there is a mention that Sandro became a Necromancer / Lich recently. There is not. Doesn't exist. Post it here if you find it someday. "Male Lich", says the manual, no humanity involved whatsoever. "he hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer" can be turned on its head, turned back to front and turned to the eastern seaboard but it still isn't going to say for sure when this "becoming a Necromancer" happened, no matter how you interpret it. It could mean yesterday, it could mean 60 years ago.

As for the stuff about Ethric lying through his teeth in that correspondence, what can I say to that? We could assume everybody in HoMM is a liar and that the narrative is all potentially wrong. We could pick and choose totally at random to suit any conclusion. When we move into the territory of claiming a character like Escaton or Tarnum or Ethric is lying/mistaken or a fact is wrong when there's no such implication to back this up, it's the argument that falls apart, not the storyline.

What is your point?
What is the ultimate profit if there are two Sandros walking around on Enroth. Don't tell me it makes the story more consistent or realistic. I don't think it's realistic in the slightest to presume it was ever NWC's intention for people to construe that there's two totally unrelated individuals named Sandro who started out as Warlocks, became Liches, roamed Enroth at some point, look the exact same and all the rest. That's so coincidental it's almost ludicrous.
Slayer wrote:That Sandro first studied Necromancy/became a Necromancer while still an apprentice (under the tutelage) of Ethric is clearly stated here.
Yeah, you said it - and since he hasn't been apprenticed to Ethric for decades, that means he's been a Necromancer for a long time indeed, presuming of course that the games haven't been schizophrenically lying to us now and then... oh wait, no.

So congrats, you're the first person who's ever been convinced beyond persuasion that there are multiple Sandros in H1-4. New ideas are fantastic but I tend to favour the simplest explanation where at all possible. It's simple to just take for granted that Sandro is Sandro because there aren't any real contradictions in his personal backstory, confusing parts or oddly written paragraphs yes, clearly, but there is just nothing that outright clashes with anything else. Just a tip for you: I would have a much harder time gathering evidence that Lord Haart is the same character between games, so why not make him your next point of devil's advocacy.

P.S. Interesting that Ubi's lack of affiliation is a problem as far as you're concerned since I thought that point would appeal to you - after all you're the guy who tried to use a few tavern rumours in H5 to magically propel Ashan into a futuristic version of Axeoth.

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Unread postby Croix » 31 Oct 2010, 01:14

This was a wonderful read, not like listening to a college lecture where you learn something, but like watching a bunch of drunk party goers and a couple sane bystanders trying to build a catapult.

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Sandro and Yog are Pre-Heros special enemy names from WoX

Unread postby Rune_Caster » 31 Oct 2010, 05:46

On the Darkside of Xeen, Sandro is in Necropolis and Yog can be found on the world map near Sandcaster I believe.

Ethric's name is also mentioned in the Ultima series... Ultima 7 Part 2 Serpent Isle, Ethric is refered to the mad mage in that game as well...
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Unread postby XEL II » 31 Oct 2010, 09:42

And& We are talking about Sandro and Yog from Enroth and Ethric from Might and Magic.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 31 Oct 2010, 22:09

Slayer, why did Captain Barbosa from Pirates of the Caribbean still eat apples, when he's undead?

Because it reminded him of something he was able to do once in the past.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 01 Nov 2010, 13:19

Corlagon wrote:So now the argument against Sandro being Sandro goes far beyond a possible discrepancy as to when he became a Necromancer. Now "the [whole] story makes no sense".
It is possible for Sandro to be the same character, but if he is then the total number of unlikely and implausible explanations needed are so vast, while if they are different characters none of the explanations are needed.
Corlagon wrote: There's a few obvious flaws in your reasoning.
If there weren't there would be little point in posting. :creative: :creative: :creative:
Corlagon wrote: First of all you're making the wild assumption that all the heroes who fought in the Wars of Enrothian Succession became incredibly powerful, world-famous superstars. Who says Sandro ever had a glorious career in Enroth? Who says "everyone knows he's a necromancer and a liche [sic]"? His faction suffered crushing defeat in two wars. What glory was there in that? You're just pulling the idea out of nowhere.
Given that overall command of all the numerous armies of all the cultures in every Heroes game is typically held time and time again over several years by the same collection of about a dozen individuals, it is inconceivable, utterly implausible that Sandro avoided becoming widely known about in Enroth given he was one of these key individuals.

It is even more implausible that both Gem and Crag Hack who are directly involved in fighting for or against Sandro's armies do not know that Sandro is a Necromancer and a Liche.

It is also utterly implausible that given a choice of a whole host of native Antagarich heroes who likely don't have a clue as to whom Sandro is, the very people who Sandro should choose to employ are the very people who happen to be most likely to know exactly who Sandro is, heroes fresh from Enroth. Given that if you are right Sandro is basically a spy at this point, what spy seeks out the people who know of his true identity?

Given how extraordinary it would be for all these three implausible things to be the case, then "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is at play here big time.

Crag Hack was also on the losing side of two wars and he is described in his bio as a 'decorated hero' in Enroth. Heroes in Heroes of Might and Magic lose all the time and they still retain their status as heroes and "market value".

Corlagon wrote: Crag Hack and Gem both fought in those wars, and they didn't even know of one another's existence until halfway through Unholy Alliance. Nobody in Antagarich seemed to know who they were at first. That was the writers' intention. We're on the opposite side of the planet here. The storyline didn't somehow implode or "fall apart" as a result.
Extraordinary claims again Corlagon. Crag Hack and Gem were present in two previous games Heroes I and II, extremely unlikely that they do not know of each-other. That Crag Hack and Gem are not in contact with each-other until halfway through Unholy Alliance does not constitute even minor evidence that Gem and Crag Hack do not know who each-other are!

Is there some kind of Heroes of Might and Magic version of Facebook which means that the heroes can always keep in touch with each-other anywhere they go!

Corlagon wrote: Secondly, yes, Sandro needed to rise to the top of the Deyjan hierarchy from scratch. So what? Every outsider has to properly prove themselves to become integrated into Deyjan society. In MM7's backstory, even Archibald Ironfist had to claw his way up through the ranks through the Challenge of Dominance. This isn't a convincing inconsistency. It's so minor and negligible that I'm almost left speechless.
Yes, I'm not suggesting that Sandro would automatically catapult himself to the top, but that if he were to arrive his past as a hero in Enroth would gain him a strong chance of becoming a Deyja hero automatically.

Mission 1 and 2 of Rise of the Necromancer thus become redundant if both Sandros are the same, because he has no apparent problem getting practically *to* Deyja in order to enlist Gem and then all the way to Krewlad on the other side of the continent. Gem is also redundant, because all the items he needs for the Cloak of the Necromancer (I think) are already in areas with a strong Deyjan military presence.

Why does he suddenly have to fight two wars in order to get into Deyja, when before he can travel the length of the whole continent incognito without apparent incident?
Corlagon wrote: Thirdly - you're still determined to convince me there is a mention that Sandro became a Necromancer / Lich recently. There is not. Doesn't exist. Post it here if you find it someday. "Male Lich", says the manual, no humanity involved whatsoever. "he hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer" can be turned on its head, turned back to front and turned to the eastern seaboard but it still isn't going to say for sure when this "becoming a Necromancer" happened, no matter how you interpret it. It could mean yesterday, it could mean 60 years ago.
Corlagon, the manual is referring to a hero that is used in the game period, it says nothing about the time before Sandro is a hero, i.e. the first four missions. I have never definitely claimed to know when Sandro becomes a Liche, all I know is that since Ethric considers Necromancy to be a blight on his career it must have happened after he has ran way from Ethric's warlock school. Because Ethric considers Necromancy a 'blight on his career' he cannot have become a Liche when he is still being tutored by him.

What we know is that Ethric and Jeddite are tracking down Sandro and the motive to do this is to salvage Ethric's career from the 'taint' of having produced a Necromancer. Grammer about 'becoming' aside; the longer Sandro has been gone the less likely it is that Ethric would still be trying to track him down.

His motives are stated as being self-serving, he is trying to avoid the taint on his career. If Sandro actually ran away decades ago and has been a hero for the Necromancers during the Succession Wars and Price of Loyalty era, then Ethric career is already tainted irrevocably, because not only has a produced a Necromancer, but a high-profile one.

It is implausible that Ethric and Jeddite have spent 20+ years (decades) trying to track Sandro down and has not only failed to do so but continued trying, even though in that time Sandro has become so high-profile a Necromancer he cannot remove any 'taint' from his career and it is doubtful that even matters after so long.

And there's still also the (comparatively) small matter of the incident with Jabarkas daughter and this all happening several years ago (20+ is not several).
Corlagon wrote: As for the stuff about Ethric lying through his teeth in that correspondence, what can I say to that? We could assume everybody in HoMM is a liar and that the narrative is all potentially wrong. We could pick and choose totally at random to suit any conclusion. When we move into the territory of claiming a character like Escaton or Tarnum or Ethric is lying/mistaken or a fact is wrong when there's no such implication to back this up, it's the argument that falls apart, not the storyline.
Yes all narrative is potentially wrong. Gem and Crag Hack are quite certain for instance that Sandro is a wizard or a wizard's apprentice. Yet you are claiming that Gem and Crag Hack are wrong? Ethric's motives for opposing Sandro are already laid down here.
It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally tracked me down. He hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer and wants to remove the blight from his career.
Ethric is already prepared to KILL in order to remove the taint of Sandro's becoming a Necromancer, so what makes so sure that he would not be prepared to LIE in order to do the same thing.

Ethric's intentions are to conceal information, that Sandro was studying Necromancy under *his* tutelage. Why does Ethric want to kill Sandro? To conceal precisely that information. To read your evidence.
I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer!
Ethric has already failed in his initial plan. But fortunately for Ethric, Gem (who the message is addressed to as I vaguely remember) does not know about his failed attempt to eliminate Sandro and Ethric knows this is so.

Sandro has however been able to carry out a rather complicated plan to acquire two combo artifacts and all under Ethrics tutelage. This directly implicates Ethric, since he is responsible for his students misdeeds. It 'taints his career'. We already know he will start a war and thus KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE in order to protect his reputation as a teacher.

This false version of accounts establishes Ethric as virtuous (concealing the truth of negligent teacher) teacher victim of a malevolent student and by placing it so far in the past he cannot be held responsible for any of Sandros deeds for a long time. It is a plausible lie. While if Ethric is telling the truth the following implausible set of events must have happened.

Ethric and Jeddite have been searching for Sandro for 20+ years and have only just tracked him down; all despite Sandro being a high-profile public figure. He has not given up, despite the fact that there is no way that he can, after so long any longer conceal the fact that his student became a necromancer under his tutelage even were he to eliminate said student.


Is a lot less plausible than the following.

That a man willing to kill hundreds if not thousands of people in a war in order to conceal the shameful truth that Sandro learned necromancy under his tutelage, is prepared to lie to conceal it.

Corlagon wrote: What is your point?
What is the ultimate profit if there are two Sandros walking around on Enroth. Don't tell me it makes the story more consistent or realistic. I don't think it's realistic in the slightest to presume it was ever NWC's intention for people to construe that there's two totally unrelated individuals named Sandro who started out as Warlocks, became Liches, roamed Enroth at some point, look the exact same and all the rest. That's so coincidental it's almost ludicrous.
It was explicitly NWC's intention to have Yog as a separate individual to the Yog in Heroes I. That's why it explicitly says that he studied magic under the wizards of Bracada ALL HIS LIFE!

The profit is that it eliminates a large number of implausibilities from the story and thus renders the story more realistic and believable. This post is too long already for me list them all down. To begin with appearance, the two Sandros do not look remotely the same, beyond being Liches.

Image
Heroes III Sandro.

Image
Heroes I/II Sandro

The former is has a far pointier and sharper face than the latter even taking into account the angles, Heroes I/II Sandro would have a heart-shaped face, whilst Heroes III Sandro would have a rather narrow and pointy face. And the coincidences are really only in name, occupation and both being Liches, their story is not the same.

Sandro Heroes I/II.
1. Completes his training as a Warlock and rises to become key leader of the Warlock faction (before Heroes I).
2. Becomes a Liche. (before Heroes I)
3. Fights for Lord Alamar and is defeated(Heroes I)
3. Abandons Warlockry and becomes a Necromancer (between Heroes I and II).
4. Fights in the Succession Wars (Heroes II).
5. Dies in Enroth (after Heroes II).

Sandro Heroes III.
1. Begins training to become a Warlock under the tutalage of Ethric (Heroes II).
2. Secretly begins to study Necromancy (Heroes II).
3. Hatches a plan to acquire artifacts of great power (Shadow of Death first 4 campaigns).
4. Becomes a Liche (between first four campaigns and Rise of Necromancer)
5. Runs away with artifacts and is tracked down by Ethric and Jeddite, defeats them and openly becomes a Necromancer before arriving in Deyja and rising to leadership of that nation before engaging on a plan to conquer the world. (rest of Shadow of Death).
6. Even though plans are defeated survives and remains a presence in Deyja (Armageddon's Blade era).
7. Escapes the Reckoning through portal. (the Reckoning)
8. Leads various undead factions in a number of wars (Heroes IV).
9. ????????????? (after Heroes IV).
10. Teaches Lucretia and Markal Necromancy (before Heroes V).
11. Is killed at Lorekeep (before Heroes V).

For one the Heroes III Sandro never becomes a Warlock.

Slayer, why did Captain Barbosa from Pirates of the Caribbean still eat apples, when he's undead?
Secret_Holder wrote: Because it reminded him of something he was able to do once in the past.
I am no longer arguing that Sandro as a Liche cannot drink wine.
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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 01 Nov 2010, 13:55

To begin with appearance, the two Sandros do not look remotely the same, beyond being Liches.
Oh really?

Ok, by that reasoning Roland of HoMM II isn't the same as the one in HoMM III/MM VII. Just look at the difference(!):

HoMM II:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/he ... others.jpg
Somehow this image won't show here.

HoMM III/MM VII:
Image
Image

P.S: You do know there's a thing called artistic interpretation, right?


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