Sandro/Yog/other lore characters discussion

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 14 2010, 8:59

ThunderTitan wrote:They drink blood to dilute the venom in their bodies?! What, Ashan hasn't heard of water yet?!

And Vampires are higher level then Liches now... while Liches aren't even dead... odd.


Someone's just not quite gotten that the 'Kiss of Asha' is supposed to be a metaphor, oh sorry it's my mistake, it was all completely literal all along. :creative: :creative:

These necromancers are a little bit too religious, not to mention a bit radioactive for my liking. But I've got an answer as ever.

In Sandro's campaign in Heroes III it is pretty clear that the transformation from living human to undead liche (proper) is a gradual one and Sandro remains partly "alive" for a long period (whole months). The end result is an undead corpse, frozen at some advanced stage of decay (it does not appear to necessary be a complete skeleton).

But it is pretty evident that spending eternity as a corpse is not a particularly appealing, becoming a vampire is more attractive as a prospect but also risk (you need blood) not to mention a lot less moral (not that the average necromancer cares, but if there were good-aligned necromancers they would be liches).

But unlike with liches, vampires consume a finite resource, which is blood. The coveted position of vampire then is restricted by limited resources, to put it bluntly only the richest necromancers can 'afford' to exist for eternity as vampires since while there can be infinite numbers of liches, only a finite number of vampires can exist.

The exact mechanism by which the transformation to liche is carried out is not mentioned, the Necromancers of Ashan may use those spiders because they make the transformation very slow, as they are hoping to acquire the resources and status enough to be allow to become one of the civilizations vampires before it's too late.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 14 2010, 13:32

Liches = undead sorcerors...

Vampires = undead with dietary restrictions...
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 14 2010, 17:05

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:In Sandro's campaign in Heroes III it is pretty clear that the transformation from living human to undead liche (proper) is a gradual one and Sandro remains partly "alive" for a long period (whole months). The end result is an undead corpse, frozen at some advanced stage of decay (it does not appear to necessary be a complete skeleton).


First of all, Sandro was only using illusory magic to appear as a living human during Rise of the Necromancer and the early campaigns: he already became a Lich before Heroes I, and SoD is set at least 30 years later.
Second, Liches are totally different creatures with different origins depending on the world. In Enroth they're created by using the Ritual of the Night and soul jars, in Axeoth they're "transformed" from the ordinary species in laboratories, while on Ashan they're something else entirely: humans who consume spider venom and begin aging backwards.
So Sandro and his (lack of) decay can't be considered analogous to the Liches on Ashan.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 14 2010, 17:17

Corlagon wrote:First of all, Sandro was only using illusory magic to appear as a living human during Rise of the Necromancer and the early campaigns: he already became a Lich before Heroes I, and SoD is set at least 30 years later.
Second, Liches are totally different creatures with different origins depending on the world. In Enroth they're created by using the Ritual of the Night and soul jars, in Axeoth they're "transformed" from the ordinary species in laboratories, while on Ashan they're something else entirely: humans who consume spider venom and begin aging backwards.
So Sandro and his (lack of) decay can't be considered analogous to the Liches on Ashan.


The Sandro of Heroes II/Heroes I is clearly a different Sandro that is also a Liche. No other explanation I'm afraid.

Your Sandro of Ashan, tutor of Lucretia and Markal is also a completely different third Sandro if you don't accept the notion that Ashan is Axeoth in the future as I do. Of course the Ashan Solymr and Crag Hack are completely different people as well despite the similarities. :) :)

Back with the four heroes, Sandro was still human and obeying his master Ethric. Over the course of the first campaign played *as* Sandro, Sandro is in process of becoming a Liche.

It was a long time ago and I have long since lost the save for progressing that far into the campaign, but this is definitely the case.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 14 2010, 17:21

I don't accept the notion that Ashan is Axeoth because it simply isn't true. I've spoken with the H6 storywriters, remember? :tired:

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No other explanation I'm afraid.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Back with the four heroes, Sandro was still human and obeying his master Ethric. Over the course of the first campaign played *as* Sandro, Sandro is in process of becoming a Liche.


Come on now please, haven't I earned at least a little credit? :P

Finneas Vilmar mission, RotN wrote:You are greeted with sharpened sticks pointed directly at your face. A stout dwarf passes between his tribesmen and approaches. "Who goes there?" he demands. Before he can see your face, an illusion covers your bones with flesh.

"No one of consequence," you answer meekly. "Why do you stop us from passing through? We mean you no harm."

"We are on the look out for a criminal named Sandro."

"Criminal? What crime has he committed?"

"He has slain our brethren, and we intend to exact vengeance upon him. They stood opposed to the evil he created but fell beneath his mighty sword," the dwarf replies.

"You certainly look prepared. What makes you think this Sandro might be near?"

"We've received warning from Lord Alarice. He may be a Necromancer as well, but he too wishes Sandro to be stopped. We will allow his armies to be depleted and then defeat the both of them, removing the evil artifacts from possession of the Necromancers."

"Well, I wish you luck. It sounds like you're going to need it. By the way, do you have any idea who I am?"

"You? I don't believe we've met before."

"Then allow me to introduce myself. My name is Sandro, and I take great pleasure in ridding the world of stupid, boastful Dwarves like yourself." You wave to your army. "Attack!"

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Postby Elvin » Oct 14 2010, 18:04

I remember that :D
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 14 2010, 21:13

Corlagon wrote:I don't accept the notion that Ashan is Axeoth because it simply isn't true. I've spoken with the H6 storywriters, remember? :tired:


Well I don't know about that but if they don't want me to think that Ashan is Axeoth in the future then they should have tried harder not to pepper the original game with references to Heroes IV and mention old characters three times.


Corlagon wrote:
Come on now please, haven't I earned at least a little credit? :P

Finneas Vilmar mission, RotN wrote:You are greeted with sharpened sticks pointed directly at your face. A stout dwarf passes between his tribesmen and approaches. "Who goes there?" he demands. Before he can see your face, an illusion covers your bones with flesh.

"No one of consequence," you answer meekly. "Why do you stop us from passing through? We mean you no harm."

"We are on the look out for a criminal named Sandro."

"Criminal? What crime has he committed?"

"He has slain our brethren, and we intend to exact vengeance upon him. They stood opposed to the evil he created but fell beneath his mighty sword," the dwarf replies.

"You certainly look prepared. What makes you think this Sandro might be near?"

"We've received warning from Lord Alarice. He may be a Necromancer as well, but he too wishes Sandro to be stopped. We will allow his armies to be depleted and then defeat the both of them, removing the evil artifacts from possession of the Necromancers."

"Well, I wish you luck. It sounds like you're going to need it. By the way, do you have any idea who I am?"

"You? I don't believe we've met before."

"Then allow me to introduce myself. My name is Sandro, and I take great pleasure in ridding the world of stupid, boastful Dwarves like yourself." You wave to your army. "Attack!"


Yes you have but I'm still right. :-D :-D :-D
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 14 2010, 21:43

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes you have but I'm still right. :-D :-D :-D


Okay thanks a lot for your enlightening rebuke Slayer. I have no idea what I was ever doing, trying to play the pedagogist here - your argument is devastatingly well-fleshed out and betrays the ultimate truth; your knowledge of the series continuity clearly eclipses mine in the extreme. My perception of the entire storyline has been turned upside-down by your wise response. I hereby retract all of my own counter-points and declare you the superior Might and Magic lore encyclopedian. Tomorrow I'm going to pack up my bags and head off into the sunset, since everything's obviously safe in your hands... but first I'm handing you the keys to Xanadu and the location of the Lost City of Atlantis :tsup:

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 14 2010, 21:55

Corlagon wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes you have but I'm still right. :-D :-D :-D


Okay thanks a lot for your enlightening rebuke Slayer. I have no idea what I was ever doing, trying to play the pedagogist here - your argument is devastatingly well-fleshed out and betrays the ultimate truth; your knowledge of the series continuity clearly eclipses mine in the extreme. My perception of the entire storyline has been turned upside-down by your wise response. I hereby retract all of my own counter-points and declare you the superior Might and Magic lore encyclopedian. Tomorrow I'm going to pack up my bags and head off into the sunset, since everything's obviously safe in your hands... but first I'm handing you the keys to Xanadu and the location of the Lost City of Atlantis :tsup:


:D :D :D :D :D :D

You know the offer of becoming Might and Magic lore encyclopedian, that sounds like a lot of work and responsibility, you know all that having to be right all the time.
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Postby XEL II » Oct 14 2010, 22:16

Slayer, it's so obvious that you aren't right that I don't know why I'm telling you this. Corlagon presented the ironclad proof that Sandro was lich the whole time and used illusionary magic to disguise himself as a human.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 16 2010, 18:21

XEL II wrote:Slayer, it's so obvious that you aren't right that I don't know why I'm telling you this. Corlagon presented the ironclad proof that Sandro was lich the whole time and used illusionary magic to disguise himself as a human.


He did no such thing XEL II, the progress of Sandro from human to Liche is clearly referred to during the first campaign.

I especially remember the bit where he is eying up Vidomina and the skeletons are mocking him for it.

This is from Sandro's point of view; he does use illusory magic to disguise himself as a human later on, but that has nothing to do with. That Sandro was not a liche before the beginning of the first Sandro-POV campaign is what I clearly remember.

Remember I do not *want* this to be the case as I love continuity, but it is clearly and unambiguously the case within the campaign story that Sandro becomes a Liche over the process of the first Sandro-POV campaign.

That there is another Liche in Enroth called Sandro is coincidental, Heroes III Yog is also not the same character as the Yog in Enroth, I reckon that he is probably his barbarian father though, after whom his genie mother named him.
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Postby Elvin » Oct 16 2010, 19:00

He's the same methinks. He did train under a warlock and fled from him. Also nothing really suggests that the transformation is happening at the same time, his real face IS a skull and probably had been for decades that way.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 16 2010, 22:11

The New MM Loremaster wrote:Sandro was not a liche before the beginning of the first Sandro-POV campaign


The New MM Loremaster wrote:there is another Liche in Enroth called Sandro


The New MM Loremaster wrote:Heroes III Yog is also not the same character as the Yog in Enroth


...

...I regret nothing?

Is he doing this deliberately to annoy us or something?

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Postby Tress » Oct 18 2010, 9:54

Heroes III Yog is also not the same character as the Yog in Enroth
Actually apart from fact that I cant consider homm1 hero names as canon(since they are basically taken from old mm parts), I believe they cant mean homm 1 yog to be same as homm3. I red rationalization on wiki site, but there is just too many inconsistencies by placing birth of barbarian before homm1, like Vidomnias age(even if she is necromancer), not to mention fact that she defected to Deya along with Sandro that would mean that birth of barbarian happened only slightly before Sandro's rise to power. Generally it is much easier and makes more sense to not consider Homm1(like haart,yog...) heroes as a canon(maybe except some rare ones)

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 18 2010, 15:47

tress wrote:...generally it is much easier and makes more sense to not consider Homm1(like haart,yog...) heroes as a canon(maybe except some rare ones)


Actually it's the same everybody in all the Heroes games to date. Not allowed to assume otherwise, unless you have proof? Post it here. I have proof from SoD that it's the same Yog, at least. You can go and look it up yourself if you want. Pay attention to the texts during Agents of Vengeance.

tress wrote:Should chill and take some pills before you get sent to nuthouse. :)


Don't you worry about me, with the number of crazy theories flying around it's doubtful I'll be the one who ends up in the nuthouse ;)

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Postby Cabal » Oct 19 2010, 5:38

Actually it's the same everybody in all the Heroes games to date. Not allowed to assume otherwise, unless you have proof? Post it here. I have proof from SoD that it's the same Yog, at least. You can go and look it up yourself if you want. Pay attention to the texts during Agents of Vengeance.


I was on doubts myself, but you are right of course (unless certain Loremaster show us True Way :)

Agents of Vengeance:

Sandro:
==Gem: Ethric==
"I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer! There were more ill tidings. Ethric said Sandro might be trying to construct a powerful artifact from all the artifacts I gathered for him. I was so furious, I screamed. None of my troops came near me for an hour. I must pass these tidings on to Gelu and the Council of Elders."

Yog:
==Gem: Yog and Crag==
Today I received word from Gelu about a pair of Barbarians attacking Deyja from the Contested Lands. To my surprise, an hour later some of my Elven scouts escorted in some Orc spies with a message for me. It was from a blue Barbarian hero named Yog. Hmm, I met him once in Enroth.

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Postby Tress » Oct 19 2010, 8:19

unless you have proof?
Well proof is right there. To be more specific, in first map of Yog's he laments that he watched Vidomnia to be corrupted and deffect to Deya.
When you were at the magic academy, you fell in love with another student, named Vidomina. It must be true that opposites attract because, unlike you, she was the quite scholarly and bookish. And how she loved studying magic! It was her life, or would have been, had it not corrupted her. For Vidomina spent her spare time scouring libraries for arcane magical tomes, and she eventually came across a manuscript such as the one now in your possession. Against the advice of her teachers, she studied the book, but its evil glyphs transformed her into a Necromancer. She now resides in Deyja, where she will live out the rest of her days.

While in second map of Sandro campaign we see Vidomnia(still wizard, I wont cling to things like that Vidomnica is already possible enemy in both Gelu and Gems campaing as it is for gameplay purposes and possibly simply overlooked, just like in Sandro's map where Erathia and Avlee is represented by Inferno and Dungeon towns(unles she have twin sister that deffected too...)) getting tutored by Sandro and led to Deya. This fact clearly places birth of barbarian, and Yogs transformation to barbarian, at relatively same time as rest of campaigns, thus making it technical impossibility for him to participate in homm1 as a barbarian.

Hmm, I met him once in Enroth.
That is only one reference and even then vague. As a snobbish sorceress she could as well mistaken him for any barbarian with drunken down liver problem, or at very least for blue barbarian homm2 have(that is not Yog).

Also in "Secrets Revealed" Yog's tone towards Crag is like he wouldn't recognize him, and tries to form impression of him from his letters, that would be contradictory to fact that they both were barbarians back at Enroth. It would be highly odd if Gem would know Crag, while Yog who is supposed to be comrade of his from back homm1, does not.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 19 2010, 15:45

tress wrote:That is only one reference and even then vague


But it's more than you presented, which is almost totally empirical.

• We have no reason to believe that Crag and Yog ever met in H1 (lorewise anyway) - it's not even implied anywhere.
• We've no reason to believe there are two blue half-Genie Barbarians named Yog running around on Enroth (which would be a huge stretch anyway, cf H4 which remarks on his uniqueness as an individual - a "living contradiction").
• We do have reason to believe he was in Enroth once, and met Gem when she was there. Can't be a coincidental little reference since Yog was in Enroth in H1.
• We do know that almost all other recurring heroes in the HoMM games so far represent the same character throughout the series.

I mean, by stretching the alternative logic a little, you could argue that there's no reason to assume the Gem in H3 is the same Gem from H1/2. It's not specifically said they're the same hero. There could simply have been two identical Sorceresses who hated necromancy, joined the Guild, fought against Archibald and never aged, both extant on the same continent at the same time. But nobody thinks like that (hopefully) ;)

By the way - don't forget that Crag Hack isn't necessarily "the full shilling" so to speak :devious:

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 19 2010, 17:27

Corlagon wrote:I mean, by stretching the alternative logic a little, you could argue that there's no reason to assume the Gem in H3 is the same Gem from H1/2. It's not specifically said they're the same hero. There could simply have been two identical Sorceresses who hated necromancy, joined the Guild, fought against Archibald and never aged, both extant on the same continent at the same time. But nobody thinks like that (hopefully) ;)


If nobody ever questions the easiest explanation, we would still believe that lightning is the wrath of a god. BTW how do you know that H1/2 Gem (assuming that they are a single person) hated necromancy? Was there any necromancy in H1 at all?
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Postby Tress » Oct 19 2010, 17:55

But it's more than you presented, which is almost totally empirical.
Actually not really. What I provided unambiguously proves that "birth of barbarian" is set at relatively same time as Sandro rise to power, and thus after both "elixir of life" and "new beginning" which undoubfully is set after homm1 and and homm2. There is no empiric thinking unless you support two Vidomnia theory :)(one that lived since homm1 time along with yog-not yet barbarian and other one - one that was tutored by Sandro).
Unless you can rationalize that, I must either conclude that it is another Yog, or his appearance should be considered as noncanon as simple retcon.
• We have no reason to believe that Crag and Yog ever met in H1 (lorewise anyway) - it's not even implied anywhere.


Well he is nearly most popular barbarian, think everyone should know him if they serve under same lord, but ok, that doesn't necessarily prove it.

• We've no reason to believe there are two blue half-Genie Barbarians named Yog running around on Enroth (which would be a huge stretch anyway, cf H4 which remarks on his uniqueness as an individual - a "living contradiction").


I think contradiction remark is due to his magical heritage versus his brutal nature, not as a license to contradict common sense and rationalization to obvious inconsistency. Again I believe that there isnt second Yog, that would be worth noting. Either consider his existence retconed or ignore him, but it cant be same person, unless he have time machine which he used between his campaign and angelic alliance one. (intrestingly mm universe supports time trave)Most hero appearances in homm1 cant be taken as canon, if that contradicts later games IMO.

• We do have reason to believe he was in Enroth once, and met Gem when she was there. Can't be a coincidental little reference since Yog was in Enroth in H1.

She sounded rather unsure and simply remembered. That would mean either she mistaken, or even to mention more crazy option - met with second Yog that lives in Enroth :P and mistook him for Bracada one.(certainly not supporting this one to be clear) so "Hmm, I met him once in Enroth." remark only reinfoces second Yog theory :P
• We do know that almost all other recurring heroes in the HoMM games so far represent the same character throughout the series.


Actually there are some. Characters like Kastore or Maximus wouldnt bother me much as they dont have backstory, and thus could be overlooked similarly as Yog. Two Crag Hacks on other hand, where both are mayor characters are odd to say least.


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