What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

[XEL II]

The bio isn't necessarily salient in comparison; you know as well as I do that Terry Ray probably didn't play MM8.

But it's still part of MM canon. Otherwise, we can consider Heroes Chonicles non-canon.

Hexx's bio, coupling with Gauldoth's statement (which can be interpreted as Kreegans fleeing to the Fiery Realm after Reckoning), suggests that the survivng Kreegans fled Enroth when the Reckoning happenend. It doesn't kill MM, since Escaton may not have known about an extremely small amount of surviving Kreegans.

[XEL II]

And if we assume that CotD was after Mutare's AB campaign as suggested by Adrienne's age and Playing With Fire statement, how do we explain the presense of Kreegans guarding the Vial of Dragon's Blood in Map 2?

[Corlagon]

Escaton may not have known about an extremely small amount of surviving Kreegans

...and that's precisely where you're stepping into the territory of fanfiction. I'm sure you realise this yourself.
Look, I write articles for the MM wiki. What am I supposed to put in the article on the Kreegans when I cover their history?
Slayer, and now you, might suggest something like this:

"Judging from Catherine Ironfist and Escaton's statements in Might and Magic VIII, the Kreegans were eliminated "last year" (before 1172 AS). However, these were later totally invalidated when it was mentioned in a bio from Heroes IV that the Kreegan Empire crumbled after the Reckoning. Hexx's biography also mentions that demons abandoned the practice of necromancy following the Reckoning, which is ironclad evidence that they were on Enroth at the time of Heroes IV - therefore rendering Escaton either mistaken or a complete liar."

But I would much rather write a less radically-assertive account:

"In Might and Magic VIII (which occurs in 1172 AS), Escaton clarifies that the Kreegans are exterminated and no longer present on Enroth; however, not until Heroes IV is it mentioned by Gauldoth that a few of their number secretly fled Enroth for the safety of the Fiery Realm. This explains the presence of Kreegan heroes such as Calh and Ash in Heroes IV, despite their race's apparent decimation by Erathia and the Ironfists during the events of Armageddon's Blade. Some Heroes IV texts also imply that the Kreegan Empire maintained a continued presence on Enroth even after Escaton's demise."

I refuse to buy into the idea that Escaton was falsely informed in MM8, because that's just crossing the line.

And if we assume that CotD was after AB

We do no such thing

[XEL II]

He wasn't falsely informed. Yes, the Kreegans are decimated and are no longer have any significant numbers on Enroth, there are barely tens of them. Escaton may not have bothered counting every exact Kreegan or scouring every santimeter of Enroth's surface in search for Kreegans. It's no big deal.

We do no such thing

You have AB-SO-LU-TE-LY no freaking single scrap of evidence that CotD was before RoE. And there are at least two facts to suggest that it was after AB:
First, Adrienne was studiying Fire Magic in Eeofol for two years since she was 15 and when she returned to Tatalia the event of RoE have already begun, so she couldn't be present in CotD nor have the relation ship with Tarnum i nthe past (she would be too young for that).
Second and most important, in Tavern rumors in Map 2 of Playing With Fire Campaign it's clearly stated that "the young Dungeon Overlord aspires to be the Queen". Note that it is given in present tense, while the statement about Christian's campaign is in past tense.

Yes, King of Erathia is indeed mentioned in CotD. This could be Morgan Kendal or some other guy he chose to be King. Sir Kentain was talking about the rulers, of Erathia, not members of the Gryphonheart dynasty, he outlived. Catherine wasn't ruler by the time of Reckoning.

Lastly, if we do assume that CotD was after AB, how do we explain the Kreean presense in Map 2?

[Corlagon]

Ah, whatever you say, XEL...

[XEL II]

Not that I wish to be obsessive, but you didn't answer my question

[tolich]

And if we assume that CotD was after AB

We do no such thing

Probably, `We do know such thing`?

[Tress]

I refuse to buy into the idea that Escaton was falsely informed in MM8, because that's just crossing the line.

Considering large ammount of inferno heroes in homm4 I can only assume that at least some cells of Kreegans survived. Perhaps small enough for Estacon to not consider them any threat and with no means to reproduce rapidly. After all Estacon is meant to destroy planets that are infested with Kreegans rather than handful of them, beside I cant accept that it is possible to exterminate 100% of any sentient race, specially in fantasy setting. They can destroy all hives, towns, bases, temples, but they cant catch every last one of them. There will always be some cave where some Kreegan is hiding.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Ice Demons were brought into Necross from the Fiery Realm and in Calh's bio it is said that he was one of the first Kreegans to slip into Axeoth. Gauldoth says that portal is temporary.

How can the Kreegan Empire crumble AFTER the Reckoning if there is no significant number of Kreegans in Axeoth?

There are Kreegans in Axeoth by the time of the third map of Half-Dead campaign.

It doesn't say that Ice Demons came from the Fiery Realm anywhere that I am anywhere of. It doesn't even make any logical sense (Ice Demons and Fire, not likely).

There is 0% evidence of any migration from the Fiery Realm. And if the portal is temporery like Gauldoth theorizes (he doesn't state that it is when he actually creates it) the portal will be, there can't be any such migration anyway.

Your argument is self-contradictory, the portal cannot be temporary and the Kreegans migrate from the Fiery Realm.

There are Kreegans in Axeoth from the start of the very first LIFE Campaign, when Lysander gets a quest to destroy the Venom Spawn infesting a region of Palaedra.

It's clear that there's no way in hell (pun intended) that that's the case. Slayer is actually right here: Eeofol, etc. can't have perished after the Reckoning. An empire of Kreegans can't die if there aren't any on the planet. So either it's not referring to that empire, or it's an oversight. No need to confuse the situation further by saying some of them survived until after 1172 - that destroys MM8.

It's reasonably plausible that the "Kreegan Empire" mentioned here is talking about the Kreegans' followers - fragments of the Cult of Baa, the Humanists, etc.

Why does it destroy Might and Magic VIII? You can't destroy what been destroyed already. The entire CRUSHING weight of Might and Magic lore proves that the Might and Magic people are mistaken at least in the sense of the long term.

Actually, what ARE Kreegans doing practising necromancy?.. They weren't associated with it at all in HoMM3 and MMs.

Also, they could have fled not only to the Fiery Realm, but also to Planes, mostly the Plane of Fire (since they have Efreet allies, they must have got there at some point anyway).

Because the Kreegan faction merged with the Necromancer faction shortly before the Reckoning judging from Hexx's bio.

This relationship continues into Heroes IV.

Yes it does, that's exactly what it means by definition... Either they're exterminated - all dead and gone - or they're not. They can't be "a bit exterminated" in much the same way that one can't be a "little pregnant" or "kind of dead". If you're saying any of them are still traipsing around on the surface of Enroth after the Night of the Crystal, you're saying Escaton is incorrect by extension.
The bio isn't necessarily salient in comparison; you know as well as I do that Terry Ray probably didn't play MM8.

There is a third option Corlagon and you know that.

At the time of Might and Magic VIII they retreated temporarily to the Fiery Realm (or somewhere else) in order to get away from Escaton, so in the present everyone is completely right, the Kreegans are eliminated from Enroth, except that they left in place the means for their swift return.

It's just they came back to Enroth-continent shortly before the Reckoning as confirmed by Might and Magic XI (but any case they certainly returned).

And probably allied with the Necromancers there, in what was supposed to be a 'Cult of Baa' relationship, except it went the wrong way around after the Reckoning and they ended up under the Necromancer boot-heel.

"In Might and Magic VIII (which occurs in 1172 AS), Escaton clarifies that the Kreegans are exterminated and no longer present on Enroth; however, not until Heroes IV is it mentioned by Gauldoth that a few of their number secretly fled Enroth for the safety of the Fiery Realm. This explains the presence of Kreegan heroes such as Calh and Ash in Heroes IV, despite their race's apparent decimation by Erathia and the Ironfists during the events of Armageddon's Blade. Some Heroes IV texts also imply that the Kreegan Empire maintained a continued presence on Enroth even after Escaton's demise."

I refuse to buy into the idea that Escaton was falsely informed in MM8, because that's just crossing the line.

If the Kreegans can leave for the Fiery Realm in considerable numbers at the Reckoning, which they had no recollection of; just think of what they could have done had they actually had months to plan their retreat?

Escaton and Catherine are completely right (and tress is wrong), there were indeed no Kreegans in the entire world at the time of Might and Magic VIII. They were wrong only in assuming that they had exterminated the Kreegans, when in fact they had simply fled Enroth for another world/plane (the Fiery Realm).

They fled to either avoid extermination at the hands of Catherine, or to avoid Escaton (or both perhaps).

The superiority of my explanation is that is also explains another mystery, why is it that Escaton, who is a sentient being was not allowed to end the Convergance? Do the Ancients want to destroy their own worlds for no reason?

The reason is that just because the Kreegans appear to have been wiped out, does not mean that they are actually gone. You could have scoured the whole of Enroth and found no sign whatsoever of the Kreegans at the Might and Magic VIII.

But while Escaton is equipped with the ability to detect the presence of the Kreegans on a world, it is not possible for him to detect whether or not the Kreegans have a means of returning, because that is on/in the Fiery Realm.

[XEL II]

The portal existed long enough for Gauldoth to go to the Fiery Realm, find Calibarr there and go back. "Temporary" simply means that it's not permanent and will disappear in time, it isn't stated anywhere how long it existed. Plus, it is stated in Calh's bio that Kreegans traveled to Axeoth with him being one of the first to do so. Ice Demons joined Necross after Map 2 of Half-Dead campaign in which the portal was opened.

Why does it destroy Might and Magic VIII? You can't destroy what been destroyed already. The entire CRUSHING weight of Might and Magic lore proves that the Might and Magic people are mistaken at least in the sense of the long term.

That is so for you. In reality, MM lore has pretty strong continuty and connection between games' storylines and plot elemnts with only few minor mistakes, most of which are from Heroes Chronicles onward, when storylines were no longer written by JVC.

Because the Kreegan faction merged with the Necromancer faction shortly before the Reckoning judging from Hexx's bio.

It isn't said anywhere in Hexx's bio that Kreegan merged with Necromancer faction, it just states that Kreegans stopped using Necromancy after the Reckoning. Your theory about Kreegans retreating to Fiery Realm and then returning to Enroth is COMPLETELY made up and has no canonical evidence to be backed with. Nicolai's just assuming that Kreegans took Castle Ironfist, while in reality it was the Reckoning.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

The portal existed long enough for Gauldoth to go to the Fiery Realm, find Calibarr there and go back. "Temporary" simply means that it's not permanent and will disappear in time, it isn't stated anywhere how long it existed. Plus, it is stated in Calh's bio that Kreegans traveled to Axeoth with him being one of the first to do so. Ice Demons joined Necross after Map 2 of Half-Dead campaign in which the portal was opened.

A group of Ice Demons joined Nekross and took up work keeping the corpses cool. This we know.

Ice Demons however were already present in the world before then as is clear from the games.

Venom Spawn are not only present in the game but appear as part of a quest as part of the first Life mission.

That is so for you. In reality, MM lore has pretty strong continuty and connection between games' storylines and plot elemnts with only few minor mistakes, most of which are from Heroes Chronicles onward, when storylines were no longer written by JVC.

And?

It isn't said anywhere in Hexx's bio that Kreegan merged with Necromancer faction, it just states that Kreegans stopped using Necromancy after the Reckoning. Your theory about Kreegans retreating to Fiery Realm and then returning to Enroth is COMPLETELY made up and has no canonical evidence to be backed with. Nicolai's just assuming that Kreegans took Castle Ironfist, while in reality it was the Reckoning.

It is clear from the games that the Kreegans merged with the Necromancer faction. It is clear from the fact that MANY of them stopped using Necromancy (Hexx's bio) that this merger happened in the era immediately before the Reckoning, as we know that in Heroes III they did not use Necromancy.

That Calh was one of the first demons to slip into the new world reffers I think to him making a choice between fleeing to the Fiery Realm and Axeoth and choose the latter. Anything else doesn't make sense, unless you want to invent an fictional invasion from the Fiery Realm that never happened and has the following problems.

1. The game which has Kreegan creatures present in Axeoth before Death Mission 2.

2. Has no mention in the game when it is sufficiently major that it couldn't avoid notice.


I wonder if you are capable of actually listening XEL II. I know that Nicolai is only assuming the Kreegans took Castle Ironfist, but that he does ASSUME that, means at the very least that the Kreegans were a threat to Enroth at the time of the Reckoning.

Since we know from Might and Magic VIII that the Kreegans went away, we can deduce from their lack of presence in events on Antagarich (King Kilgor's invasion) that when they returned, they returned to Enroth.

It is canonically sourced that they were a threat to Enroth from Might and Magic XI.

[ThunderTitan]

A group of Ice Demons joined Nekross and took up work keeping the corpses cool. This we know.

Ice Demons however were already present in the world before then as is clear from the games.

Venom Spawn are not only present in the game but appear as part of a quest as part of the first Life mission.

And what makes you think two creatures not found outside of Axeoth, one of which is a summon even have to be kreegan instead of just native demon like creatures?!

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

And what makes you think two creatures not found outside of Axeoth, one of which is a summon even have to be kreegan instead of just native demon like creatures?!

Because they appear in the Fiery Realm which is a world fully under Kreegan dominion.

All the Kreegan creatures found in Axeoth appear in the Fiery Realm.

And all Kreegan creatures can be summoned up with spells temporarily in Heroes IV.

[XEL II]

Venom Spawn are not only present in the game but appear as part of a quest as part of the first Life mission.

I can't see why there couldn't have been Venom Spawns on Axeoth.

And?

...and you better not say such preposterous things about MM storyline.

It is clear from the games that the Kreegans merged with the Necromancer faction. It is clear from the fact that MANY of them stopped using Necromancy (Hexx's bio) that this merger happened in the era immediately before the Reckoning, as we know that in Heroes III they did not use Necromancy.

The fact that Kreegans stopped using Necromancy means only that they stopped using Necromancy, it is never stated that tey merged with Necromancer before the Reckoning, not in Hexx's bio, nowhere. And they could nicely use Necromancy in some degree during their invasion of Enroth (at the very least, Baa members used it).

That Calh was one of the first demons to slip into the new world reffers I think to him making a choice between fleeing to the Fiery Realm and Axeoth and choose the latter.

It says the the demons slipped into Axeoth and that Calh was one of the first. Not that they escaped or fled into it during the Reckoning, but that some demons arrived there and not simultaneously (since Calh was "one of the first to slip").

1. The game which has Kreegan creatures present in Axeoth before Death Mission 2.

Imps and Venom Spawns are not Kreegans and some number of them could have inhabited Axeoth (as we meet Imps in MM9, for example).

2. Has no mention in the game when it is sufficiently major that it couldn't avoid notice.

See above, I pointed out that it is stated that Kreegans slipped into Axeoth in Calh's io (while we know from Half-Dead campaign that in the Reckoning they fled into Fiery Realm).

It is canonically sourced that they were a threat to Enroth from Might and Magic XI.

WHERE? Show me the exact piece of text (not Nicolai assuming Castle Ironfist destuction in the Reckoning to be Kreegan attack) saying that the Kreegan were threat before the Reckoning.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

I can't see why there couldn't have been Venom Spawns on Axeoth.

Because Venom Spawns are a type of Demon/Kreegan and appear along with all the other Kreegan forms in the Fiery Realm.

There are not separate Kreegan creatures that only ever appear in Fiery Realm and nowhere else.

...and you better not say such preposterous things about MM storyline.

Such as? Who are you to absolutely define what is preposterous and what is not?

Whether the inconsistencies are down to different authors (which they largely are) does not subtract from the fact that the authors have no in-universe existence and the inconsistencies still need to be resolved.

The fact that Kreegans stopped using Necromancy means only that they stopped using Necromancy, it is never stated that tey merged with Necromancer before the Reckoning, not in Hexx's bio, nowhere. And they could nicely use Necromancy in some degree during their invasion of Enroth (at the very least, Baa members used it).

We know that the Kreegans have merged with the Necromancers in Heroes IV because they are THE EXACT SAME FACTION!

The only question is whether this merger happened before or after the Reckoning. From what Hexx's bio says about the matter, many of the Kreegans turned away from Necromancy after the Reckoning.

Given that there are no shortage of Kreegan Necromancers in Heroes IV and the Undead and Demons are one faction, it is clear that this a relative statement.

It says many, not most. Before the Reckoning they evidently practiced Necromancy to an EVEN GREATER DEGREE than they do in Heroes IV, which is saying something. Probably all the Kreegan heroes (like Calh) were Necromancers but those heroes (not Hexx) abandoned Necromancy.

It says the the demons slipped into Axeoth and that Calh was one of the first. Not that they escaped or fled into it during the Reckoning, but that some demons arrived there and not simultaneously (since Calh was "one of the first to slip").

It says slip because it is not likely that the inhabitants of Enroth-world were too happy on allowing Kreegans to escape in Axeoth.

You can also interpret it the way you say, except the problem is that the Kreegans can't have that ability or else they wouldn't have needed spaceships to arrive on Enroth-world in the first place. And did everyone leave Enroth or arrive in Axeoth simultaneously?

Earlier it refers to the "disastrous performance of the Kreegans in the years prior to the Reckoning being a sign of things to come and Calh being "quick to abandon a sinking ship".

He made some kind of a choice, about whether to go to the new world or to the Fiery Realm. And his discontent at the perceived incompetence of the Kreegan Empire (as a whole) led him to choose the former option, to abandon the sinking ship rather than go home *to* the Kreegan Empire in the form of the Fiery Realm.

Imps and Venom Spawns are not Kreegans and some number of them could have inhabited Axeoth (as we meet Imps in MM9, for example).

Show me one piece of evidence that Imps and Venom Spawns are not Kreegans? Nobody ever makes any distinction between them and Kreegans, thus you evidently pulled this whole thing completely out of thin air.

Yes Imps appear in Might and Magic XI, they fled there during the Reckoning.

See above, I pointed out that it is stated that Kreegans slipped into Axeoth in Calh's io (while we know from Half-Dead campaign that in the Reckoning they fled into Fiery Realm).

We also know they fled to the Fiery Realm AT the Reckoning from Half-Dead Campaign. They were believed to have perished IN the Reckoning, not BEFORE it.

WHERE? Show me the exact piece of text (not Nicolai assuming Castle Ironfist destuction in the Reckoning to be Kreegan attack) saying that the Kreegan were threat before the Reckoning.

Nicolai mentioning that he was discussing the Kreegan problem with his general before the destruction of Castle Ironfist which he falsely assumes to be their work. That is your another piece of text for you.



The Kreegans are directly and canonically stated to be a problem to Enroth's leaders immediately before the Reckoning.