What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

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Unread postby Corlagon » 10 Oct 2010, 20:46

Where do people get the idea that the Tomb of VARN is VARN-4 anyway? Morglin Ironfist came from VARN-4 only half a century or so before MM6 and Enroth was colonised over 1000 years before then. There's no way it could be the same ship even if we didn't know it was VARN-1904 to begin with.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 10 Oct 2010, 22:41

Zenofex wrote:Show us this "plenty" please. Something which actually says that the Kreegans arrived to Axeoth en masse from Enroth/Antagarich/Jedame and not your so-called "logical" conclusions.
Re-read the proceeding posts, I grow tired of re-posting things and I've got too many other people to respond to.
Zenofex wrote: There could have been insignificant amount of Kreegans who escaped through the portals to Axeoth, but nothing presenting "a force" or "a threat". See one of your own arguments below and be honest enough to use it not only where it fits your theorycrafting - no major power knows anything about any Kreegans left after the war of the Armageddon's Blade. If any Kreegan survived the Reckoning by crossing through the portals to Axeoth, he was either on his own or part of an insignificant group.
Here's what Gauldoth says about the Kreegans that didn't aside from those that left for the Fiery Realm.

"Their numbers have been diminished, for sure, and they are disorganized and weak,"

Their numbers have been reduced, is in relation to how things were in Enroth-world. That they are disorganized and weak in referring to their status as an oppressed group under the boot-heel of the Necromancers. A status they would later (in the next mission) try to overthrow.

But the key thing here Xenofex is what he is describing rather accurately describes their reduction from a faction (the Inferno) to a few creatures within the Death faction.
Zenofex wrote: What "invasion" are you talking about? The vast majory of Kreegans on Axeoth arrived there with Gauldoth. Gauldoth himself incorporporates them in his army and they settle in Necross after they arrive from the "fiery realm", there are no Kreegans to speak of among the undead until then. Have you played the whole campaign at all or you are again inventing stuff out of thin air?
An invasion that was suggested by other people but I am arguing against.

I have played the entire campaign but written a map charting the precise locations of all the scenarios as I have worked out.

Nothing you write there is ever mentioned in the entire campaign. If the player chooses to recruit demons in the Fiery Realm (I didn't waste time even going near the dwellings myself), then yes he could bring them back with him, but there wouldn't be enough to populate every Necropolis in the world, unless he spent about 10 years there perhaps.

Zenofex wrote: Your logic betrays you then. Kalibarr is nearly dead when Gauldoth finds him in the "fiery realm". Even if he was to be transported in a simple cart, he could have died. Also there is no way for you to know how these portals operate and for whose physical structure they are designed. Not to mention that you have no reason to believe that they are magical any more than to believe that they are technological. The portals between Enroth and Axeoth are designed by the Ancients (read - advanced technology), so it's not that difficult to imagine that the portal to the "fiery realm" is another part of the Web of the Worlds communication technology, which the Kreegans have taken for themselves. And the Angel Blade could as well be some variation of a control cube.
We know that the Kreegans dissapeared around the Might and Magic VIII time, that is canonical fact. We also know from other later facts that the Kreegans must have come back some time before the Reckoning. We also know that a large number of the Kreegans without any much preparation were able to at the Reckoning escape to the Fiery Realm.

Since traveling directly to the Fiery Realm nearly killed a powerful liche, it is clear the Kreegans were using portals to escape the Reckoning, portals to the Fiery Realm.

Since the Reckoning happened suddenly, it is unlikely they managed to create enough portals in such a short period of time, so it is probable that they used portals that already existed.

I reckon that they fled to the Fiery Realm to escape Escaton earlier and then when they realized that he was gone, they came back to wreck havoc in Enroth just before the Reckoning happened. When the Reckoning happened, most of them fled through the very means of escape they had earlier created against Escaton.

Macros the Black wrote: And Escaton, I know he's wired to proceed with the destruction of Enroth even if no Kreegans remain, but that could just be because he's a robot, he's given a task and thus performs it. If he was intentionally not allowed to stop in the destruction of Enroth, then why wouldn't he have known the Kreegans could return and/or trick him into thinking they were gone? It would have been useful knowledge for him. Because as it stands, apparently his program telling him to proceed with his task is not a full failsafe: he is still allowed to help others in undoing what he is doing. If he'd have known this information, he would not have helped out the Might and Magic 8 party.
Escaton might be a robot, but he's a sentient intelligent robot. Ask yourself, do the Ancients want to destroy Axeoth? No they don't. If there was no Kreegan invasion or it was contained, would the Ancients want Escaton to proceed with the 'Convergance'. They would allow him the freedom.

The reason they is that the Kreegans possess the ability to escape through portals to the Fiery Realm and seemingly dissapear. If Escaton was allowed to use his own judgment as to whether the Kreegans were there or not, he would swiftly conclude that the Kreegans were gone, go back to sleep and then the Kreegans would be back, but would be more careful not to set off the alarm next time.

Macros the Black wrote: 1. The Kreegans were there during the Reckoning, and escaped it.
2. The Kreegans had already fled before the Reckoning, so that they couldn't have perished during the Reckoning. Note that while he says MANY THOUGHT they had perished IN the Reckoning, he doesn't say the retreated to the safety of another realm IN the Reckoning.

So... yeah. Either explanation seems to work.
In itself you are right. But taken together with the obvious evidence of the presence of Kreegans (they are creatures in the game for heaven's sake!) and the references in the death-campaign, we know full well that some of the Kreegans escaped to Axeoth.

This means they were already there at the time of the Reckoning, which means that Might and Magic VIII folks were tricked or misled in some way.

Macros the Black wrote: I will say about Nicolai though, he is definately NOT completely sane. If you play Might and Magic 6 you'll know he escapes to join a circus as a sidequest and you have to get him back. The point is that Nicolai in Might and Magic 9 is confusing his current state with his childhood. That's why he wants to join the circus. He's also just standing there in the city telling people he's they're king. How long has he been there before you arrive? Days? Weeks? Months? The Reckoning can't have happened JUST before you arrived. Any sane man would have known he was at least in some other country, unless he had just arrived there. There's also a woman nearby who will tell you Nicolai is crazy, and while that can be written off as her not understanding what had happened to him, it is also a quite clear message from the makers of Might and Magic 9 that "hey, whatever he tells you take it with a grain of salt". So while what he's saying about the Kreegans MAY be true or otherwise indicate something else, you can't claim it to be a fact.
That he is sane is clear from this line.
Image

He has worked out that people of Chedian don't know what the Kreegans are. He knows he's in another country, thus in the important respect he's sane whether his traumatic experiences have caused him to "regress to childhood" or not.

He knows where he is, another land. That means he presumably has some kind of grip of past/present/future, even if a weak one. Thus what he says is probably reliable in the historical/memory sense.

He does get it somewhat mixed up, but that's not the same as inventing an entire history. When he managed to sort out past from present (when he is acting sane) why can't his word be relied upon.

Corlagon wrote: I don't know why you didn't say this two weeks ago. I bet the posters of this forum would've taken you far more seriously if you wrote in a hypothetical manner rather than a matter-of-fact one. Almost everything you wrote until now has been offered as though you think you are correct, i.e.
Everything anyone writes beyond simply posting the plain-text is obviously at least an interpretation of canon.

Why do I have to remind everyone every second line that I am writing down my own ideas and not Jon van Callaghem's?
Corlagon wrote: You, and as usual correct me if I'm wrong, apparently believe that
A) Escaton and the Ironfists were totally wrong in MM8, the Kreegans of MM6/7/H3 "faked their deaths" and were never really expunged from Enroth at all - contrary to canonical sources (MM8).
B) The misguided Enrothians Gauldoth mentioned were absolutely right and these invading Kreegans were around to see/perish in the the Reckoning: they fled to the safety of the Fiery Realm ca 1175 AS, contrary to canonical sources (MM8).
C) Before the Reckoning, these Kreegans felled Castle Ironfist with an Earthquake spell, Heroes III-style, and "cast Nicolai into Axeoth" - contrary to canonical sources (Tim Lang).
D) There were Kreegans from the Enrothian invasion present everywhere in Lodwar, (who were conspicuously never mentioned until the Half-Dead campaign) including the "demon warrior".
E) Gauldoth didn't take any Kreegans back with him to Axeoth after he was done with the Fiery Realm, and to state that he did is "knowingly or unknowingly writing fan-fiction or theory that is illegitimate because it directly states contrary to canonical sources".

Hmm.
What I actually believe (at the moment, some of the above is old stuff I did hold but have dropped or revised).

A) The Kreegans upon detecting the imminent arrival of Escaton began the construction of portals to the Fiery Realm inside their Infernos with which to escape. Having left en-masse in this manner, the inhabitants of Enroth-world (including Escaton); around the time of Might and Magic VIII were mistakenly led to believe that in addition to the correct belief that the Kreegans were gone that they were gone for good.

This was not probably their deliberate intention, it was a side effect of their fleeing what they believed was a doomed world. When to their surprise the world was not destroyed, the Kreegans returned to Enroth-world in the same manner they arrived.

B) That the Kreegans were around at the time of the Reckoning is clear from the fact that some misguided people believed that they were destroyed at that time and that Gauldoth corrects them. Not only are there Kreegans in Axeoth, disorganized and weak; but some fled to the Fiery Realm. This is canonically stated in Heroes IV and the contradiction with Might and Magic VIII is resolved above.

C) I do not believe that anything other than the Reckoning actually happened to Nicolai. But that he believes that the Kreegans cast an earthquake spell and stormed Castle Ironfist is canonical fact.

That he believes this, reveals something about a gap in lore, what went on Enroth before the Reckoning. Since Nicolai arrives at this particular false notion among others; it reveals that not only were the Kreegans present in Enroth-world at the time of the Reckoning (we know this already), but that they were in Enroth and sufficiently strong that this objective (taking Castle Ironfist) could actually have happened at a moments notice.

D) It is utterly self-evident that there are Kreegans/demons throughout Axeoth, because they appear over the world in Heroes IV. They only reason they are not mentioned, is that what is mentioned is of course what is relevant to those mentioning. Unless you are a necromancer (no necromancer player-character appears before Death Campaign) demons are not of any particular concern.

E) Gauldoth may or may not have taken some demons with him, depending on how the player behaves during his stay in the Fiery Realm. If they behaved like I did, then they completely ignored the Kreegan dwellings and proceeded to rescue Kalibarr immediately having already had an army big enough.

In character, that is a very realistic way to behave, as Gauldoth doesn't want his master to suffer a minute more than is necessary.

But even if he did, they is not only no canonical reference and unless he spent 10 years there tecruiting demons, he would still not have recruited enough demons to make any serious difference to Axeoth.
Corlagon wrote: I believe at least a fair number of the Kreegans did land on Axeoth, but it seems the ones that weren't obliterated by the Ancients were later killed off by the colonists, leaving very few survivors until all the Gauldoth business. I think there is a mention or two in MM9 of otherworldly demons fighting legendary heroes and getting brutally slain, like the bit about Broderick and Nodens from some artifact description. Baron Von Tarkin had also destroyed an entire faction of what-could-be-Kreegans in his nation of Korresan, led by a Devil named Maximillian Devlos, centuries prior to his campaign.
It's this reference.

Image

'Poor Devil', is a RL English expression that means a person in a pitiable situation. It does not mean the person is an actual devil, indeed the Baron von Tarkin is probably a human who was overthrown by the unnamed Liche who then assumed his title as a trophy as he converted the population into undead.

The later bit about Maximillian Devlos happened later and since it involves demons must have happened since the Reckoning, it reads years not centuries or even decades and it's been at least 2 decades since the Reckoning (given the length of Heroes IV campaigns). I believe that likely Maximillian Devlos is a vampire or a lich (else he wouldn't be in Korrasan), his crime was to attempt to introduce demons into Korrasan in emulation of other Death factions.

As is rather clearly stated, they are the "minions of demon-kind" nor demons. They are the servants of the demons, which is how Baron sees them and he has eliminated them 'forever' because he understands that allowing any demons more powerful than imps (judging from the town building restrictions) threatens rebellion and chaos (and besides they are alive).
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Unread postby Corlagon » 11 Oct 2010, 14:17

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Everything anyone writes beyond simply posting the plain-text is obviously at least an interpretation of canon.

Why do I have to remind everyone every second line that I am writing down my own ideas and not Jon van Callaghem (Caneghem?)'s?
It should be obvious: because Newcomer John Doe or Neophyte Joe Public can walk in here at any second, look at all these non-disclaimered theories you've written (several of which we've so far proven to be wrong or way off course) and accept them as fact because you write them as though they are facts. If you're posting theories, state that they're theories - we aren't psychics.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:'Poor Devil', is a RL English expression that means a person in a pitiable situation.
Thanks but I'm very well aware of that - I believe it's an example of adianoeta, and probably the one well-written blurb in Winds of War at that ;)

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Unread postby Pol » 11 Oct 2010, 20:42

Escaton might be a robot, but he's a sentient intelligent robot. Ask yourself, do the Ancients want to destroy Axeoth? No they don't. If there was no Kreegan invasion or it was contained, would the Ancients want Escaton to proceed with the 'Convergance'. They would allow him the freedom.
I quite like that hypothesis, and grieve for that here weren't HeroesV (or MM) from NWC. This probably strike within a very probable direction.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 12 Oct 2010, 11:53

Corlagon wrote: It should be obvious: because Newcomer John Doe or Neophyte Joe Public can walk in here at any second, look at all these non-disclaimered theories you've written (several of which we've so far proven to be wrong or way off course) and accept them as fact because you write them as though they are facts. If you're posting theories, state that they're theories - we aren't psychics.
What, do I have to color code everything I write or something. It should be obvious that unless I am directly referencing something it is at least a theory.

Yes a newbie might turn up and agree with my theories, I fail to see the problem. I might have someone that actually agrees with me for once.
Corlagon wrote:Thanks but I'm very well aware of that - I believe it's an example of adianoeta, and probably the one well-written blurb in Winds of War at that ;)
Corlagon, I was just writing that for the benefit of all foreign people who might not know that.
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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 14 Oct 2010, 23:51

Yes a newbie might turn up and agree with my theories, I fail to see the problem. I might have someone that actually agrees with me for once.
Only a newbie could agree with you. Because you clearly don't have any clear knowledge of MM lore.

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Unread postby XEL II » 15 Oct 2010, 11:43

It appears that an extremely small (Calh, Hexx, Ash and Gargareen among them) amount of Kregans survived the events of AB and fought on Mutare's side guarding the Vial of Dragon's Blood in CotD. In the Reckoning they escaped into the Fiery Realm. When Gauldoth opened a temporary portal to Axeoth, some Kreegans, including the Enrothiat ones, as well as the Ice Demons settled in Necross.

It is implied in Hexx's bio:
Hexx's bio wrote:Hexx has always been incapable of dominating his fellow demons physically, so for the longest time he was forced to do the jobs no one else wanted. After the Reckoning, many demons shied away from necromancy. Not Hexx. This was his chance to gain power, and his chance for revenge.
And partially in Fiona's:
Fiona's bio wrote:When the Kreegan empire crumbled after the Reckoning, Fiona made an attempt to return to human society here in the new world. Only a few months later, this harsh woman was running from the law. Now, she accepts the fact that she will never fight with her people again.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 16 Oct 2010, 18:42

XEL II wrote:It appears that an extremely small (Calh, Hexx, Ash and Gargareen among them) amount of Kregans survived the events of AB and fought on Mutare's side guarding the Vial of Dragon's Blood in CotD. In the Reckoning they escaped into the Fiery Realm. When Gauldoth opened a temporary portal to Axeoth, some Kreegans, including the Enrothiat ones, as well as the Ice Demons settled in Necross.

It is implied in Hexx's bio:
Hexx's bio wrote:Hexx has always been incapable of dominating his fellow demons physically, so for the longest time he was forced to do the jobs no one else wanted. After the Reckoning, many demons shied away from necromancy. Not Hexx. This was his chance to gain power, and his chance for revenge.
And partially in Fiona's:
Fiona's bio wrote:When the Kreegan empire crumbled after the Reckoning, Fiona made an attempt to return to human society here in the new world. Only a few months later, this harsh woman was running from the law. Now, she accepts the fact that she will never fight with her people again.
How can the Kreegan Empire crumble AFTER the Reckoning if there is no significant number of Kreegans in Axeoth?

There is no evidence whatsoever in the game that any great number of demons passed through the portal Gauldoth created into Axeoth. And there is also no reference to the portal being temporary either.

There is clear evidence from the game itself that no greater numbers of demons existed in Axeoth after the portal opened than after-wards.

If such an event as Kreegan mass-settlement actually happened, Gauldoth would have seen this as the cause of the demon revolt and not his masters weakness. As it is, the only thing that Gauldoth sees as changing is the ascension of his weak master to the throne, not that the demons are stronger or more numerous.
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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Oct 2010, 14:38

Ice Demons were brought into Necross from the Fiery Realm and in Calh's bio it is said that he was one of the first Kreegans to slip into Axeoth. Gauldoth says that portal is temporary.
How can the Kreegan Empire crumble AFTER the Reckoning if there is no significant number of Kreegans in Axeoth?
There are Kreegans in Axeoth by the time of the third map of Half-Dead campaign.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 17 Oct 2010, 14:43

Loremaster Numero Uno wrote:How can the Kreegan Empire crumble AFTER the Reckoning if there is no significant number of Kreegans in Axeoth?
Because the "Kreegan Empire" isn't necessarily limited to one group on Enroth or Axeoth or Ardon or any single world.

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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Oct 2010, 15:04

Actually, it obviously refers to Enrotian Kreegans in HoMM IV biographies.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 17 Oct 2010, 15:23

It's clear that there's no way in hell (pun intended) that that's the case. Slayer is actually right here: Eeofol, etc. can't have perished after the Reckoning. An empire of Kreegans can't die if there aren't any on the planet. So either it's not referring to that empire, or it's an oversight. No need to confuse the situation further by saying some of them survived until after 1172 - that destroys MM8.

It's reasonably plausible that the "Kreegan Empire" mentioned here is talking about the Kreegans' followers - fragments of the Cult of Baa, the Humanists, etc.

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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Oct 2010, 15:29

That's actually no different form what I said :)
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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Oct 2010, 15:31

Corlagon wrote:No need to confuse the situation further by saying some of them survived un€til after 1172 - that destroys MM8.
Why is that? An extremely small number of them could have survived. It's actually confirmed in Hexx's bio that there were surviving Kreegans.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 17 Oct 2010, 15:32

I think we have a misunderstanding? You said they fled Enroth during the Reckoning (which sort of validates the bio but kills MM8), I say it was earlier.

I suppose it's plausible that two or three of them survived, but it's not really substantiated. All Hexx's bio says is that demons stopped practicing necromancy after the Reckoning. It doesn't say where they were, when they left Enroth, whether they were on Enroth during the Reckoning, or anything like that.

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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Oct 2010, 15:52

But why would it put emphasis on the Reckoning, if it weren't about the Enrothian Kreegans. If it was refering to the Fiery Realm's Kreegans there is no point in mentioning Reckoning.

Again, why would the survival of very few (to the point they weren't found in Eeofol) Kreegans kill MM8? They weren't any real force or threat to Enroth. Besides, Calh and Ash clearly survived.
Last edited by XEL II on 18 Oct 2010, 05:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 17 Oct 2010, 16:08

Because everyone in MM8 is singing from the following hymn sheet:
MM8 history wrote:The devils, or "Kreegan," came with it. My masters made me as a weapon of last resort against them. If they appear on a world incapable of defending itself, I am called to make sure they do not propagate."
"But we did deal with them! Why, just last year, Catherine Ironfist exterminated them. Your job has already been done."
"This I know," said the Destroyer. "However, once I am called, I cannot be recalled. There were still Kreegan alive when my mission was assigned. So am I designed by my masters who have suffered horribly at the hands of the Kreegans."
There's very very little room for ambiguity about it, with everyone - including this uber-powerful robot who's apparently incapable of lying - saying "the Kreegan are dust", "the Kreegan are exterminated", "there are no Kreegan alive here anymore", "no Kreegan on our world" and so on.

I think it's obligatory to take MM8 at face value and work the other minor bits and pieces around what it says. So as far as I'm concerned, Calh, Nymus and Ash can only have survived because they headed for the Fiery Realm after Lucifer's death at the end of 1171. Gauldoth didn't say otherwise, Hexx's bio didn't say otherwise, Fiona's bio and Nicolai did imply otherwise but they only implied as such and can be countered or reasoned away to make things work. I insist that it beats saying "Escaton is wrong".

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 17 Oct 2010, 17:11

Actually, what ARE Kreegans doing practising necromancy?.. They weren't associated with it at all in HoMM3 and MMs.

Also, they could have fled not only to the Fiery Realm, but also to Planes, mostly the Plane of Fire (since they have Efreet allies, they must have got there at some point anyway).

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Unread postby XEL II » 17 Oct 2010, 20:10

Esaton isn't wrong, Kreegan race on Enroth is indeed exterminated. But tha doesn't mean that very, very ew of them couldn't survive. After all, no one has ever done the exact count of all Kreegans. Hexx's bio does suggest that some Kreegans were alive by the time of Reckoning, since it is clearly refering to Enrothian Kreegans, otherwise here is no sense to mention Reckoning.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 17 Oct 2010, 20:28

XEL II wrote:Esaton isn't wrong, Kreegan race on Enroth is indeed exterminated. But tha doesn't mean that very, very ew of them couldn't survive.
Yes it does, that's exactly what it means by definition... Either they're exterminated - all dead and gone - or they're not. They can't be "a bit exterminated" in much the same way that one can't be a "little pregnant" or "kind of dead". If you're saying any of them are still traipsing around on the surface of Enroth after the Night of the Crystal, you're saying Escaton is incorrect by extension.
The bio isn't necessarily salient in comparison; you know as well as I do that Terry Ray probably didn't play MM8.


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