What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Secret_Holder
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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 29 Sep 2010, 23:29

If the Kreegans need a Volcano for something like geothermal energy, then why does Colony Zod not have loads of volcanoes around it?
Maybe because they don't.

So... they're volcanoes are they? Proof?

No humans in Eofol? Here are some human Inferno heroes, also called Heretics:
Fiona
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Pyre
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Ayden
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Olema
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Xarfax
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Unread postby Bandobras Took » 29 Sep 2010, 23:41

Err . . . Colony Zod is near a volcano -- remember that big mountain with all the dragons around it? I mean, it's not Mount Thunderfist, but it's sufficiently nearby.
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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Sep 2010, 04:53

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Image
Good Lord, you're posting this picture for like a million time!
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Sep 2010, 04:59

Colony Zod is not Inferno, it's a Kreegan colony. It is their primary stronghold in Eeofol, where they main (after Hive's destruction) forces are staioned. In MM7 Lords of Harmondale destroy Colony Zod using blaster weapons (some taken from Kreegan) to prevent Kreegans from regaining their strength after Hive's destruction and devastating the planet.

Infernos are castles of Kreegan clans of Eeofol, forces under command of Lucifer Kreegan III, stationed east of Colony Zod. The clans consist of some Kreegans and their subordinate creatures (Inferno creatures). After Colony Zod's destruction Lucifer solidified his rule over the clans and became King of Eofol.
Last edited by XEL II on 30 Sep 2010, 08:25, edited 2 times in total.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 30 Sep 2010, 05:14

Lucifer didn't know about the Sword of Frost, did he?

Interesting thing about the architecture being Eeofol's. Never thought of it that way before.

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Unread postby theLuckyDragon » 30 Sep 2010, 07:13

Slayer wrote:Because the whole universe was hardly written by one person, it is necessary sometimes to invent extra stuff in order to bring all references into harmony.
That all works fine in your imagination. Other people here obviously disagree, and strongly. Why must you continue to repeat your arguments millions of times if they are not convinced by them?
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Unread postby Zenofex » 30 Sep 2010, 10:25

Interesting thing about the architecture being Eeofol's.
It is very unlikely. The native population of Eeofol before the Kreegans' invasion were the Halfings and the landscape was similar to Erathia's - neither of these have anything to do with the massive, burnt and intimidating structures of the Inferno towns. Of course this does not mean that there are things like "Gate Kreegans".

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Unread postby Tress » 30 Sep 2010, 11:14

Well they look different because mm and homm have different auditory of players. They purposefully avoid mentioning sci fi in homm.
Theoretically we should consider mm as main canon since we see events directly and probably see what we aren't supposed to see. In homm hover we see through more regular point of view. Then again inconsistencies like snowy/sandy bracada(celeste looks nothing like tower either) makes eofol not only exception so it is kinda pointless to try and link both together. Player must accept some "suspension of disbelief" to link them together, and not try to rationalize Kreegan origin.

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Unread postby XEL II » 30 Sep 2010, 11:27

In a hundred time, snowy/sandy Bracada is NOT an inconsistency. Bracada is sandy in Bracada desert, which is located in the northeastern part of Bracada, surrounding Spyre.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 01 Oct 2010, 17:09

Secret_Holder wrote:
Maybe because they don't.

So... they're volcanoes are they? Proof?

No humans in Eofol? Here are some human Inferno heroes, also called Heretics:
Fiona
Image
Pyre
Image
Ayden
Image
Olema
Image
Xarfax
Image
Image

This is an Inferno on a non-volcanic terrain background yet it has volcanoes around it. Yes they are volcanoes.

The humans you are mentioning come from Erathia; it is mentioned in one of their bios, I think Fiona's
XEL II wrote: Good Lord, you're posting this picture for like a million time!
If I keep on posting it perhaps it's because I don't get the impression people are actually taking into account what is actually said.

The Kreegans create volcanoes. They don't just areas that happen to be volcanic, they actually MAKE them. If these are are biological creatures with biological motives would they actually go through what must be an extreme expenditure of time AND resources in order to ruin a particular area of land. The answer is of course that they need an Inferno, but if a Volcano is "just" an outpost, then why the volcanoes?

Add in the bit about Armageddon's Blade and setting the "world on fire" and you can get the picture that the Inferno-dwelling Kreegans are clearly not the same creatures as the Kreegans that originally arrived from space.

XEL II wrote: That all works fine in your imagination. Other people here obviously disagree, and strongly. Why must you continue to repeat your arguments millions of times if they are not convinced by them?
I will repeat my arguments until such a time as I am satisfied that people have actually read what I am writing and thought of a response that requires me to change my arguments.

My arguments have indeed changed over time, originally I advocated the concept that the Kreegans actually 'shape-shifted'.

The people here that you are describing would rather declare that Might and Magic is DA BEST (not including Might and Magic IX) and just pretend there is no problem at all in need of an imaginative solution.

It's not a contest here between my solution and rival solutions, it's between my present solution and people who appear to have substituted an arbitrary heirachy for imagination. People who have no solution at all.
Zenofex wrote: It is very unlikely. The native population of Eeofol before the Kreegans' invasion were the Halfings and the landscape was similar to Erathia's - neither of these have anything to do with the massive, burnt and intimidating structures of the Inferno towns. Of course this does not mean that there are things like "Gate Kreegans".
Why would the Might and Magic Kreegans (Hive-Kreegans) bother to expend resources to create volcanoes that would destroy all the resources that are already present in an area? They can't eat lava can they?

Given that you accept accept that the Hive-Kreegans are highly advanced, biological but environmentally devastating creatures (high-tech locusts), the question then remains why the act of creating Infernos, would be done by the Hive-Kreegans?

Locusts might make an area barren, but they do not begin by making the area barren. The Kreegans of Heroes III do just that, they begin by creating a volcano which has the effect of making the area barren before they have even really established themselves.

Throw in the Armageddon's Blade and Lucifer Kreegan 'setting the world on fire' and things make even less biological sense.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 01 Oct 2010, 20:09

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:If I keep on posting it perhaps it's because I don't get the impression people are actually taking into account what is actually said.

The Kreegans create volcanoes. They don't just areas that happen to be volcanic, they actually MAKE them. If these are are biological creatures with biological motives would they actually go through what must be an extreme expenditure of time AND resources in order to ruin a particular area of land. The answer is of course that they need an Inferno, but if a Volcano is "just" an outpost, then why the volcanoes?
If you actually read the piece of text you keep posting, you'll see it says "Our UNDERLINGS have done well..." The underlings of Eeofol, i.e. not necessarily the Kreegans themselves. Even if the Kreegans were responsible for summoning the volcano - so what? They conjured it up to appease their Efreeti and Gog allies from the Plane of Fire. Doesn't require or prove a whole boatload of wild theories about portals and biological origins. Note that there were no Efreeti or Gogs supporting the Kreegans at Colony Zod or Sweetwater, and hence no volcanoes were really required.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The people here that you are describing would rather declare that Might and Magic is DA BEST (not including Might and Magic IX) and just pretend there is no problem at all in need of an imaginative solution.
When you're trying to make sense of a fictional universe it's always a good idea to construe or take for granted that there are no contradictions in the story. Even if that weren't so, there is no problem - or if there is one, you're having a hard time making clear what exactly it is. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make any more. It's still that made-up Gating Kreegans idea, isn't it? This text about summoning a volcano isn't about to support it.

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Unread postby Zenofex » 01 Oct 2010, 20:10

First, I want to make clear that I'm answering you because I've just finished my dinner, I don't feel sleepy enough to go to bed and have nothing interesting to do at the moment - i.e. I'm just wasting my time. Otherwise it's completely unreasonable to keep arguing with someone so persistent in his unwillingness to learn something before advocating its (imaginary) opposite.
Why would the Might and Magic Kreegans (Hive-Kreegans) bother to expend resources to create volcanoes that would destroy all the resources that are already present in an area? They can't eat lava can they?
Your whole argumentation is built around some message from the begining of the "Dungeons and Devils" sub-campaign. Now let's apply your own reasoning to it without arbitrarily dissociating pieces of information:
Sentence one speaks about underlings that have done well. Is it said devils or Kreegans? No, it isn't. Who are they? Couldn't they be some sorcerers (say, remnants from the Cult of Baa, of which you probably have no knowledge) who wanted to help their demonic/divine masters (as they percieve them) by providing them with usable fortification? They could. Are they really some sorcerers who wanted to help their demonic/divine masters by providing them with usable fortification? We don't know, the text isn't saying a word about that.
Sentence two says that the actions of the underlings mentioned in sentence one had resulted in an errection of a fort from the volcano. Thus the purpose of the volcano was to create a fort.
Sentence three is a brief strategicl overview, which says that the ultimate purpose of the actions described in the previous two sentences is the elimination of Eathia's allies, the elves of AvLee. Does it say anything about transforming the whole region into fiery wasteland as a final aim of the operation? It doesn't. Does it say anything more than what it is saying? It doesn't.
Add in the bit about Armageddon's Blade and setting the "world on fire" and you can get the picture that the Inferno-dwelling Kreegans are clearly not the same creatures as the Kreegans that originally arrived from space
Have you played the Armageddon's Blade campaign? If you have, you should've noticed that there is next to no explanation of the actual purpose of Armageddon's Blade creation and that the story is being told mainly from Gelu's, Catherine's and Roland's point of view. Inferno's bit is presented by Xeron, who happens to be half-Kreegan. Lucifer Kreegan isn't given many opportunities to explain his actions - actually he almost doesn't speak of them. We know that Armageddon's Blade should "set the world on fire", but absolutely nothing else. From here the speculation can begin and as I said previously - the explanation that the Kreegans, after suffering two serious losses, wanted to get rid of the planet's natives quickly and efficiently is as good as any other. You are speculating, but without taking into account the actual lore of the M&M universe, i.e. you are creating a fan-fiction. Many people told you that already because it's a fact.
And among other things, we have no idea what do the Kreegans eat, if they eat at all. I can't remember a single line of text where it's said that they have digestive system similar to the humans'/mamals'/insects'/whatever. They are beings from outer space, for Baa's sake!

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 01 Oct 2010, 20:43

Actually, I think that the Armageddon's Blade comes from the Ancients. At least that's what it says when you pick the thing up, if I remember correctly.

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Unread postby Zenofex » 01 Oct 2010, 20:52

I can't remember myself, it's been a while, but it is possible. It's made of three artefacts which could as well be from before the Silence. If I recall correctly, some of the otherwise "medieval"-looking artefact-class equipment in M&M had something like "property of VARN armoury" sign on it. And the "Letter from Lucifer Kreegan" to Xeron shows that Lucifer is quite knowledgeable regarding how Armageddon's Blade is supposed to be assembled. But I don't think that this can be proven for certain.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 01 Oct 2010, 21:07

It's possible, here's the text you get if you pick it up outside of the campaign:
Heroes III wrote:"Deep beneath the earth, you find a vault of the Ancients from before the Silence. Inside, you find a sealed casket, deeply etched with dire warnings. Ignoring them, you break the seal. Inside, you find Armageddon's Blade."

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 01 Oct 2010, 21:38

Zenofex wrote:If I recall correctly, some of the otherwise "medieval"-looking artefact-class equipment in M&M had something like "property of VARN armoury" sign on it.
Either made in the Heavenly Forges of Governor Padish a few years AS (most sublime things) or made by the Ancients themselves (even earlier, most gold-nano things), so yes, that's true.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 01 Oct 2010, 23:21

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
Image

This is an Inferno on a non-volcanic terrain background yet it has volcanoes around it. Yes they are volcanoes.
You didnøt really do what I think you did?
OK, two can play that game:

Image

OMG!!! The wizards create snowy mountains when they build a Tower in a grassy field!! Incredible!!

;|

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Unread postby Talin_Trollbane » 02 Oct 2010, 00:06

are you guys really trying to pass off graphical mismatches/shortcomings as lore now?
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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 02 Oct 2010, 00:27

No, just Slayer...

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 02 Oct 2010, 15:26

Corlagon wrote: If you actually read the piece of text you keep posting, you'll see it says "Our UNDERLINGS have done well..." The underlings of Eeofol, i.e. not necessarily the Kreegans themselves. Even if the Kreegans were responsible for summoning the volcano - so what? They conjured it up to appease their Efreeti and Gog allies from the Plane of Fire. Doesn't require or prove a whole boatload of wild theories about portals and biological origins. Note that there were no Efreeti or Gogs supporting the Kreegans at Colony Zod or Sweetwater, and hence no volcanoes were really required.
:) :) :) :) Finally a response with content that requires thought to reply to.

I do not claim to know the identity of the 'underlings' that we are talking about. We only know that they are working for the Kreegans that inhabit the Inferno cities. In this sense we don't need to know who they are nor need to.

You mention that they created the volcano to appease their allies from the "plane of fire" but why did they collect those allies in the first place, they certainly didn't arrive with them as you point out with Sweetwater?

If they have to go to so great lengths to create a volcano to summon them up, they must have grown awfully dependent on them, which given that those creatures are able to travel about freely asks the question of why weren't they at Colony Zog?

If they are clearly acting seperately, what is the functional difference between your "allies from the plane of fire" and my "Gate-Kreegans" other than that the former is a sentence and the latter a word?

But that's not the main problem. One problem is that there were clearly no Kreegan forces present in any kind of serious number in that region BEFORE an Inferno was constructed there by our mysterious 'underlings'.

There are plenty of human and elven forts in that area that any Kreegan army arriving in the area could have captured as a base instead for a fraction of the cost, had been able to move forces freely to that area.
Corlagon wrote: When you're trying to make sense of a fictional universe it's always a good idea to construe or take for granted that there are no contradictions in the story. Even if that weren't so, there is no problem - or if there is one, you're having a hard time making clear what exactly it is. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make any more. It's still that made-up Gating Kreegans idea, isn't it? This text about summoning a volcano isn't about to support it.
If there were no contradictions in the story then I would not be writing here trying to resolve them.

The problem is that I have compiled basically a small mountain of individual pieces of evidence which all fits together to the conclusion I am suggesting, but in themselves as individuals are not sufficient to prove any grand theory.

If you are having trouble working out what I am trying to make, perhaps I should start a new thread and compile the various bits of evidence together on the OP. Do you think I should do that?
Xenofex wrote: Your whole argumentation is built around some message from the begining of the "Dungeons and Devils" sub-campaign. Now let's apply your own reasoning to it without arbitrarily dissociating pieces of information:
Sentence one speaks about underlings that have done well. Is it said devils or Kreegans? No, it isn't. Who are they? Couldn't they be some sorcerers (say, remnants from the Cult of Baa, of which you probably have no knowledge) who wanted to help their demonic/divine masters (as they percieve them) by providing them with usable fortification? They could. Are they really some sorcerers who wanted to help their demonic/divine masters by providing them with usable fortification? We don't know, the text isn't saying a word about that.
Sentence two says that the actions of the underlings mentioned in sentence one had resulted in an errection of a fort from the volcano. Thus the purpose of the volcano was to create a fort.
Sentence three is a brief strategicl overview, which says that the ultimate purpose of the actions described in the previous two sentences is the elimination of Eathia's allies, the elves of AvLee. Does it say anything about transforming the whole region into fiery wasteland as a final aim of the operation? It doesn't. Does it say anything more than what it is saying? It doesn't.
No it isn't. My whole argumentation is built around Heroes IV Death Campaign and Might and Magic IX. The stuff about the Fiery Realm being the ultimate result of the Kreegans domination. Whether the Kreegans wish it or not, turning the world into a fiery wasteland is the ultimate result of Kreegan domination because that's what the Fiery Realm *IS*.

The purpose of the action is to eliminate the Gold Dragon Queen, in order to shatter the alliance between AvLee and the Gold and Green Dragons at least temporarily in order to keep them from interfering in Erathia as Nighon and Eofol march on Steadwick.

The reason I posted the Screen-shot is only because it is the only piece of evidence I have as the origins of the Inferno cities in Heroes III.

There are plenty of quite functional human and elven forts the Kreegans could have captured in the area. Creating a volcano cannot be an easy feat (else we'd be able to use it to destroy annoying well-garrisoned fortified cities in the game). The idea that the mysterious underlings creating a new volcano just to make a fort is a laughable idea.
Xenofex wrote: Have you played the Armageddon's Blade campaign? If you have, you should've noticed that there is next to no explanation of the actual purpose of Armageddon's Blade creation and that the story is being told mainly from Gelu's, Catherine's and Roland's point of view. Inferno's bit is presented by Xeron, who happens to be half-Kreegan. Lucifer Kreegan isn't given many opportunities to explain his actions - actually he almost doesn't speak of them. We know that Armageddon's Blade should "set the world on fire", but absolutely nothing else. From here the speculation can begin and as I said previously - the explanation that the Kreegans, after suffering two serious losses, wanted to get rid of the planet's natives quickly and efficiently is as good as any other. You are speculating, but without taking into account the actual lore of the M&M universe, i.e. you are creating a fan-fiction. Many people told you that already because it's a fact.
And among other things, we have no idea what do the Kreegans eat, if they eat at all. I can't remember a single line of text where it's said that they have digestive system similar to the humans'/mamals'/insects'/whatever. They are beings from outer space, for Baa's sake!
It's simple enough. Logically the Kreegans must eat more or less the same things as other biological creatures or else their multiplication and expansion would be no threat to those other creatures.

Lava cannot be what they eat, because were that the case being immune to fire as they are they could just jump into the nearest volcano and swim around in the magma for all eternity.

You don't compete with biological lifeforms that eat normal stuff, if you don't eat that stuff. Different niche.
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