What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 28 Sep 2010, 18:57

You want evidence. Start with Heroes III, about there is absolutely no evidence in the entire game that the Kreegans have queens, are hive-based and even come from space. All evidence in the game points to the Kreegans emerging from portals to another realm, one of the dwellings is actually explicitly named a "demon gate". The Kreegans come from Infernos, the only comment on the origins of the Infernos is this.
I'm going to be blunt here. Shut up for one, and listen to what's being said.
I've already posted a picture of the Kreegan queen in the Kreegan hive, so you're very wrong on two accounts.
Watch the intro to MM6, you'll clearly see Kreegans are from outer space (if you were from Enroth of course).
No evidence points to them coming from portals. You're screenshot just said they erected a volcano an built a fort. Nothing about portals. So not wrong, but not correct either on this one.
Pleae, play MM6 ;|

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Unread postby Tress » 28 Sep 2010, 20:50

think it was Gauldoth himself who said "without Suraze, I have no chance of defeating Kalibarr before the Convergence strikes" or something to that effect. Of course you can actually win the scenario without his help, but that's immaterial.
There is really few thinking/inteligent antagonists that would be evil just for being evils sake no matter their own welfare, pretty much only chaotic demons like ones in homm5 but even they care if they die, or get hurt. To quote one movie -
"Now that I am rich, I suddenly care if universe gets destroyed."
Suraze lived on the same world after all, getting pounded by life consuming entity from some weird plane is bad news even for Kreegan.
Considering whats at stake he could try to muster other power players like Great arcan with whom they had rather neutral relationship.
No evidence points to them coming from portals. You're screenshot just said they erected a volcano an built a fort. Nothing about portals. So not wrong, but not correct either on this one.
I think Kreegans are meant as race with good knowledge of portal technology. For example their castles feature "gate" building. Also can speculate(isnt half of this thread speculation after all?) that Kreegan have part of Ancient gate network at their disposal that is redesigned for their purposes or they have built their own version of network based on Ancient technology. Former is also somewhat supported (If i remember correctly) by Coraks statements that Kreegans had infiltrated gate network. Possibly they flew to Enroth in asteroid ship and built gates to their network to escape reckoning. Also ancients themselves fly with ships and sets portals up only later, can assume Kreegans act similarly.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 29 Sep 2010, 00:08

The Demon Gate could be an actual "gate", but I have doubts wether the demons are actual Kreegans or just plain demons.
There is no volcanic structure in the inferno, other than the "lake of fire".
If the Kreegans had corrupted some of the Ancients' gates, they would be technological not magical gates.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 29 Sep 2010, 03:39

Yea, but it's not easy to distinguish the two. Either way the result is the same, and the telepoerter technology could very well be hidden.

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Unread postby XEL II » 29 Sep 2010, 04:19

Horned Demons from Inferno are actually created by Pit Lords (raising demons rom the dead ability). Demon Gate appear to be ame thing as Inferno's portals. Kreegan use them to summon reinforcements to battle (this is adressed to in Inferno's description from Xanthor).
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Tress » 29 Sep 2010, 07:01

If the Kreegans had corrupted some of the Ancients' gates, they would be technological not magical gates.
In NWC world, line between those two specially if we compare homm and mm is pretty much unseen. In mm7 we see some technology and still many thing is written on magical means, while in homm we see everything as magical. In inferno I haven't see in zerg like pulsing hives, but we still consider them the same. Closest thing I see in inferno that looks like technology is palace of damned that kinda of, vaguely looks like reactor.
Imo it's bit flaw in story telling to appease both homm and mm auditory as it was suggested, but you can tie both together if someone wish it bad enough.
All evidence in the game points to the Kreegans emerging from portals to another realm, one of the dwellings is actually explicitly named a "demon gate". The Kreegans come from Infernos, the only comment on the origins of the Infernos is this.
Not 100% sure, but I think that even in homm3 there was reference to night of shooting stars, so that proves outer space theory.

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Unread postby Zenofex » 29 Sep 2010, 08:43

Not 100% sure, but I think that even in homm3 there was reference to night of shooting stars, so that proves outer space theory
There is such reference, even more than one, though I can not quote them at the moment.
I think that this "gating" thing is getting way too far. The Kreegans could have captured part of the Ancients communication network (the portals in this case), but this does not mean that they can transport reinforcements directly to any outpost they build. Also, the Corak unit in the end of M&M 7 mentions that the portals are inaccessible without control cubes, so it's relatively safe to assume that at least part of the interstellar gates are blocked for the Kreegans. The Demon Gate and the Castle Gate in the Inferno town serve as local portals. The Infernos are bases of operation. The Kreegan population on Colony is limited to what the ships had on board, otherwise the planet would have been overrun quickly and decisively.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 29 Sep 2010, 17:01

Secret_Holder wrote:
You want evidence. Start with Heroes III, about there is absolutely no evidence in the entire game that the Kreegans have queens, are hive-based and even come from space. All evidence in the game points to the Kreegans emerging from portals to another realm, one of the dwellings is actually explicitly named a "demon gate". The Kreegans come from Infernos, the only comment on the origins of the Infernos is this.
I'm going to be blunt here. Shut up for one, and listen to what's being said.
I've already posted a picture of the Kreegan queen in the Kreegan hive, so you're very wrong on two accounts.
Watch the intro to MM6, you'll clearly see Kreegans are from outer space (if you were from Enroth of course).
No evidence points to them coming from portals. You're screenshot just said they erected a volcano an built a fort. Nothing about portals. So not wrong, but not correct either on this one.
Pleae, play MM6 ;|
Shut up and actually listen long enough to figure out that I agree with you that Kreegans originally arrived FROM space. I am tired of writing to people who seem not to have figured out that I do not dispute that the Kreegans arrived in Enroth from space and never did.

I was pointing to the screenshot as evidence to the sparsity of evidence to the origins of the Kreegans in Heroes III. What evidence there is suggests that the Kreegans come from the Inferno cities and that creating a volcano (which cannot be a small act of magic or technology) is key to creating a Inferno city.

This contrasts with Heroes IV where there is ample evidence as to the origins of the Kreegans (in the 'Fiery Realm). This has to be reconciled with Might and Magic lore as to the origins of the Kreegans in an even and fair way.
XEL II wrote: Horned Demons from Inferno are actually created by Pit Lords (raising demons rom the dead ability). Demon Gate appear to be ame thing as Inferno's portals. Kreegan use them to summon reinforcements to battle (this is adressed to in Inferno's description from Xanthor).
They can temporarily summon Horned Demons from the dead, but that is not the same as creating them permanently which requires a Demon Gate. Horned Demons then are created by Pit Lords from the dead, yet are summoned creatures, which means that those Kreegans much be attuned to necromancy in some way.

They can clearly exploit some kind magical energy caused by recent death to call Horned Demons from (where?). We must assume that both Horned Demons come from the same place and we know that they don't land from space-ships.
Zenofex wrote: There is such reference, even more than one, though I can not quote them at the moment.
I think that this "gating" thing is getting way too far. The Kreegans could have captured part of the Ancients communication network (the portals in this case), but this does not mean that they can transport reinforcements directly to any outpost they build. Also, the Corak unit in the end of M&M 7 mentions that the portals are inaccessible without control cubes, so it's relatively safe to assume that at least part of the interstellar gates are blocked for the Kreegans. The Demon Gate and the Castle Gate in the Inferno town serve as local portals. The Infernos are bases of operation. The Kreegan population on Colony is limited to what the ships had on board, otherwise the planet would have been overrun quickly and decisively.
The only reference I have to the origin of the Kreegans in Heroes III taken in it's scenario context says precisely that by creating a 'fort' (which in their case is an inferno, but who said the demons themselves use that term?) and a volcano they can call into existence an army. They do not march an army into Erathia and then set up a local fort as a base, they set up the fort AND the volcano and then create an army to carry out their objective (eliminating the gold and green dragons).

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Image

These underlings, whoever they are must have spent an awful lot of time and effort on creating this volcano, something that no-one is able to do in the game at all. Years of preparation and planning must have gone into this 'surgical strike', which strongly suggests that the Kreegans aren't able to otherwise reach the vicinity of the Gold Dragon without being intercepted. If they already have an army, why wait so many months in order to 'create' an army in a 'sparsely populated area of Erathia' all the while battling with local militias.

The original Hive-Kreegans were wiped out. But the creatures they wittingly or unwittingly summoned by magical means (I reckon the latter) continued to exist as they were summoned from portals (which is what the Inferno cities are) rather than operating in a normal biological fashion.

These Gate-Kreegans are far more numerous than the original Hive-Kreegans, but are also far weaker.

As for the nature of the portals, the Kreegans I believe have their own parallel network of portals connected to every planet "through" the magma in the middle of the planet. If you look at the "fiery" way that Heroes III and IV devils teleport you will see some visual evidence of this.

In a sense before the Ancients arrived, everything was the 'Fiery Realm' and so at core all things are connected together by what lies "beneath" the Ancients worlds. Only by sending creatures through space is it possible to "crack" the shell and unleash the power of the 'Fiery Realm' (where demons get their power from- Heroes IV) onto the world.

The Ancients knowing this placed defenses around their planets, which while they were not able to in the event of the shell being breached, to utterly eliminate anything that tries to get through (think Might and Magic VIII on a thankfully smaller scale).

However, by ensuring their creatures resemble sufficiently existing creatures (or at best an amalgamation of existing creatures), the defenses can be tricked. The drawbacks of this is that the resulting creatures are weaker than they would otherwise be if the Fiery Realm had complete freedom.

The original Kreegans are stronger (hence immunity to fire etc) and more advanced (high-tech) because the Ancients had not expected the Kreegans to arrive from "above" the planet rather than "below" it.

If they had tried to manifest the same creatures from "below" (through the portals) those creatures would have been swiftly eliminated.
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Unread postby Zenofex » 29 Sep 2010, 17:37

@Slayer, your knowledge is based on the Restoration of Erathia campaign from HoMM III and a half-baked M&M game. Stop it already! In the Armageddon's Blade campaign you'll find enough "evidences" which should convince even the likes of you. And in M&M VI and VII there are tons of additional information. I implore you - play at least the mentioned games before posting any more of your theorycraftings. No one is taking you seriously.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 29 Sep 2010, 18:24

The Hive-Kreegans were not ectinct during the Restoration War. Colony Zod in Eofol is also a Hive. ;|

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Unread postby XEL II » 29 Sep 2010, 20:04

Slayer, you're just making up all this stuff about Kreegans arriving from portals, there is no evidence to support it in any game. As for "demons get their power from Fiery Realm", it's just referring to the fact that the Fiery Realm is a Kreegan-infested planet.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Tress » 29 Sep 2010, 20:26

Fiery realm may just as well be some planet they have finished down in their locust style, and terraformed to their needs. How they got there - well that is open for debate, did they used ancient gates, or their own design.After all Korak states that Kreegan have infiltrated network centuries ago. Can assume they can use clusters of it, or at least they posses means to make connection with already infested world.
Just wondering, why in the hell Lucifer needed Armageddons blade to set world on fire, if reckoning proved to be so destructive to Kreegan race. Isnt that shooting themselves in feet.
I was pointing to the screenshot as evidence to the sparsity of evidence to the origins of the Kreegans in Heroes III. What evidence there is suggests that the Kreegans come from the Inferno cities and that creating a volcano (which cannot be a small act of magic or technology) is key to creating a Inferno city.
Actually for some reason I always had impression that Kreegans in evil campaign of homm3 used Nighon created tunnels to walk below Avlee and set up outpost above them. Not magically appeared out of think air.

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Unread postby XEL II » 29 Sep 2010, 20:43

Actually, by the time Reckoning occured Kreegans were wiped out fom the face of Enroth.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Zenofex » 29 Sep 2010, 20:49

Just wondering, why in the hell Lucifer needed Armageddons blade to set world on fire, if reckoning proved to be so destructive to Kreegan race. Isnt that shooting themselves in feet.
It could be speculated that after the destruction of the Hive in Enroth (and the Queen along with it) and the death of Zenofex/Xenofex, the Kreegans found themselves in a delicate situation where a war of attrition would have been disastrous, so Lucifer decided to use the nukes. After all, Armageddon's Blade grants the wielder's army immunity to the spell and thus makes it easy to get rid of the nasty locals quickly and somewhat safely. In theory at least, as it turned out.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 29 Sep 2010, 21:01

Well, didn't it say somewhere, that he became barking mad?

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 29 Sep 2010, 21:33

Secret_Holder wrote:The Hive-Kreegans were not ectinct during the Restoration War. Colony Zod in Eofol is also a Hive. ;|

Image
Colony Zod looks nothing like any Inferno that I have ever seen and where are the VOLCANOES! Completely different architecture, if I was not informed I would assume they were a different type of creature all together.

Image
Contrast the Inferno with Colony Zod.

The logical explanation for that the Hive-Kreegans is that the Nighon Overlords never formed an alliance with the Hive-Kreegans and thus the latter never got seriously involved in the war, except to prevent Roland's arrival. As Catherine says in Armageddon's blade.

"During the Restoration Wars the Kreegans were of minor concern,"

Given their prominent role in the Restoration Wars, Katherine saying that is like a German after WWII saying "during World War II the Americans were of little concern".

The reason that the Kreegans were of little concern (relatively speaking) was due to the lack of support from their Hive-Kreegan brethren, which are far more powerful due to technology and resistances.
Secret_Holder wrote: Slayer, you're just making up all this stuff about Kreegans arriving from portals, there is no evidence to support it in any game. As for "demons get their power from Fiery Realm", it's just referring to the fact that the Fiery Realm is a Kreegan-infested planet.
There is direct evidence in Might and Magic XI to that effect. The imps in Anskram Keep emerge from portals to another plane.

Shall I send screenshots of imps emerging from these portals or will you stop pretending I have no evidence to back me up.
Secret_Holder wrote: Actually for some reason I always had impression that Kreegans in evil campaign of homm3 used Nighon created tunnels to walk below Avlee and set up outpost above them. Not magically appeared out of think air.
It's not Av Lee, indeed not even close. It's an area of south-eastern Erathia, miles from Eofol or anywhere else but Erathia.

The 'underlings' are not the Dungeon Overlords as it would not mention them in the second-tense. They are either the Hive-Kreegans (they would have the technology to easily create the volcano) or more likely they are local supporters (the scenario mentions a 'local shaman sympathetic to our cause nearby'.

Zenofex wrote: It could be speculated that after the destruction of the Hive in Enroth (and the Queen along with it) and the death of Zenofex/Xenofex, the Kreegans found themselves in a delicate situation where a war of attrition would have been disastrous, so Lucifer decided to use the nukes. After all, Armageddon's Blade grants the wielder's army immunity to the spell and thus makes it easy to get rid of the nasty locals quickly and somewhat safely. In theory at least, as it turned out.
With the destruction of the Hive in Enroth, Lucifer Kreegan (a Gate-Kreegan) decided that the remaining Hive-Kreegans could be written off and therefore he proceeded to proceed with the 'nuking policy'.

That is because he unlike the Hive-Kreegan Xenofex does not have biological goals in mind and given his failure to conquer Erathia together with Nighon, fears for his prospects of conquering it and expanding the Inferno network beyond Eofol.

Thus the logical thing to do at this point is to create an item that will 'set the world on fire' and by so doing allow Lucifer to spread the Inferno network to the entire world unopposed (even if it means destroying all but one of the existing Infernos and the remaining Hive-Kreegans). Armageddon's blade is a substitute, to carry out the purpose the locust like Hive-Kreegans were to carry out but failed.

That purpose being of course to render the world a barren life-less wasteland, ripe for Inferno colonization.

Armageddon's Blade makes no sense for a biological lifeform like the Hive-Kreegans, because it would destroy the resources of the planet which would not diminish just because they have (temporarily) failed to conquer the world. Losing is just a temporary setback as no threat is posed to any Kreegan worlds by losing in Colony.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 29 Sep 2010, 22:12

Slayer, please, your interest in the subject is commendable but you simply can't keep posting this conjectural crap without substance to back it up. Where is it EVER stated, ingame or otherwise that there are two species of Kreegan as you describe? Where?? Conjecture, conclusions, different art direction between games, logical assumptions and such do NOT count.
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Unread postby Zenofex » 29 Sep 2010, 22:14

Secret_Holder wrote:Well, didn't it say somewhere, that he became barking mad?
Can't remember precisely, but I think the accusations of "madness" were imputed to Lucifer by his enemies only, i.e. they are heavily biased and do not take into account the Kreegans' actual goals with the creation of Armageddon's Blade at all.
@Slayer, again and again you get it all wrong. There is no use in pointing your innumerable mistakes, you are too deep in your own fantasy alternative of the M&M universe. I just don't understand how do you have the courage to continue arguing when it is so painfully obvious that you don't know even the basics of the lore, let alone its details.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 29 Sep 2010, 22:27

Colony Zod looks nothing like any Inferno that I have ever seen and where are the VOLCANOES! Completely different architecture, if I was not informed I would assume they were a different type of creature all together.
Where are the volcanoes in the Infernos?
Yes they look different, but seeing as there is an Eofolian-Kreegan alliance (some of the Inferno heroes are human), I'd say that the architecture in the Infernos is Eofolian, not Kreegan.

And please stop misquoting me.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 29 Sep 2010, 23:06

Corlagon wrote:Slayer, please, your interest in the subject is commendable but you simply can't keep posting this conjectural crap without substance to back it up. Where is it EVER stated, ingame or otherwise that there are two species of Kreegan as you describe? Where?? Conjecture, conclusions, different art direction between games, logical assumptions and such do NOT count.
I'm sorry Corlagon but that is where we DIFFER! They DO count because it is the purpose of TEXT to be UNDERSTOOD, not for the text to limit our understanding!

The conclusion that logically follows from everything, text, art, creature abilities, so on is that there are two different basic basic forms of Kreegan.

If you are to refuse to imagine anything at all, if you are to insist on backing up everything with a strict text reference, then you are condemning yourself to stride an immense contradiction, that between Might and Magic VI to VIII and Heroes of Might and Magic VI-VIII+Might and Magic IX.

Because the whole universe was hardly written by one person, it is necessary sometimes to invent extra stuff in order to bring all references into harmony.
Secret_Holder wrote: Where are the volcanoes in the Infernos?
Yes they look different, but seeing as there is an Eofolian-Kreegan alliance (some of the Inferno heroes are human), I'd say that the architecture in the Infernos is Eofolian, not Kreegan.

And please stop misquoting me.
Eofol was inhabited not by humans but by the Halflings who were expelled from their homeland by their Kreegans (An old Shadows of Death manual I think is the source for this). There is no Eofol/Kreegan alliance, the original nation of Eofol was pretty much wiped off the face of the Earth (well Colony).

The volcanoes Secret_Holder are at the back, the dark mountains with the dips in them.

When I ask, why no volcanoes I am referring to the only piece of evidence I have (I would be happy were anyone to post more) as to how Inferno cities are actually created.

Image

Creating a volcano is no small feat, something that one is not allowed to do in the game. It is logically clear enough that the amount of resources and time required must be vast, so why go through the bother of creating a brand-new volcano just to build an Inferno city?

This not only proves that the Inferno dwelling Kreegans emerge from portals for if the army arrived from elsewhere, then a huge army could have been for less resources and in less time be assembled instead, capturing a local human or elven town to serve as a base and then proceeding to deal with the Gold Dragon Queen (the only reason they are there at all).

Since volcanoes are so evidently important to the Kreegans setting up in the place, where are the Volcanoes around Colony Zod. Why doesn't it have a name like 'Enkindle' either.

Instead it looks rather like you would expect from a biological creature whose environmental rating is about -1000, it is a barren eroded landscape stripped bare of nutrients, but not lava-land because you can't eat lava.

If the Kreegans need a Volcano for something like geothermal energy, then why does Colony Zod not have loads of volcanoes around it?
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